CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #3

[musemoon]

Me too! So many of these things that are coming across we strange or "off" are things that we do in my own family. Taken out of context, the majority of these things that the mothers did are my own family's "normal." (We have white and beige furniture, until you go into their bedrooms you can't tell that my kids live in the same house-we're a little OCD on clutter; we do the festival circuit (my 11-year-old son and I are going to Burning Man together this year); I'll admit that I "stage" my photos and they're the ones I share online (I keep the candids, which are often embarrassing for the kids, to myself); partly due to a genetic disorder that I have passed on down the line, my kids and I look a lot younger and smaller than our peers of the same age; we stay up all night; and I am wary of strangers-even the nice ones. (If a woman whom I'd just met had offered to "mentor" my children, I'd have given her a polite "thank you", exchanged contact info, and hoped I'd never hear from her again. Because I think that's weird.)

So many of these things that are coming across as strange to some people are perfectly "normal" to me. Individually, I don't see many red flags when you take some of these things out of context. When you put them all together and look at everything as whole, however, it starts painting a different kind of picture.

I know that it probably won't happen but I would LOVE to hear from a medical professional who had firsthand experience with Sarah, Jen, and the kids. Were there medical concerns about the children's sizes? Did Jen or Sarah ever get treated for a mental illness or personality disorder? What does the children's dentist (assuming they had one) say about the missing teeth? I know that we'll probably never know these things, or it will be a long time if we do, but so far there's only been speculation as to the mental and physical health of the family. I'd really curious about the professional opinions from doctors/counselors/former teachers who knew them and had firsthand experience with them.

Me and my kids are going to Burningman too...I have turned down many offers to "mentor my kids and do their hair" I mean seriously a stranger comes up and says "I can do your child's hair and mentor them" what mother is like "Yah, sure, since I can't seem to parent them myself" It implies you are not doing their hair (Abigail's hair looks gorgeous in the chicken pic) and that you need help raising your kids. We are doing hair today on my kiddo....she throws up if we do it at the salon so we are getting her ready for locks...I've been at it for six hours and we have only a quarter of her head done. She is bipolar and hair triggers violent rages...so do I have to explain that to every stranger the rolls up and offers to do her hair?

Every story has many sides. These women were controlling and abusive and not prepared to raise traumatized kids that "all or nothing jump" in my opinion was more about giving up and going down together than some vindictive murder of their children. By the way regarding food (while I don't think they had any therapeutic intervention) our therapists have pretty much said we need to cut out all sugar from my daughter's diet and focus on gluten free etc....yeah, try enforcing that at home and school when everything has sugar in it.

 

[bears10]

Me too! So many of these things that are coming across as strange or "off" are things that we do in my own family. Taken out of context, the majority of these things that the mothers did are my own family's "normal." We have white and beige furniture, until you go into their bedrooms you can't tell that my kids live in the same house-we're a little OCD on clutter; we do the festival circuit (my 11-year-old son and I are going to Burning Man together this year); I'll admit that I "stage" my photos and they're the ones I share online (I keep the candids, which are often embarrassing for the kids, to myself); partly due to a genetic disorder that I have passed on down the line, my kids and I look a lot younger and smaller than our peers of the same age; we stay up all night; and I am wary of strangers-even the nice ones. (If a woman whom I'd just met had offered to "mentor" my children, I'd have given her a polite "thank you", exchanged contact info, and hoped I'd never hear from her again. Because I think that's weird.)

So many of these things that are coming across as strange to some people are perfectly "normal" to me. Individually, I don't see many red flags when you take some of these things out of context. When you put them all together and look at everything as whole, however, it starts painting a different kind of picture.

I know that it probably won't happen but I would LOVE to hear from a medical professional who had firsthand experience with Sarah, Jen, and the kids. Were there medical concerns about the children's sizes? Did Jen or Sarah ever get treated for a mental illness or personality disorder? What does the children's dentist (assuming they had one) say about the missing teeth? I know that we'll probably never know these things, or it will be a long time if we do, but so far there's only been speculation as to the mental and physical health of the family. I'd really curious about the professional opinions from doctors/counselors/former teachers who knew them and had firsthand experience with them.

I get the vibe they didn’t have many experiences with medical professionals JMO

 

[Quill]

Remind me: Which was the photographer, Jen or Sarah?

Also, I grew up with all kinds of animals, including chickens. Is there some technique for house training a chicken that I have never heard of? The ones I was around pretty much poop at will. The only time we ever had them in the house was when there were young chicks or biddies as we called them. They were kept in a large cardboard tp box and the paper had to changed daily. Ugh, the smell, though... This was just until they were big enough to go to the outdoor coop.

 

[11223344]

There are 83 pictures in this linked article http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2018/04/post_296.html

I'll make some observations and point to specific pictures. As Starkville commented, these pictures do tell a specific story and paint the picture of a happy family. There are some pictures where the kids look genuinely happy. Unknown if the absence of any individual photos of Hannah and Markis is representative of the FB page or if this was an editorial choice by Oregon Live, but images of them are conspicuously absent. The chicken is featured in more shots than these two kids.

Many of the photos are from the past year or so and show the kids in settings outside of festivals and organized events, giving a sense of more balance to their family life. Most of the shots are carefully composed and some are clearly staged or styled, and as a professional photographer, I imagine that Jen shot multiple images of the same scene and selected the best ones for posting.

#7- Devonte, chicken in wading pool with a book and martini glass. Cross reference #73 of boys with wine glasses.

#8- Happy Mothers Day- one of the few pictures I've seen anywhere of a family holiday celebration. Probably taken in 2014.

#14- Sarah and Abigail on an amusement park ride. Relatively recent. Abigail looks genuinely happy.

#15- Jeremiah "giving" Devonte a haircut. Shot taken in West Linn home.

#18- Sierra laying floor in reading room (ref. #28 for finished room) of new home in Woodland. Notice how carefully staged and composed this photo is. Sierra appears to have much longer hair in this picture, given the volume under her bandanna.

#19- Devonte on a rider mower. No idea where this was taken or when. The home in West Linn was in a very steep and hilly neighborhood with smallish lots. The new home in Woodland is on 2 acres with some flat land, but not the type of fencing seen in this picture.

#22- Sierra, Markis and Devonte and the chicken- blackberry harvest. Probably taken summer 2017.

# 25. Devonte, Jeremiah and Abigail wearing eclipse glasses. The August 21, 2017 solar eclipse was 98% in Clark County, WA, but this picture seems to have been taken earlier.

# 27- Living room in new house in Woodland with Devonte using dog as a cushion for reading. Again, this is a carefully staged photo, most likely shot from a ladder or standing on a chair. The furniture in this room is not the same furniture that was in the West Linn living room from years earlier and the room looks immaculate. Room looks very grown up for a household of kids in their early teens.

#73- Jeremiah and Devonte with playing cards, wine glasses, a paint tin and orbital sander on an outdoor deck. I've seen this deck before and believe this is the West Linn house. But what's up with pictures of kids with alcoholic beverage glasses?

#77- Nice, relatively recent picture of Devonte and Jeremiah. They both look happy and relaxed in this portrait. The smiles appear genuine and not as forced as in some of the other posed pictures.

#79- Abigail, chicken in front of greenhouse with snow and paper whites. Taken within the last three months.

#81- Jeremiah, Devonte and Markis in the 2003 GMC Yukon. Notice that both Jeremiah and Devonte are wearing seat belts.

#82. Devonte with seedlings, taken March 2018 in Woodland living room.

There's still more new pictures in there, but I don't have comments for all of them.

So, in one of the articles it talked about them volunteering at a farm and a food co-op thing. It's quite possible some of the photos are from other places and not in their yard at all. #19, #22

I was curious about the types of glasses used in the pics as well. Could be thought of as funny I guess, in pic #73 it threw me off that 2 boys that age would be on back deck in underwear and getting pictures taken. Why wouldn't they be in shorts? It's off. As well as the wine glasses.
The other thing was the distension of the stomach of I think it was Jeremiah and the thinness of Devonte. I may have them switched, one has face in a book, other sunglasses on.

In pic #50 Devonte has "We all matter" written on his forehead. I don't want to start a race debate here, but treading carefully...as a black male teenager being raised by white women, I question the women's knowledge or acceptance of racial disparity in society, and what was up with that.

 

[mtnlites]

From a photographer's perspective I see the #staged" photos as a a passion to be creative via photography.

The pictures of the kids posted on FB remind me of images we might see in a magazine or an ad for a product or service. I dont see the photos necessarily as being exploitive but a means to express one's creative side via photography. My niece is a photographer and she takes a lot of these kinds of pictures. This in my unbiased opinion.

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Half the Instagram and Facebook posts I see anymore are "staged" photos (including my own). It's a great time to be an amateur photographer. We got my 6-year-old her first camera for Christmas. She's as bad as any adult I know-she'll make us re-take a shot several times if she's unhappy with the lighting or composition.

 

[human]

Ugh. Now I cannot find them. They were posted not too long ago. The articles that have the info I am going to discuss.

1. In Montana with the rollover accident, the man says he does not think it ws an accident. He and his wife rented a trailer. I wonder if they paid. Sounds like it.

2. I think they were the type that got a lot of things for free. Visiting someone they met on FB. She probably had a nice home. Pictures of them saying “thank you.” For what? It looks like one time they got free books.

3. Now some people are coming forward on witnessing behavior they did not like such as Sarah hurting a child for being selfish. Sounds like Sarah was as vicious as Jen.

4. What is with the pushed down cinder block wall in their driveway?

 

[Silver~Bell]

Blow up the picture of Sarah's teeth - looks like clear braces. Markis has malocclusion and his right incisor is chipped. Just a remark.

Other remarks (I finally remembered my password after several years of not posting on WS):

As to Hannah's front teeth knocked out whole - I had four front teeth knocked out in the same fashion, due to a terrible car wreck. It takes a large amount of force to knock them out whole. Something I'm wondering is that ONE tooth is shown knocked out in the post by Jen, not two. Did TWO get knocked out at once, or just one, and then another one later? I have never heard of an accidental avulsion where the tooth and the person were not rushed to a dentist in order to attempt to reinsert and save the tooth. BTW, if it happens to you, place the tooth in a container of fresh whole milk and get to the dentist. I can't wrap my head around someone just taking a picture of the tooth and not seeking care.

Finally, as to teacher salaries - I STARTED at $51,000, and that didn't include bonuses for student performance on the state tests, nor extra pay for tutoring sessions. Salaries vary by school district. It is not difficult to go from one state to another IF they have "reciprocity" without a lot of other hoops. But some states make it very difficult to get a teaching certificate as a transferring teacher, even if you were considered a great teacher in another state and even had a more rigorous training. Some states offer very low pay and even a low-level management job would pay more.

 

[DatelineFan]

Being in a abusive relationship in the past I constantly received threats of what my abuser would do to me if I left or told anyone. They control you by mentally manipulating and abusing with threats and demeaning your self esteem as well as physical abuse.

I can respect that. I have a friend who has two children and finally left her abuser. I can't excuse someone staying around and watching 6 children starved and abused for over a decade. I can't. I'm sorry.

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[Sleuth99]

From a photographer's perspective I see the #staged" photos as a a passion to be creative via photography.

The pictures of the kids posted on FB remind me of images we might see in a magazine or an ad for a product or service. I dont see the photos necessarily as being exploitive but a means to express one's creative side via photography. My niece is a photographer and she takes a lot of these kinds of pictures. This in my unbiased opinion.

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Yea it's creative for the photographer but when you have a family there tends to be video footage that comes with it too... and in that footage you would see the children interacting, talking and supporting the "fun" they're having in the still photos. This seems like it's being framed for the audience and not participatory for the children. They look like objects within a frame rather than subjects with agency.


IMO

 

[musemoon]

I get the vibe they didn’t have many experiences with medical professionals JMO

No but it was mentioned that they had food issues before adoption, so maybe their control stemmed from wanting to control that. Who knows.

 

[cady]

I think that all families are quirky, but the longer I live, the more I see how pervasive some form of abuse is (and was) in families that I have heard about. For mine, it was psychological abuse by an alcoholic father. So, as much as we tried, as adults, to get past it, we were all permanently affected by the sadness and regret of the family dysfunction. And we could all be as snide and mean as he was. I wish that when people decide to have a family, they would think long and hard about what that really means and how fragile and unique each individual's happiness and well being are. And what a responsibility it is, to see to the needs of everyone involved. JMO

 

[Starkville]

So, I was wondering what may have escalated at home leading to Devonte reaching out for food. Escalated punishment/withholding. Something was going on prior to child services being called or I assume Devonte wouldn't have been running to neighbors. It was less then a year ago, I think, Hannah ran next door.
So, along with him asking for a stockpile of food which sounds like he was planning something type of move maybe? What happened at home to risk it all?
Markis, now 19, could potentially register for certain things. Buy things? Bus Tickets? Uber? Online registrations? Look for biological family members, can't do searches til a certain age I think. Maybe they'd gotten online somehow through an iPod (music was big) or snuck online or one was trusted?
Then I was also thinking that no wonder no electronics because nowadays, social media and all the info online, they could have connected and told someone. I think they were pretty fearful of going to any of their friends, because they'd tell their parents. The police? From some articles it looks like some conditioning that police officers kill black people in relation to Travon Martin and when police came those few times, nothing changed? Then the claims true or not about KKK and cross burning, threats in community, things being said, the kids may have been very fearful of the outside world in general due to whatever was being portrayed, and the lack of close outside relationships.
I'm assuming probably select info was told to them because a lot of the reports from people who knew them are radically different. They complained of threats, no calls to police in Oregon, where the burning cross thing supposedly also happened. They reportedly told people they were moving due to that as well. Then became even more secluded.
I would think for Devonte to make the decision to come clean to neighbors and need daily food, sounds very severe punishments and things were coming undone next door prior to child services visit. I wonder what will be found out

You bring up a good point, about Markis being old enough to act on his own.

BUT it it makes me wonder how he would have gone about it. As an adult in the world, you need at least a birth certificate and a SS#. You can’t get a legit job without them. What if his parents were keeping those documents from him?

Can you imagine the response if he had said “Mom, I want to leave now. Can I have my birth certificate and Social Security card?”

Those kids were pretty much hobbled, their wings clipped. How do you apply for services if you don’t have documentation? I’ll bet they didn’t have a single academic transcript. A vaccination record. What happens to kids off the grid when they want to join conventional society?

 

[bears10]

No but it was mentioned that they had food issues before adoption, so maybe their control stemmed from wanting to control that. Who knows.

Wasn’t it mentioned that *Jen and Sarah claimed* they had food issues before adoption?

 

[SATA]

From a photographer's perspective I see the #staged" photos as a a passion to be creative via photography.

The pictures of the kids posted on FB remind me of images we might see in a magazine or an ad for a product or service. I dont see the photos necessarily as being exploitive but a means to express one's creative side via photography. My niece is a photographer and she takes a lot of these kinds of pictures. This in my unbiased opinion.

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The photo is crap, in my opinion.
The kids have plastered on smiles and it does not look comfortable with those chickens - at all. You can tell from their expressions and body language.

I would prefer photos of chickens being chickens and kids being kids. Even waffles being waffles.

Hate those staged photos, just not my taste.

 

[Sleuth99]

Me and my kids are going to Burningman too...I have turned down many offers to "mentor my kids and do their hair" I mean seriously a stranger comes up and says "I can do your child's hair and mentor them" what mother is like "Yah, sure, since I can't seem to parent them myself" It implies you are not doing their hair (Abigail's hair looks gorgeous in the chicken pic) and that you need help raising your kids. We are doing hair today on my kiddo....she throws up if we do it at the salon so we are getting her ready for locks...I've been at it for six hours and we have only a quarter of her head done. She is bipolar and hair triggers violent rages...so do I have to explain that to every stranger the rolls up and offers to do her hair?

Every story has many sides. These women were controlling and abusive and not prepared to raise traumatized kids that "all or nothing jump" in my opinion was more about giving up and going down together than some vindictive murder of their children. By the way regarding food (while I don't think they had any therapeutic intervention) our therapists have pretty much said we need to cut out all sugar from my daughter's diet and focus on gluten free etc....yeah, try enforcing that at home and school when everything has sugar in it.

Ummm but did you catch Sierra's hair under the scarf?? Abigail's hair has a looser coil and a wash conditioner and go could have been her style that she did on her own.

And I've never heard of getting someone ready for locks... can you elaborate.[emoji848]


IMO

 

[catastrophe_]

http://katu.com/news/local/woman-says-she-reported-cruel-treatment-by-jennifer-and-sarah-hart

In the top pic at this link, what is going on with Markis's jaw?

IMO, looks like he has swollen parotid glands...

 

[mtnlites]

Ummm but did you catch Sierra's hair under the scarf?? Abigail's hair has a looser coil and a wash conditioner and go could have been her style that she did on her own.

And I've never heard of getting someone ready for locks... can you elaborate.[emoji848]


IMO

I think she's referring to dreadlocks.

 

[Blue5591]

Yes, but 19, adopted in 2006? 12 years old, he would remember his birthday and real name where he is from. And probably his siblings right?

He would have been 7 in 2006.

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[Sleuth99]

I think she's referring to dreadlocks.

... I'm talking about **getting ready** for locks... how do you get ready?


IMO

 

[bears10]

... I'm talking about **getting ready** for locks... how do you get ready?


IMO

OP said her daughter is bipolar and getting her hair done triggers violent rages. Perhaps that has something to do with “getting ready”. OP made a comment in passing, not sure why she is being singled out and how it’s relevant to the thread. JMO