CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #16

[Karinna]

BBM
Do you have that? LOL

My point is... regardless, I still think it creates doubt. Unless one of these sides put Dan on the stand and there is something definitive, there will be doubt. Period. Showing one record where his card is being used in places in Hawaii, then showing others that show his IP was in San Diego.... creates doubt... showing a phone record that shows numbers incoming/outgoing on Jan 31 and Feb 1st that happen to show some numbers in Hawaii, doesn't tell me that he was in Hawaii. When I see these records pop up on the live stream screen, the first thing I look for are relevant dates (not just Dan's records) where are the relevant dates in the stuff the prosecutor showed today?

I would also like to know IF LE actually checked these records... or did they leave it up to the defense Forensic Computer guy to look? This does not appear to be part of LE's investigation, which is what the defense has been saying.

All JMO

They need to get an IP expert up there to verify IP addresses are not 100% reliable, and explain how it all works, IMO.

 

[Mony Mony]

So when La Rock was going through the IP addresses, he said something to the effect that the addresses were mostly SD, then he listed a bunch of cities which he stated were in southern California. He included Cupertino in that list. For me, he lost all credibility at that point. Cupertino is NorCal.

The problem I have with the IP addresses is that they are definitely not consistent and the locale can change depending on how the search is done, or if a VPN was used.

IMO, those debit card purchases are way more reliable for proving the location on a transaction. I don't understand why they are not accepted for proof of location.

 

[missy1974]

Do you have a link to prove where DK stole anything from Joey? TIA.

For the record, I said "I believe" ... but will post the link to testimony and a summary... paypal employee testimony Day 40 Part 2 around the 20:00 mark.

I won't list all the payments or money transferred that they went through, but here are the one's that IMO would be 'stealing' from Joey through the paypal account...

Feb 10th $900

Feb 11th $200

Feb 12th $800

Feb 12th $3000 - used union bank for transaction.

Feb 12th - $1000 - also from bank account

Feb 13th $3000 e-check

Feb 6th Dan requested payment (assuming it was for $800) … then cancelled it. Then on the 12th that payment of $800 was made to Dan.

Feb 10th - in activity log, User Reset Password. With IP addy. Showed DK's paypal record from Feb 10th, showing same IP address. 70.95.65.75 (we saw this IP address in Dan's Paypal records)

Another password change on Feb 12th. Lots of things with passwords going on from 10-12th.

 

[missy1974]

IMO, It's only because people and the DT are throwing confusion into the mix is why it doesn't make sense.
As long as the jury understands is all that matters, as they will ultimately be the triers of fact.

so you can make sense of that phone record? Can you tell me where in that phone record it "proves" that Dan was in Hawaii?

 

[missy1974]

Yet the investigators found that Joseph McStay had NEVER deleted any checks.

Unless there is a missing computer.... where is the device with the user Josepe-Lap?

 

[missy1974]

They need to get an IP expert up there to verify IP addresses are not 100% reliable, and explain how it all works, IMO.

The State does need to do that... we will see if they actually do in rebuttal

 

[Karinna]

(quote)

There are several online services that display your IP address as well as the city, state, or country associated with it. Additionally, these services can display this information for any other IP address entered into the site. Often, this information is associated with where the ISP is located and not the exact location of the computer with that IP address.
I want to find the exact physical address of an IP
There is no method of associating an exact physical geographical address or the computer associated with an IP address available to an end-user.
Keep in mind that an IP address could be spoofed, stolen, or behind a proxy and using its IP address. If it's behind a proxy, you may also be able to report abuse to the proxy service and they may be able to track down the real IP address.
How do I determine the physical location of an IP address?

 

[Karinna]

The State does need to do that... we will see if they actually do in rebuttal

Yes, i hope the state does bring it up in rebuttal.

 

[smr]

The State does need to do that... we will see if they actually do in rebuttal

Maybe they could call DK as their IP address expert, who will definitely help their case.

 

[Karinna]

Unless there is a missing computer.... where is the device with the user Josepe-Lap?

Maybe CM stole it and got rid of it just like JM & SM's wallet, purse and credit cards that are still missing?

 

[missy1974]

So when La Rock was going through the IP addresses, he said something to the effect that the addresses were mostly SD, then he listed a bunch of cities which he stated were in southern California. He included Cupertino in that list. For me, he lost all credibility at that point. Cupertino is NorCal.

The problem I have with the IP addresses is that they are definitely not consistent and the locale can change depending on how the search is done, or if a VPN was used.

IMO, those debit card purchases are way more reliable for proving the location on a transaction. I don't understand why they are not accepted for proof of location.

one piece of evidence shows he was in Hawaii... Another says he was in San Diego or that area... they both can't be true. The transactions could be explained by giving his card to someone (maybe a girlfriend?)... the IP's could be explained by a VPN, but neither have been "proven".

This is why I say I am not sure... which doesn't automatically conclude for me that "Dan did it", but it does bring in some doubt about Hawaii. Unfortunately, we don't have all the discovery, LE interviews, etc. I really wish we did (I've been spoiled in other cases where we have everything) I actually believe that at least Maline really does believe Dan did this LOL I'm not so sure of that ... but they are doing their job and creating reasonable doubt IMO

 

[Karinna]

For the record, I said "I believe" ... but will post the link to testimony and a summary... paypal employee testimony Day 40 Part 2 around the 20:00 mark.

I won't list all the payments or money transferred that they went through, but here are the one's that IMO would be 'stealing' from Joey through the paypal account...

Feb 10th $900

Feb 11th $200

Feb 12th $800

Feb 12th $3000 - used union bank for transaction.

Feb 12th - $1000 - also from bank account

Feb 13th $3000 e-check

Feb 6th Dan requested payment (assuming it was for $800) … then cancelled it. Then on the 12th that payment of $800 was made to Dan.

Feb 10th - in activity log, User Reset Password. With IP addy. Showed DK's paypal record from Feb 10th, showing same IP address. 70.95.65.75 (we saw this IP address in Dan's Paypal records)

Another password change on Feb 12th. Lots of things with passwords going on from 10-12th.

From my understanding DK took money out to help keep JM's business going while he was missing. Same as SB was doing and had at that time had CM & DK helping her to do that. Not aware then that CM was the culprit that murdered her family members, and CM stole a further $5,000 from SB, and promised he would pay her back but never did.

 

[katydid23]

pretty good points being made by Imes during about 4 minutes in---first he went over the resume, telling the jury that LaRoque had never worked for the prosecution or LE before. Only the defense.

And then went into how the expert professional witness called the defendant by his nick name, Chase. Said it seemed a bit familiar and biased.

[which will be important foundation for later when LaRoque gets called out for being biased in his exhibits, and leaving out important info]

And then he reminded the jury that the IP addie is not determined by the device, but by the provider. And he tries to introduce a 'chain of conductivity' concept ---one device can utilise multiple ISPs to carry out one task.

And then he tackles the VPN issue. And how it masks ones IP address. And a Virtual Desk Top environment. in both cases the IP address would be of the provider and not the device. As well as various ways to spoof IP addies.

[ I am sure we will hear more about that later]

end of notes from 1st 15 minutes

 

[missy1974]

(quote)

There are several online services that display your IP address as well as the city, state, or country associated with it. Additionally, these services can display this information for any other IP address entered into the site. Often, this information is associated with where the ISP is located and not the exact location of the computer with that IP address.
I want to find the exact physical address of an IP
There is no method of associating an exact physical geographical address or the computer associated with an IP address available to an end-user.
Keep in mind that an IP address could be spoofed, stolen, or behind a proxy and using its IP address. If it's behind a proxy, you may also be able to report abuse to the proxy service and they may be able to track down the real IP address.
How do I determine the physical location of an IP address?

This is what La Rock said. It gives a general area, not a specific address. We can go through all the IP stuff again and again and again.... either you believe it or you don't, in the end, the jury heard that info, it's up to them to decide, not us. He have the ability to research and find out more information, they do not, or should not. Unless the State gets someone to clarify and show otherwise, they have the info presented and that's it.

 

[katydid23]

one piece of evidence shows he was in Hawaii... Another says he was in San Diego or that area... they both can't be true. The transactions could be explained by giving his card to someone (maybe a girlfriend?)... the IP's could be explained by a VPN, but neither have been "proven".

This is why I say I am not sure... which doesn't automatically conclude for me that "Dan did it", but it does bring in some doubt about Hawaii. Unfortunately, we don't have all the discovery, LE interviews, etc. I really wish we did (I've been spoiled in other cases where we have everything) I actually believe that at least Maline really does believe Dan did this LOL I'm not so sure of that ... but they are doing their job and creating reasonable doubt IMO

You think that Maline believes that Dan created that check on the 4th, and the checks on the 5th?

The same checks that Chase cashed himself?

 

[missy1974]

You think that Maline believes that Dan created that check on the 4th, and the checks on the 5th?

The same checks that Chase cashed himself?

huh? where in my post did I say that? wasn't even talking about the cheques LOL

I think Maline thinks Dan murdered them...

 

[katydid23]

No clue... I don't know if I believe he was there or not there... I think there could be some doubt based on the IP's (sorry I don't think Imes did that much damage on that lol)

I'm not sure what you mean by spending all that money to steal a little bit from Joey?

I will say, that I do believe that Dan stole from Joey, whether he was in Hawaii or San Diego... I think he's a little punk. I think he took advantage of the situation. If he phoned LE on the 10th (which was shown today), then he knew that something was wrong... so what is his next step after phoning LE? Stealing from Joey.

JMO

What I mean by spending money is someone had to buy a round trip airline ticket to Hawaii in his name, and he had to give his debit card to someone from those dates, which spanned about 6 weeks, and they used it all over Hawaii.

So he spent a lot of money to then go steal not much more than that from Joey.

And he did transfer cash to his account, but I believe even the defence has said Joey was on a payment plan buying him out. And that next transfer he made was one of those last payments.

He also gave some money to Chase to try and keep the company going.

 

[Force Ten]

BBM
Do you have that? LOL

My point is... regardless, I still think it creates doubt. Unless one of these sides put Dan on the stand and there is something definitive, there will be doubt. Period. Showing one record where his card is being used in places in Hawaii, then showing others that show his IP was in San Diego.... creates doubt... showing a phone record that shows numbers incoming/outgoing on Jan 31 and Feb 1st that happen to show some numbers in Hawaii, doesn't tell me that he was in Hawaii. When I see these records pop up on the live stream screen, the first thing I look for are relevant dates (not just Dan's records) where are the relevant dates in the stuff the prosecutor showed today?

I would also like to know IF LE actually checked these records... or did they leave it up to the defense Forensic Computer guy to look? This does not appear to be part of LE's investigation, which is what the defense has been saying.

All JMO

Well, the prosecution isn't going to go through every single piece of the investigation the detectives went through. Then we would be here for many, many months and the jury would have glossed over long before that.

 

[katydid23]

huh? where in my post did I say that? wasn't even talking about the cheques LOL

I think Maline thinks Dan murdered them...

But Maline told the judge today that the defense theory is that Dan created those checks, not Chase.

So if you are siding with the defense theory that Dan murdered the family, that ^^^ is part of the theory.

 

[Force Ten]

Perhaps the prosecution didn't think the defense would focus on minute, irrelevant details, such as when Joseph called Chase 10 minutes or 40 minutes after he wrote a check for Chase. On top of that, not knowing the context of those calls. But the 'expert' witness inferred Joseph called him about it. That's their whole testimony today, or a great portion of it, Joseph's trend to call Chase after writing the checks leading up to the call on February 4 at 8:27. A lot of inference without evidence.

The prosecution turned the defense witness into mincemeat by pointing out his own bias overlooking many things that he should have verified and tested against his own findings.

What about the checks written after the 4th? The prosecution never offered where these were produced but I imagine it could be from the 'Josephe-Lap' La Rock testified he couldn't link anything to because it wasn't provided (because it's missing).

A laptop is missing and we don't know where Chase made the checks, but we do know he made them because we know he cashed them. But according to Chase, Joseph gave them to Chase on the 4th, despite the fact they were produced after this date and backdated.

A truck strongly resembling Merritt's truck is pulling out of the Mcstay driveway on the very evening everything for them stops.