CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #1

[cady]

Everything is possible.
Very strange case.

Who would choose to die this way? Thinking about the driver.

Boggles mind.

And risk the possibility of survivors......those who were ejected may have been alive for a long time.....autopsies should determine causes of death. JMO

 

[K_Z]

There are are some areas that do not have diverse populations. Did the white couple, hoping to adopt from Russia, live in a diverse area? It could be difficult for children, from some countries, to move to an area where schools have a very small minority population. Would it be more or less selfish to consider the diversity of your area in deciding what countries to adopt from?

Major metro area with nearly 1 million residents. Plenty of diversity, even 100 miles out from the metro.

 

[Gardenista]

Likewise I too do not believe that parents were preparing these kids for success/ post high school education, etc. However, there are Compulsory Education Laws. Kids have to attend school. When a family decides to enroll a child in cyberschool OR in this case "homeschooling", you must register through your school district or if you go outside of your school district, you still must identify your home school district. The cyber schools are charter schools but you still have to identify your school district and it is both the "cyber-school" and home school district that provides "oversight", i.e., that children are doing the work, making progress and achieving benchmarks. Also you would need your home school district for IEP's (individualized education plans) that would provide accommodations for any diagnosis or developmental delay. Cyber school is rigorous, and there is accountability. Students talk with teachers via skype and teachers know when students log in. I've never seen "homeschooling" without computers after working in both education and social work for 20 years though I have no personal experience with cyber school/ homeschooling. If parents decided to roll with a curriculum that does not have computers, I would have to see it, because it would have to be approved by the state department of education. AND there would be oversite to make sure the kids are achieving. FYI if you don't attend school, you're marked truant, and eventually (up to the oversight school) will go before the magistrate.

They didn't register.

 

[K_Z]

Do we know anything about the mental state of the 19 year old? Only asking because I worked in a residential treatment facility for severely abused children. There were 19 and 20 year olds there that functioned at the age of a 10 year old (or lower). I noticed that the males born crack-addicted were especially poorly off, even after being removed at birth. It was basically the place these children ended up when foster/adoptive families could not handle them over time.

We'd see all sorts of weird behaviors. Cutting, stealing food, hoarding food, making drugs, sticking fingers up places they shouldn't be stuck (for hours), attempted grooming of other children, false accusations of staff members (there is a reason we had one leg in the room, one leg outside whenever speaking to a child in the room). After working there for a year and a half, about 3 times the average staff could handle, I quit. The constant biting, kicking, punching, and spitting was a lot to go through on a daily basis. Sure, we had happy moments, but the children would also snap for very little reason, some due to brain damage from being beaten in the head previously. If I felt myself getting frustrated with a child I would reread their case file to regain perspective on what they had been through and why they were acting out.

It's quite possible the 19 year old is/was not able to function in a normal setting. I do think these children suffered abuse, but how much I am unsure of. I don't feel like the family would have run from CPS unless something serious was going on, CPS is usually tries hard to keep families together. It makes me wonder if one of the other 3 was already missing/dead, because stuff really hits the fan when you can't prove to CPS where the child is. Otherwise they likely just monitor you, send you to therapy, groups etc.

JMO, but I think the 19 year old had some serious problems. His appearance in pictures is consistent with some syndromes. We will likely never know what the true situation was with all the kids, and whether they had developmental or intellectual delays, or serious emotional/ behavioral conditions. The likelihood is very high from what we already know that they had serious and persistent issues that should have been addressed in a multidisciplinary way. IMO.

 

[Whiteorchids]

The regular Yukon is the same as a Chevy Tahoe and has 3 rows seating 2, 3 and 3.

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I'm in CA where it happened I read it stopped then accelerated according to the car computer system. I don't remember reading about going 90 after stopped that doesn't sound possible.

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[gcharlie]

Just a word of caution about discussing the backgrounds of these kids prior to adoption and any kind of abuse they may have suffered before they were adopted.

This is the narrative of the adopted mothers. Adoption records are sealed. There is no way, right now, to know the circumstances of these kids early lives.

What we do know with certainty is that there was a criminal conviction of one adoptive mother for abuse and several reports over a number of years to others from the kids themselves that their adoptive parents were abusing them.

If I read correctly, kids in Texas can be put up for adoption if their parents are being sentenced to prison for more than 2 years. Likewise, the death of parent(s) with no other family members willing to take the kids could make them eligible for adoption. My point is that it is entirely possible that these kids were never abused prior to adoption.

 

[human]

Bill Gates was born in 1955, so there were no personal computers when he was a child. The earliest, very basic, ones I can remember came out in the 1970s with the operating systems on cassette tape.



There are some on the extreme end of the environmentalist spectrum who reject technology and electronics, kind of Born Again Amish, in favour of a back to the land lifestyle.

My point was that Bill Gates became a computer genius without being raised with a computer, I think kids will do just dine without one.

I posted articles that some of these back to the land types re thinking electronics are not good for kids work in Silicone Valley . They send their kids to Waldorf schools. It seems that there are some high income people that send their kids to Waldorf type schools.

Kids need a three dimensional life. For instance, what do you learn from a drawing of an apple? A photo? A plastic replica? An actual apple?

Smart boards are a great tool for schools. And there are good things about computers. But children need a foundation in life on which they can build skills and those are learned by dealing with real life.

The Hart kids were isolated in a weird way,

Life is weird to me now. Play dates. What in the heck! We went outside and over to a friend’s house . It was an automatic that your friend was coming out to play unless some event such as chores or relatives visiting happened

 

[SATA]

Sleeping / drugged, premeditated? Or, all just piled in, spontaneous?

Until a recreation of the crash is fully known I am having a hard time visualizing how all six kids and two dogs were airborn. Or was it the time lapse from crash to discovery; high tide, rough surf, predatory animals?

- Very difficult to get into the mindset of a tragedy like this, but I do suspect there is a connection between the ongoing high profile news of the Turpin case, fleeing CPS, extreme paranoia about authority and fear of a similar fate of discovery at play. Someone felt time was up, time ran out. To not spare the children's lives takes it to a cult-like exodus feeling. Imo

100% agree.
From what I have seen, there is a cult-like vibe about them, as with the Turpins.

Did you see the identical "thing" t shirts they wore? Same as the Turpins.

 

[everybodhi]

Likewise I too do not believe that parents were preparing these kids for success/ post high school education, etc. However, there are Compulsory Education Laws. Kids have to attend school. When a family decides to enroll a child in cyberschool OR in this case "homeschooling", you must register through your school district or if you go outside of your school district, you still must identify your home school district. The cyber schools are charter schools but you still have to identify your school district and it is both the "cyber-school" and home school district that provides "oversight", i.e., that children are doing the work, making progress and achieving benchmarks. Also you would need your home school district for IEP's (individualized education plans) that would provide accommodations for any diagnosis or developmental delay. Cyber school is rigorous, and there is accountability. Students talk with teachers via skype and teachers know when students log in. I've never seen "homeschooling" without computers after working in both education and social work for 20 years though I have no personal experience with cyber school/ homeschooling. If parents decided to roll with a curriculum that does not have computers, I would have to see it, because it would have to be approved by the state department of education. AND there would be oversite to make sure the kids are achieving. FYI if you don't attend school, you're marked truant, and eventually (up to the oversight school) will go before the magistrate.

Could this really be true?

The first thing to know is that education is compulsory only for students already enrolled in a public school or children eight years and older.

How to Homeschool in Washington

 

[K_Z]

Likewise I too do not believe that parents were preparing these kids for success/ post high school education, etc. However, there are Compulsory Education Laws. Kids have to attend school. When a family decides to enroll a child in cyberschool OR in this case "homeschooling", you must register through your school district or if you go outside of your school district, you still must identify your home school district. The cyber schools are charter schools but you still have to identify your school district and it is both the "cyber-school" and home school district that provides "oversight", i.e., that children are doing the work, making progress and achieving benchmarks. Also you would need your home school district for IEP's (individualized education plans) that would provide accommodations for any diagnosis or developmental delay. Cyber school is rigorous, and there is accountability. Students talk with teachers via skype and teachers know when students log in. I've never seen "homeschooling" without computers after working in both education and social work for 20 years though I have no personal experience with cyber school/ homeschooling. If parents decided to roll with a curriculum that does not have computers, I would have to see it, because it would have to be approved by the state department of education. AND there would be oversite to make sure the kids are achieving. FYI if you don't attend school, you're marked truant, and eventually (up to the oversight school) will go before the magistrate.

Yes, there are laws in every state regarding homeschooling. And there are LOTS of good homeschool curriculums and online opportunities, if one *wants to* participate. But no one enforces or gets involved UNLESS there is a social services report. If a family births a child who then has no birth certificate, or moves into an area and never registers, and never applies for any services for the child or the family, then no one even knows the child is "there" until or unless there is a formal complaint and police or social services are involved. No one goes door to door looking for homeschooling kids that aren't registered.

The interesting thing to know would be whether or not this family was receiving any state services or financial support on behalf of the kids, or were just making it on Sarah's Kohl's income.

Were the kids ACTUALLY enrolled in medicaid? In which state? SNAP? Supportive payments post adoption until age 18? Social security? Did the family receive any other financial support for the kids? Because then we could see if someone at a state agency dropped the ball on follow thru. As the family moved from MN, to OR, and was only in WA for 10 months, I'm doubtful that the moms applied for state support for them, and clearly never sought dental prosthodontics for the girl missing the front teeth.

And I don't think that financial support received on behalf of the children can be "claimed" as income when applying for things like home loans (for the $375K house they just bought). They must have qualified on their income and savings, credit rating, etc.

 

[human]

It also says in that article Sarah changed her last name to Hart in May of '05. If Gray's video is right that one of them is also 48, not 38ish as originally reported, then this woman seems to have been trying to be something she is not for a long time. Or is Hart Jen's given last name? (eta age discrepancy might be hogwash & yes Sarah probably changed her last name to Jen's in '05)

I'm still waiting for more info about the relationship between the 6 kids. One article I linked before said late this past Thursday they learned all 6 were biologically related. But I haven't seen that elsewhere.

I was struck by the 4 kids being featured in the bday video. Apples and smiles & blowing kisses. Two different shots of young men leaving the bathroom? The kiss to Sarah(?) from AH. Long shots of them smiling & basking in sunshine, even when the other mom is brushing her teeth. Come on....no one is happy all the time! Where are the cute grumpy faces upon waking? Where is the surprise & annoyance from a teen/preteen exiting the toilet & finding Mom with a camera in your face? Why are there so few shots of those two kids? They just don't fit the asthetic? Not exotic enough? Not young enough? They just don't prefer the limelight and their moms respect that (doubt it)?

I do wonder how many answers will come out or if this will all remain a tragic mystery.

I live where there are at least three women who are portraying a fantasy life that people who do not know them, believe. It is incredible to read their FB posts or to hear them talk to others who do not know them in real life. Aside from the adventures, the lives are about their good works and lovely philosophies.

But anyone who knows these women where I live know the truth.

The Harts were very isolated so maybe they could hide their lives better. I wonder though if there are not people who know truths.

It could be their estranged families know a bit of truth.

 

[K_Z]

Just a word of caution about discussing the backgrounds of these kids prior to adoption and any kind of abuse they may have suffered before they were adopted.

This is the narrative of the adopted mothers. Adoption records are sealed. There is no way, right now, to know the circumstances of these kids early lives.

What we do know with certainty is that there was a criminal conviction of one adoptive mother for abuse and several reports over a number of years to others from the kids themselves that their adoptive parents were abusing them.

If I read correctly, kids in Texas can be put up for adoption if their parents are being sentenced to prison for more than 2 years. Likewise, the death of parent(s) with no other family members willing to take the kids could make them eligible for adoption. My point is that it is entirely possible that these kids were never abused prior to adoption.

Remember, parental rights have to be legally severed, and that takes a long time-- 1-2 years of court hearings and social services intervention, AFTER they are opened as a case file. Kids aren't available for adoption because they had a happy home life, or were just a little bit abandoned, or a little bit neglected. At *best*, they are severely, criminally neglected, or abandoned. Most are abused as well. Sibling groups are especially hard to place because of the various ages of the kids. foster parent accommodations, and adoptive parent willingness. Many times sibling groups are split up.

It's interesting to talk with someone who is a guardian ad litem, or works in family court. The stories are incredibly sad, and often astonishing. No child is whisked away from any type of kinship situation and "adopted out" where there is a possibility of any kind of family reunification working out. It's a basic tenet of social work.

 

[everybodhi]

Yes, there are laws in every state regarding homeschooling. And there are LOTS of good homeschool curriculums and online opportunities, if one *wants to* participate. But no one enforces or gets involved UNLESS there is a social services report. If a family births a child who then has no birth certificate, or moves into an area and never registers, and never applies for any services for the child or the family, then no one even knows the child is "there" until or unless there is a formal complaint and police or social services are involved. No one goes door to door looking for homeschooling kids that aren't registered.

The interesting thing to know would be whether or not this family was receiving any state services or financial support on behalf of the kids, or were just making it on Sarah's Kohl's income.

Were the kids ACTUALLY enrolled in medicaid? In which state? SNAP? Supportive payments post adoption until age 18? Social security? Did the family receive any other financial support for the kids? Because then we could see if someone at a state agency dropped the ball on follow thru. As the family moved from MN, to OR, and was only in WA for 10 months, I'm doubtful that the moms applied for state support for them, and clearly never sought dental prosthodontics for the girl missing the front teeth.

And I don't think that financial support received on behalf of the children can be "claimed" as income when applying for things like home loans (for the $375K house they just bought). They must have qualified on their income and savings, credit rating, etc.

Remember the Turpin’s homeschool, registered with the state but registering the papers was the only thing the state ever did.

 

[travelbug]

I see that also as very curious.

If there were two adults and seatbelts, and the rest of the children weren't, that just does not make sense to me at all.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where every single one of the children would not be belted in when both adults were.

I just can't think of one scenario these days.

What could this scenario be that none of them were in seat belts?

I wish we had more information regarding the seat positions. It occurred to me that, if the decision was made in the middle of the night, the adults may have flattened the seat backs to turn the cargo area into a large sleeping area and all of the children were asleep in the back when they went over the cliff.

 

[EstrellaEspectral]

The Hart's are friends with many of my friends. I just wanted to say that the media is really putting them through the ringer here. They are NOTHING like the Turpin's. Many of my friends have taken to facebook to tell their stories of the family and all the stories have been beautiful. Please remember that you do not have the whole story. I'm absolutely appalled that they are being compared to the Turpins.

 

[K_Z]

For some who are wondering how kids can be off the radar of authorities with regard to schooling and services, a common situation by reclusive religious fundamentalists is to have a home birth, attended by a church-based lay traditional midwife, or a mainstream traditional midwife (nurse midwives do not do planned home births in their official role due to insurance and licensing issues).

Traditional midwife is "supposed" to register the birth. Traditional midwife fills out forms and places in the mailbox of the family where the child was born. Wink wink. Family goes out to mailbox and removes the paperwork before the mail is picked up. Voila! The midwife did her job by "doing" the paperwork and placing it in the mailbox. The family has the desired outcome of a child with no birth certificate or social security number.

Moving from place to place with kids who already have birth certificates and social security numbers, and not registering the kids for homeschool or traditional school in the new location, can accomplish the same objective. No record of the kids in the school district. If they do not apply for any services (like medical insurance or social services, SNAP, etc), then there is no record of the kids at all. They are invisible. Until there is a police call, or social services complaint.

 

[everybodhi]

Remember, parental rights have to be legally severed, and that takes a long time-- 1-2 years of court hearings and social services intervention, AFTER they are opened as a case file. Kids aren't available for adoption because they had a happy home life, or were just a little bit abandoned, or a little bit neglected. At *best*, they are severely, criminally neglected, or abandoned. Most are abused as well. Sibling groups are especially hard to place because of the various ages of the kids. foster parent accommodations, and adoptive parent willingness. Many times sibling groups are split up.

It's interesting to talk with someone who is a guardian ad litem, or works in family court. The stories are incredibly sad, and often astonishing. No child is whisked away from any type of kinship situation and "adopted out" where there is a possibility of any kind of family reunification working out. It's a basic tenet of social work.

We have a terrible, racist history, that continues into the present, when it comes to certain mothers.

African American and Native American children represent double the percentage of the foster care population than they do in the general child population

Race and class in the 
US foster care system

 

[K_Z]

Here's another ruse to evade school authorities. Teen begins to be "homeschooled" between middle school and high school (more common), or elementary school and middle school). They simply don't register for 9th grade at the end of 8th grade. 9th graders are typically 14 years old. In most states, kids can drop out at 15 or 16 with parental agreement. Social services have so many younger kids that they seldom notice or look for a 14-15 year old, because at about age 16 they are considered to have aged out of services. The school district seldom reports a non-registration as something worrisome to social services/ truancy-- because the middle school isn't required to report high school registrations, and the high school isn't required to report NON-registrations. They assume the family moved. So the family stays under the radar for a year or so until the 14 year old turns 15 or 16. And if caught, they claim ignorance, and sign the papers for them to drop out.

Happens with relative frequency among families who are motivated/ willing to have a teen drop out.

 

[keeleydoll]

My point was that Bill Gates became a computer genius without being raised with a computer, I think kids will do just dine without one.

I posted articles that some of these back to the land types re thinking electronics are not good for kids work in Silicone Valley . They send their kids to Waldorf schools. It seems that there are some high income people that send their kids to Waldorf type schools.

Kids need a three dimensional life. For instance, what do you learn from a drawing of an apple? A photo? A plastic replica? An actual apple?

Smart boards are a great tool for schools. And there are good things about computers. But children need a foundation in life on which they can build skills and those are learned by dealing with real life.

The Hart kids were isolated in a weird way,

Life is weird to me now. Play dates. What in the heck! We went outside and over to a friend’s house . It was an automatic that your friend was coming out to play unless some event such as chores or relatives visiting happened

Sure, but Waldorf schools focus on creativity and preparing the students for formal learning. They can range from pre-k through middle school but the vast majority of them are pre-k through elementary. It’s not even available for children over the age of 14 anywhere that I’ve seen.

All of my kids are homeschooled. We register with the local school board’s homeschool coordinator and have yearly state testing or evaluation by a licensed teacher or evaluator. Some of their schoolwork is online and some is workbook/textbook based. Once they’re in middle school they have more say in the curriculum and what elective classes they do. They all have extracurriculars of their choice and friends through those, our neighborhood and various homeschool groups. Our oldest is almost 18, has been working the same job and saving a lot of his money for 16mo with an offer of a management position when he turns 18 and solid plans to move out this summer and start work on his Associate’s degree in the fall.

Job applications are now almost exclusively online and there are very few jobs now that don’t require at least some use of technology.

In our experience with public school through 8th grade there was very little by way of real life anything. My son decided to take the “life skills” class and the most relevant thing they did was learn to microwave food. The school district had decided some years ago that ovens and sewing needles were too dangerous.


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[GigTu]

How can people seem so “normal” and be so evil!!!

People who practice deceit and fake personas their entire lives become very good at it. They also live in constant fear of being ousted, which causes them to have outlandish behavior and bizarre actions to avoid being "seen" at all costs. It's one of the signs of narcissism.