CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #1

[theirmommy]

Open handed spanking is not going to leave any marks that a teacher could see. So I think it is apparent that the abuse was much worse than either of those scenarios.

Correct. I wasn’t implying and nor did I say that the abused the girl received, that is well documented, was from open hand spanking. I was asking for the article where the children refer to receiving open hand spankings.


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[KaaBoom]

I always feel really weird when white people adopt several kids from a specific race, like, these two only adopted black kids. Why is that? And someone might be thinking "well, why not?", and that is absolutely valid too. There is NOTHING wrong about only adopting black children. I'm not saying that, since they are white, they should exclusively adopt white children. I'm not saying that black children are unwhorthy of being adopted. What I'm saying is that I always feel weird when white people go above and beyond just to adopt black kids, or hispanic kids, or asian kids, and so on. It doesn't feel right to me, it always seems like they're making it about them and about the image of themselves that they want to be perceived by everyone else. And I'm aware that white people are not the only ones that do this. I'm sorry if this is confusing or if this doesn't seem relevant to this case.

I agree. That attitude is self-centered. They pick children like they are accessories. What color car should I get? What color coat should I get? What color child should I get? Our society is just messed up.

 

[pinklilies]

Might be this article. KaaBoom linked to actual docs. I'll see if I can bring that fwd too.

Abigail said that Jennifer was angry because a penny fell out of her pocket. She said Jennifer dragged her to the bathroom and submerged her head under cold water in the tub, then spanking her repeatedly with a closed fist. Abigail said she was grounded, and sometimes her punishment would include missing lunch. Abigail’s siblings didn’t all back her up. One sibling said that Abigail lied about the beating and had only been given a time out. That sibling also said that the parents only used open hands for spanking. Another sibling said they weren’t spanked or made to go without food.
https://heavy.com/news/2018/03/jennifer-sarah-hart-six-children-drove-off-cliff-cause-crash/

The children were probably each giving their own experiences of the punishment they each received. One child may have received harsher punishments than the other. Some may have just been grounded and never received physical punishments or been deprived of food. One or the other may have got away with everything, it all sometimes happens in big families.


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[theirmommy]

Although I respect your caution, and of course there have been cases of troubled children making false accusations, I have to say that any “rush to judgement” you may have seen here is based on a number of factors stemming from WS members’ vast experience in child abuse cases.

First of all, it is appropriate to initially believe rather than doubt a child’s story of abuse. There are multiple children claiming abuse of some kind. The neighbors’ stories are credible. The bruises on the child in MN tell a story, as does the conviction of Sara for abuse. Children in abusive families will often deny that a sibling was abused or minimize it to protect themselves. This family moved two or three times due to CPS investigations. That would make new arrangements for therapy, support and monitoring difficult since their moves involved different states. They were putting Devonte in troubling situations for a child of his background. They kept the children isolated, not even obeying the law requiring notice of homeschooling to the local district. Learning more about the backgrounds of these children doesn’t change what happened. That the children were available for adoption means that their backgrounds were very troubled. And based on the women’s social media, the children were used as props in the positive image these two women presented to the world, much like the Turpin’s Disneyland and Las Vegas trips.

Sticking up for children is the norm on WS. And, of course, LE has now stated that the drive off the cliff was deliberate. So whatever perceived “rush to judgement” that occurred was a correct judgement, based on the above factors.

No one wants a repeat of the false memory abuse accusations in the ‘80’s. But as we have seen in the Turpin case, there are those who inexplicably question even abuse observed by LE and doctors. I’m sure more of the story of the Harts will unfold in time, but I doubt new information will undermine opinions formed here on this thread.
JMO

I will always take a child’s side in any situation, I will
Always stuck up for a child, especially when there is abuse. I simply stated that it’s my opinion that there is a lot of judgement on this thread. And there is.

We’re suppose to be factually based. And if we’re staying an opinion, we’re suppose to state it’s our opinion. There are opinions on this thread that are being presented as fact.

Back to reading.


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[dixiegirl1035]

I don't recall if it was a real case or one on television, but there was one case that determined whether the headlights were on during a crash. If the headlights were on during a crash, apparently the filaments did something specific that they could determine that they were on. Just thinking about this because I was wondering what time of day or night this happened. My guess they sat there until they could not see a car coming from either way, and then accelerated.

Does anyone have verification that two of the three that are missing are the two that went to the neighbors, to ask for food and or to call Child Protective Services?

 

[Aescwynn]

A few thoughts about the video of Sarah's 37th birthday:

1.) It is almost two years old. She turned 37 on April 8, 2016. She was due to turn 39 in 6 days.
2.) Even being two years old, the children are really small. The young girl with the missing teeth is also not in it much. The oldest boy is filmed playing by the water or in a group with the other children. It is obvious that 4 of the children were either easier to direct, or more highly favored.
3.) The shoes the children (and I think the women too) are wearing are not expensive. Target perhaps? I don't see name brands and they seem to lack support that would be common in more expensive shoes. The shoes also look fairly worn. I would guess they were used for every day wear or maybe they were used or hand me downs. I only mention this because it seems very normal for people with a large number of children and not a lot of money.
4.) I don't see a single candid action on that video. It all appears staged to me.
5.) It seems odd to me to spend all that time filming and taking pictures that were obviously choreographed during a birthday get away. It did have a "promo" vibe to it. The "meditation" scene was nice looking but the rest seemed painfully staged.
6.) While the video doesn't scream "I'm going to run my children and myself off a cliff," there is something about it that does seem really *off*.

Yes, agreed with you all the way.
Much earlier in the thread, I mentioned that the situation gave off a wannabe reality show vibe; and the more I see and find out about these women, the more I believe that this may be what was happening. Perhaps these two decided that the best way to spread their message of peace and love and progressive politics and everything else they were about, would be to adopt a big clan of African-American children from abusive backgrounds *and try to get on TV. They'd be the anti-Duggars! An LBGT couple, showing the incredible magic that they worked on these poor, sad children.

To that end, the kids had to be "on" at all times when there was any chance of contact with an outside. And when the stress became too much, and a schoolteacher noticed something was wrong with one of the little ones, then the kids were withdrawn from the outside world, from then on to paraded out only under controlled circumstances.

In 2018, the kids were starting to become young adults and just maybe not so easily controlled. Maybe those dreams of fame and the Hart name (the Hart couple, in particular) becoming synonymous with the idea of progressive parenting were falling apart. Desperation set in as one or both understood the truth...

As always, MOO and speculation
*edited for clarification

 

[Oconn89]

A few thoughts about the video of Sarah's 37th birthday:
3.) The shoes the children (and I think the women too) are wearing are not expensive. Target perhaps? I don't see name brands and they seem to lack support that would be common in more expensive shoes. The shoes also look fairly worn. I would guess they were used for every day wear or maybe they were used or hand me downs. I only mention this because it seems very normal for people with a large number of children and not a lot of money.

Second pair of shoes show a “gore-Tex” tag which indicates price point. These are all very nice hiking shoes, and plenty of high end brands sell “hiking shoes” which are different than hiking boots.


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[bluesneakers]

I always feel really weird when white people adopt several kids from a specific race, like, these two only adopted black kids. Why is that? And someone might be thinking "well, why not?", and that is absolutely valid too. There is NOTHING wrong about only adopting black children. I'm not saying that, since they are white, they should exclusively adopt white children. I'm not saying that black children are unwhorthy of being adopted. What I'm saying is that I always feel weird when white people go above and beyond just to adopt black kids, or hispanic kids, or asian kids, and so on. It doesn't feel right to me, it always seems like they're making it about them and about the image of themselves that they want to be perceived by everyone else. And I'm aware that white people are not the only ones that do this. I'm sorry if this is confusing or if this doesn't seem relevant to this case.

A little OT: Don't feel weird! You are not the only one who has observed this and feels this way. I don't know if it applies to this family, but (I think) what you're trying to describe is referred to as "white savior complex." It's a real thing - people make it more about themselves and aren't actually helping.

Here's an example of white savior complex involving adoption:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...es-white-savior-complex-to-a-whole-new-level/

 

[Zelda1010]

Does anyone have verification that two of the three that are missing are the two that went to the neighbors, to ask for food and or to call Child Protective Services?

The neighbors identified DH & HH in Washington Post for sure. For some, that identification isn't rock solid proof of which kids reached out.

AH is identified as the 2010 six year old victim of abuse in court docs and she was found on the rocks or in the water with her two brothers MH and JH.

DH, HH & SH are missing.

But, first Jen was identified as the driver and now they won't speculate on who was driving. Maybe the IDs are all still subject to change, at this point?

 

[LonelyChild]

I feel horrible anytime I even think of this case. It's sad that yet again cps dropped the ball. They should def look more into parents considering adoption. I can't help but feel like maybe Sarah and Jen tried to do away with the kids before and just didn't go through with it for whatever reason. I just get this shady and untrustworthy vibe from them. I feel like Devonte sensed something and that's why he started plotting to run away. I do think he sensed something was going on and that he did plan on running away. I don't know if he got that far and did runaway and maybe that's why the family took off. I do hope devonte and his sisters did run away and got away safely. I keep repeating this but it be a nice solid piece of evidence if neighbors would say if they seen the whole family get into the SUV or just 5 of them. Another part that troubles me is if this was preplanned where the moms knew that they were gonna do this why would they go all the way to California before driving off the cliff? Did they maybe need to work up the nerve? Maybe they attempted to do it else where and the kids faught them on it and that was when the other three kids and dogs escaped if they were in the SUV? I wonder if forensic science can prove if the kids were deceased before going over the cliff cause I've also considered that. It's weird that police now say they don't know who was driving when they went off the cliff after saying it was Jen. If they couldn't remove the bodied in the car until they pulled it back up I imagine the bodies were intact in the SUV. Sarah and Jen didn't look alike so I'm sure it be easy to identify who is who and if not they can always go on DNA but why originally claim it was Jen driving? Maybe they found the bodies and Sarah's hand or arm was reached over to the wheel maybe it could had been a struggle between the two and Sarah was trying to stop her and told the kids to get their seat belts off and try to escape? I'm not sure my theories RN are all over the place I'm sorry. I feel like Jen controlled everyone involved including Sarah and Sarah would follow her lead and take up for her. I do feel like if the other kids were there when the SUV went over the cliff they and the dogs would be there still like the other family members were unless something carried them off into the ocean or else where but I'd believe their would be blood or something if that was the case. I hope Devonte and the sisters are alive in hiding and don't know the family died and are afraid to come out but hopefully they do soon.

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[katydid23]

wow. There are so many deserving children in foster care, NEEDING permanent homes and loving families. And now we are going to make negative judgments towards any white parents who dare adopt black or mixed race kids, because it is 'just off' somehow...:sigh:

 

[KaaBoom]

I have been thinking about this home-schooling thing a lot and it is really bothering me. In order to home school six kids of different ages without electronics, you would need a huge amount of teaching resources and supplies - textbooks, reading material, worksheets, science lab materials, paper, etc... Add to that if any of those kids had learning disabilities, which is very possible if they were really exposed to drugs and alcohol in vitro or as young children as the Hart mothers claim, this would make for an even more challenging situation. Now since they had not registered the kids with either Oregon or WA, this means they would have had absolutely no support from the school districts with educational materials, resources or extra tutoring. My son is home schooled but it is through an interactive video program supported by the district and with the availability of additional resources and supplies, if needed, however, even with that support for just one kid, it is a big commitment. Sure, they reportedly had books to read, construction paper and gardens but what about math and science? Since Jen was the one staying home and "teaching" and she is also the one who appears to have been short-tempered and impatient (judging by what the kids told LE and supported by the worm video), I just cannot realistically imagine her running this very complicated home school. So this makes me feel like these kids were not being prepared in any real way for the outside world. Were they expected to stay with their moms and siblings for the rest of their lives? What was the end game here if it this wasn't supposed to happen?

I don't think that is an uncommon situation for many homeschool children. I subscribe to two YouTube channels of families who travel full time in RVs. One family is American, the other is overseas. They both homeschool their children, and film while they do it. They pull into a rest stop, and tell the kids that it's time to do their school work. Then they whip out a small packet of pamphlets and worksheets and have the kids complete the worksheets. Then 15 minutes later they take off down the road again. They have no text books, or other learning materials because they have no room for them. What kind of education is that? They claim they are educating their kids through travel. I'm sorry but that is no education. That is an endless vacation. I feel scared for these kids futures.

 

[keeleydoll]

“White savior complex” is certainly not the only reason. My brother and sister in law had tried to conceive for nearly 10 years when they fostered their first. She was a Hispanic baby who was placed in the system shortly after birth. They ended up adopting all four siblings from a very bad situation. They are treated beautifully and I know the older kids are still in contact with bio cousins and such who they were close with. The kids could have been purple for all they cared.


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[Aescwynn]

...
I wonder if forensic science can prove if the kids were deceased before going over the cliff cause I've also considered that.
...

That has never occurred to me.
Maybe they went over the edge with a car full of dead bodies.
Maybe ONE of them went over the edge with a car full of dead bodies.

 

[LonelyChild]

That has never occurred to me.
Maybe they went over the edge with a car full of dead bodies.
Maybe ONE of them went over the edge with a car full of dead bodies.

It does seem possible at this point. Maybe one of the moms was cheating or planning to leave as well and that's when the other mom snapped. You never know in this situation my fear is whatever happened won't be known because everyone involved is presumed dead. The kids deserve justice and proper burials.

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[Whiteorchids]

When I was grounded as a young girl it meant I couldn’t go outside and play, ride a bike, do anything with my friends, watch TV, play my stereo. The way I see it these kids in this family were basically always grounded. Neighbors never saw them outside playing, no TV in the house, no outside friendships so basically I think being grounded only meant no food. [emoji853]

 

[Breamworthy]

Yes, agreed with you all the way.
Much earlier in the thread, I mentioned that the situation gave off a wannabe reality show vibe; and the more I see and find out about these women, the more I believe that this may be what was happening. Perhaps these two decided that the best way to spread their message of peace and love and progressive politics and everything else they were about, would be to adopt a big clan of African-American children from abusive backgrounds *and try to get on TV. They'd be the anti-Duggars! An LBGT couple, showing the incredible magic that they worked on these poor, sad children.

To that end, the kids had to be "on" at all times when there was any chance of contact with an outside. And when the stress became too much, and a schoolteacher noticed something was wrong with one of the little ones, then the kids were withdrawn from the outside world, from then on to paraded out only under controlled circumstances.

In 2018, the kids were starting to become young adults and just maybe not so easily controlled. Maybe those dreams of fame and the Hart name (the Hart couple, in particular) becoming synonymous with the idea of progressive parenting were falling apart. Desperation set in as one or both understood the truth...

As always, MOO and speculation
*edited for clarification

This could also relate to the withholding of food and general malnutrition and lack of age-appropriate physical development others feel they have noticed. Perhaps in their minds, keeping the children smaller and younger looking would increase their chances of getting a reality show.

 

[SATA]

Could they have stopped at the pullout, during the day, for a photo op? In the birthday video, the kids were close to the edge of a scenic spot, making peace signs. If one of the kids fell, the moms would have panicked. The other kids could have been told to get in the SUV to go get help.

Unlikely scenario, an accident, along with the recent CPS visit, could have caused the driver to make an impulsive decision.

Everything is possible.
Very strange case.

Who would choose to die this way? Thinking about the driver.

Boggles mind.

 

[bluesneakers]

“White savior complex” is certainly not the only reason. My brother and sister in law had tried to conceive for nearly 10 years when they fostered their first. She was a Hispanic baby who was placed in the system shortly after birth. They ended up adopting all four siblings from a very bad situation. They are treated beautifully and I know the older kids are still in contact with bio cousins and such who they were close with. The kids could have been purple for all they cared.


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I don't think it's the only reason white people adopt POC. I also said I don't know if it applies to this family. I'm not judging anyone, only trying to reassure claudianunes she doesn't need to feel weird or guilty about her observations. She described something very real and people have legitimate concerns about those situations.

 

[Lilibet]

I will always take a child’s side in any situation, I will
Always stuck up for a child, especially when there is abuse. I simply stated that it’s my opinion that there is a lot of judgement on this thread. And there is.

We’re suppose to be factually based. And if we’re staying an opinion, we’re suppose to state it’s our opinion. There are opinions on this thread that are being presented as fact.

Back to reading.


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I apologize if I misconstrued your post. I was responding to your “rush to judgement” comment and explaining why members had reached their conclusions. It appeared to me that you felt our opinions were unfounded and unfairly judgemental of these women. You made no mention that we weren’t putting “IMO” after our comments. Often the wording itelf makes it clear it’s an opinion. I do agree that some opinions have come across like facts, perhaps due to strong emotions. I’m not sure if I’ve done that and I will be more careful about it in the future, but I do believe that judgements expressed on this thread are mostly warranted based on the facts.
JMO