CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

[Infidell]

Well now thank you.

Aw heck, we're only at the beginning of thread #2!

That's not a knife;

Spoiler: THIS

CO - CO - Suzanne Morphew, 49, Chaffee County, 10 May 2020 #78 *ARREST*

is a knife.

It really is worth reading at least a few pages if not a few threads on a case before commenting on it. MOO of course.

Thank you. I read plenty of publicly available information before posting. The caveat wasn't really in fealty to prior posts, it was to say, "hey, if everyone else already agrees on the point I'm about to make I'm sorry I'm late to the party." I don't sense that's the case so far. MOO back atcha.

 

[Snoopster]

Hey thanks for your thoughts. My responses follow.

Strikes me a dying even a couple of days apart is unlikely. Your loved one, maybe with a baby, is sick to the point they can't move suddenly - you move. You don't wait for a chopper. They were all found together. Maybe they decided not to, but if you're right on the trail, seems to me you move.

Heat stroke en masse? This was a wooded area or near one, as I recall. Dogs, babies, and folks shouldn't all drop off from heat stroke within moments or even hours of each other with water sources nearby capable of giving them algae bloom or whatever. Or at least it's waaaaaaay off the scale of likelihood.

I disagree with you relative to your thoughts about "zero evidence". <modsnip> You've got an entirely dead family here - plus the dog, on or near a trafficked trail. I've seen at least some speculation about murder. No third-party hangs around to murder the dog too, unless the dog's a problem. Not a mark on the dog. No.

You take out the dog because it's best for the dog, so it won't suffer in your absence.

I'm a lawyer, licensed in two states, 25 years now in practice. I deal in evidence daily. And you're staring at a ton of admissible evidence. Probative value? I agree, there's more to do here before drawing conclusions. I'm just sayin', I've got a fair sense of where this is heading.

Happy to be wrong, by the way. Maybe.

It's my understanding that this was NOT a treed area, or near a treed area.
I believe that this area had a fire not too long ago, and what little tree coverage they had on the trail is now gone. I may have misunderstood this though and happy to be corrected.

As far as all dying of heatstroke, I believe that a number of people have posted on here with valid theories as to how that could have happened. And the trail is well-trafficked during spring, fall and possibly winter, but it's clear that summer is not well-trafficked due to the heat.

Your other points are well-taken though. I can't imagine what you've seen during the course of your practice!

 

[Infidell]

Congrats on being admitted to practice law in two states, but what, exactly, is the evidence that supports alleging that either parent committed murder? A couple of paragraphs above, you wrote that you've "seen at least some speculation about murder." I'm sure you have. But as you know, that speculation isn't evidence. What evidence are you talking about?

All of the above. Gotta run, though. Have a great night.

 

[armchairagatha]

All of us are speculating at the end of the day. The only true evidence will be the toxicology reports once they are in. Hopefully those will provide info on the real cause of death. I am curious why this will take several weeks though. Can't imagine anything taking that long in this time and age!

 

[Recidivist]

Hey thanks for your thoughts. My responses follow.

Strikes me a dying even a couple of days apart is unlikely. Your loved one, maybe with a baby, is sick to the point they can't move suddenly - you move. You don't wait for a chopper. They were all found together. Maybe they decided not to, but if you're right on the trail, seems to me you move.

Heat stroke en masse? This was a wooded area or near one, as I recall. Dogs, babies, and folks shouldn't all drop off from heat stroke within moments or even hours of each other with water sources nearby capable of giving them algae bloom or whatever. Or at least it's waaaaaaay off the scale of likelihood.

I disagree with you relative to your thoughts about "zero evidence". You're incorrect on this point. You've got an entirely dead family here - plus the dog, on or near a trafficked trail. I've seen at least some speculation about murder. No third-party hangs around to murder the dog too, unless the dog's a problem. Not a mark on the dog. No.

You take out the dog because it's best for the dog, so it won't suffer in your absence.

I'm a lawyer, licensed in two states, 25 years now in practice. I deal in evidence daily. And you're staring at a ton of admissible evidence. Probative value? I agree, there's more to do here before drawing conclusions. I'm just sayin', I've got a fair sense of where this is heading.

Happy to be wrong, by the way. Maybe.

Don't you think that if they had intentionally ended their own lives and that of the baby and dog, that they would have been found ALL together, cradling the baby and one another?

 

[NSamuelle]

All of us are speculating at the end of the day. The only true evidence will be the toxicology reports once they are in. Hopefully those will provide info on the real cause of death. I am curious why this will take several weeks though. Can't imagine anything taking that long in this time and age!

I understand why some tissue samples etc. might take weeks to test, but the water should have been tested by now - you might not be able to determine what it was tainted with, immediately, but you should be able to discern a binary tainted/not tainted result.

It’s also potentially a matter of public health and safety if their demise is tied to the algae blooms and they were drinking “filtered” water from the river that wasn’t really filtered. If the water came back clean, they should tell the public that, too.

 

[Infidell]

Don't you think that if they had intentionally ended their own lives and that of the baby and dog, that they would have been found ALL together, cradling the baby and one another?

Well, maybe. Unless it wasn't everyone's idea to die that day. Or maybe someone changed his or her mind on reflection.

 

[JJ Ray]

Some randomness summations....
1) Lightening. No. Had to be "heat lightening" as the weather was clear in Mariposa.
All 4 by random lightening strike? No.
Mariposa, California Long Range Weather Forecast: 2021-08-15
2) Trail is a roughly 7 mile loop or if down and back up .... a 7 mile trek. I measured a 1400 foot elevation change on Google maps. That difference equals at least here in PHX and the desert, about a 10 degree difference in heat. 107 easily at bottom.
3) As you can see from Google maps topography base there is virtually no shade along the switchbacks they were found. If it was down and back up on that section, they were only in shade at top and very bottom. (I believe a Fire - Ferguson has been mentioned - and it certainly seems like that from the map.)
4) A baby in 100+ degrees for hours? Nobody intentionally leaves a baby in a car for more than a few minutes because everyone knowns how extremely dangerous it is even for a short while. Same goes for outdoors-no shade.
5) Still going for Dog ill or dehydrated. trying to carry dog and baby. Perhaps Baby loses consciousness/expires. Exhausted and grief stricken its too late, they can't move and are in and out of consciousness.
[BTW I have experienced heat exhaustion/early heat stroke and got nauseated but never vomited. Very dizzy, "out on your feet" is a good description, agitated. THE BEST REMEDY IS ICE or INSTA PAC TO THE NECK. You need to cool the blood to the brain. Get in shade or make some with clothing or ??? Water or wet toweling off the skin to lower the body temp and top of Head. You lose heat through your head, so it gets hottest. Get a breeze going by fanning yourself. Watch for EXCESSIVE sweating as that is an indicator that your body is starting to work overtime to cool itself.]
According to the CDC, the following individuals are most at-risk for a heat stroke:

• Infants and young children
• People 65 years of age or older
• People who are overweight
• Individuals who overexert during work or exercise
• People who are physically ill, especially with heart disease or high blood pressure, or who take certain medications, such as for depression, insomnia, or poor circulation
• People traveling from cooler climates to drastically warmer climates

6) It sounds odd but making that an overnighter with a stay in the shade along the river in the PM (despite the heat) might have worked out.
OR (don't mean to be funny here)
7) Murder suicide by an adult poisoning the water they were drinking....
Awaiting toxicology like everyone else!

 

[SophieRose]

When I drove through while visiting Yosemite, there was nothing that attracted us to stop the car, only scrub, blackened trees and radiating heat.
Within a few miles are some of the most beautiful trails on the planet, with lots of green trees and waterfalls.

When I was at Yosemite in Oct 2013, the waterfalls had no water. Imagine Yosemite Falls and you can't even see anything. Children were playing on the rocks (usually wet and slippery) and the ranger wasn't even yelling at them. I felt so sorry for foreign tourists where this might be their only chance to see the park.

2013 was also the year of the Rim Fire up in northern Yosemite. It was once the third largest fire in California, I don't know if it even makes top ten any more.

 

[d4i5y]

I thought I read that the family had moved to the area fairly recently. Can we presume that they'd hiked this trail before and were familiar with it? Perhaps they weren't.

Yes, they have traveled to many exotic places, but that doesn't mean that they were trail smart. I've traveled lots of places and no doubt naively could have found myself in a situation that was risky.

People have talked about how the couple has AllTrails app (I believe), but that doesn't mean a lot. I have AllTrails too, but only since March of this year. I have gone hiking regularly since April and got more and more confident. But then I've had a couple of very minor incidents...which gave me a jolt about the risk of hiking. In my case...hiking alone.

But my point is it is easy to get overconfident and equally easy to make mistakes.

(And, yes, my shoulder and jaw are healing nicely from my most recent face-plant after a simple trip on a root while trail running. Thank you for asking. )

I hope you’ll start to feel much better soon. This is his Alltrails. I agree it’s not especially indicative of any skill but it is interesting for a couple of things: a) he appears to have at least partially done the Hite Cove trail and that was four years ago, so reason says they likely had done this hike before or possibly only some of it (as far as I know, the sheriff has assumed they took the circular route but they may not have, I suppose). And b) he seems to have a habit for “afternoon” hikes around this area which I thought was interesting. Perhaps they did set out in the afternoon.

In any event, he seemed to be hiking to the south quite a lot for short hikes no more than a couple of hours at a time. From what I read elsewhere, they moved to Darrah so the house is thereabouts. Maybe they’d only done some Hite Cove (or he had, and that was before they married or likely were together) and they set out to make a day of it to do the whole loop.
https://www.alltrails.com/members/jonathan-gerrish

 

[McSpy]

I found this about heat health risks. Lots can go wrong.

Extremes of Temperature - Chapter 3 - 2020 Yellow Book | Travelers' Health | CDC

 

[Tower]

He said the scene where the family was found lacked any immediate clues as to what happened, with no signs of foul play or traumatic injuries.

Mr Briese said the baby was in a backpack carrier with the dog near her father but attached to him, while her mum was 30 yards away.
Final calls on Brit dad's phone may hold key to how family died on hiking trip

-And-

There were no signs of crime at the scene and no traumatic injuries to the bodies. The sheriff said Miju was “in a kangaroo bag close to her father, but not tied to her father,” and Hellen was located about 30 meters away. Their dog, Oksi, was lying next to the baby.
Family is found dead on a trail without signs of violence

Both of these stories were posted a few pages back. Each of them speaks about Miju being in a backpack/kangaroo bag near her Dad. One even goes so far as to say she was not "tied" to him.

I've not seen this information quoted as coming from Sheriff Briese in any US news story? Literary license?

This is all MOO because the description of the photo taken at 6:45 a.m. of their baby backpack is no longer accessible (possibly behind a paywall on SF Chronicle now for me). I have seen only one reference from a UK (moo: possibly unreliable) source that you linked above call it a “kangaroo bag” and in my region of the US (near this tragedy), that type of carrier is typically called a “front carrier” or “infant carrier.”
Again, the MSM reference is not available any longer, so this is now all MOO, but the original MSM evidence pointed to Miju being in a baby backpack with camelbak bladder insert. Moo now. I wonder what the Sheriff actually said because we have conflicting quotes. Either carrier would be quite hot for Dad and baby, in my extensive personal experience.

 

[RickshawFan]

I've posted here that they probably had only 3L of water. They were found with a Camelback Bladder (I posted a link). I also posted a link of those available and 3L was the biggest for the bladders. Some water was still in it when they were found!
I also posted TWO links that show 8L would be required for 2 adults on a four hour hike under hot challenging conditions I didn't even take into account the infant and dog. It appears they weren't prepared for the conditions ....heat..lack of shade...steep terrain on a 3 mile leg with an infant and dog in tow. Very sad.

Yes, photos in the first thread, Post 344. 3L is the max bladder that will fit into an adult pack.
IMO one adult would require more water than 4L for that hike in that heat and that dry air, with no shade. I would also be carrying supplemental Gatorade or I wouldn't make it up that hill, especially at the end of the mileage.
Consider, 4L of water is approx 8lbs. I can't imagine the couple was each carrying 8 lbs. of water. They would also have needed all the baby gear, the baby, the backpack, snacks, 10 essentials, baby bottles, dog stuff..... This is not a viable hike simply on the basis of the weight required.
I wonder if they were wearing hats?

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Hey thanks for your thoughts. My responses follow.

Strikes me a dying even a couple of days apart is unlikely. Your loved one, maybe with a baby, is sick to the point they can't move suddenly - you move. You don't wait for a chopper. They were all found together. Maybe they decided not to, but if you're right on the trail, seems to me you move.

Heat stroke en masse? This was a wooded area or near one, as I recall. Dogs, babies, and folks shouldn't all drop off from heat stroke within moments or even hours of each other with water sources nearby capable of giving them algae bloom or whatever. Or at least it's waaaaaaay off the scale of likelihood.

I disagree with you relative to your thoughts about "zero evidence". You're incorrect on this point. You've got an entirely dead family here - plus the dog, on or near a trafficked trail. I've seen at least some speculation about murder. No third-party hangs around to murder the dog too, unless the dog's a problem. Not a mark on the dog. No.

You take out the dog because it's best for the dog, so it won't suffer in your absence.

I'm a lawyer, licensed in two states, 25 years now in practice. I deal in evidence daily. And you're staring at a ton of admissible evidence. Probative value? I agree, there's more to do here before drawing conclusions. I'm just sayin', I've got a fair sense of where this is heading.

Happy to be wrong, by the way. Maybe.

The tree cover burned in a fire in 2018. Trail was completely exposed to the sun. Temps were said to be as high as 107-109, possibly hotter in the canyon.

 

[Recidivist]

When I was at Yosemite in Oct 2013, the waterfalls had no water. Imagine Yosemite Falls and you can't even see anything. Children were playing on the rocks (usually wet and slippery) and the ranger wasn't even yelling at them. I felt so sorry for foreign tourists where this might be their only chance to see the park.

2013 was also the year of the Rim Fire up in northern Yosemite. It was once the third largest fire in California, I don't know if it even makes top ten any more.

If you want to see active waterfalls at Yosemite, you would need to visit during the springtime. I don't know why anyone would go in the fall and expect to see the falls. Besides the falls, Yosemite has the most beautiful scenery no matter which way you look. It is, in my opinion, the most beautiful place on earth.

 

[Infidell]

The tree cover burned in a fire in 2018. Trail was completely exposed to the sun. Temps were said to be as high as 107-109, possibly hotter in the canyon.

Google 2021 - Devil's Gulch. Looks like trees to me.

Google Maps

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Don't you think that if they had intentionally ended their own lives and that of the baby and dog, that they would have been found ALL together, cradling the baby and one another?

Agreed that would be most likely. In addition, why would they bother to go to the [presumed] extra effort to use a method/means (not sure which I mean, legally speaking) of homicide/suicide that is so completely unidentifiable by autopsy?

(Murderers everywhere are watching to learn this secret...)

I still think it's got to be heat. Most plausible to me is that baby was impacted first, parents tried to rush back uphill, which pushed both adults and the dog beyond their limits.

I find I am unable to believe they would set out during the heat of the day, unless they literally only intended to walk for a few minutes, so if LE actually has some reason to think they didn't set out in early am, then I think it's also possible they set out in early evening as it was starting to cool down. That adds a range of other things that could have gone wrong -- snakes among other critters are out at dusk, but that would be observable in the autopsy. I suppose thinking it was cooling off might explain their only bringing 3L of water, but it's still not enough. LE should be looking along the lower part of the trail, as I mentioned earlier, and one thing they might watch for is an abandoned [second] camelbak.

I live at elevation where the "saving grace" to unpleasantly hot summer days is our typical nighttime deep cooling, and I can attest how frustrating it is on those occasional nights when even well after dark it remains hot for hours... But it seems every year there are few more of these days than there were before. This may have caught them unawares, possibly.

Again, MOO

 

[d4i5y]

This is all MOO because the description of the photo taken at 6:45 a.m. of their baby backpack is no longer accessible (possibly behind a paywall on SF Chronicle now for me). I have seen only one reference from a UK (moo: possibly unreliable) source that you linked above call it a “kangaroo bag” and in my region of the US (near this tragedy), that type of carrier is typically called a “front carrier” or “infant carrier.”
Again, the MSM reference is not available any longer, so this is now all MOO, but the original MSM evidence pointed to Miju being in a baby backpack with camelbak bladder insert. Moo now. I wonder what the Sheriff actually said because we have conflicting quotes. Either carrier would be quite hot for Dad and baby, in my extensive personal experience.

This is a good spot. I haven’t seen anything on her social media about a baby backpack. There is this photo on the top of both the SF Chronicle and WSJ stories (I think; I can’t access either). From what I can make out of the source on the “kangaroo backpack”, it’s a blog that’s aggregated all the news stories so I suspect they’ve (possibly inadvertently) embellished here and assumed the carrier in this photo (carried by two big titles) is recent and therefore what they had on the day.

Logic says though that they had one of the backpack carriers you’re talking about and this is why they posted it (either to a social media account or texted a photo to a friend). Probably because it was new and/or they planned to try it out.

I’m still of the view that it’s an assumption they made the full loop. I’m not sure this is actually the case but it’s something I’ve filed under ‘assumption’ in my head anyway. One of the ways stories like this can be so interesting is because each person pictures the scenarios in their minds which can be both very helpful to work out what questions to ask but can also start to meld fact with assumption so your spot here is nicely illustrative of this as I think that’s what the author in the blog post has done in relation to the “kangaroo bag”. Which, of course, they may well have had. Which suggests too they may not have undertaken such a long hike after all. One of those things we won’t know until the final analysis I suppose.

 

[rahod1]

Yes, photos in the first thread, Post 344. 3L is the max bladder that will fit into an adult pack.
IMO one adult would require more water than 4L for that hike in that heat and that dry air, with no shade. I would also be carrying supplemental Gatorade or I wouldn't make it up that hill, especially at the end of the mileage.
Consider, 4L of water is approx 8lbs. I can't imagine the couple was each carrying 8 lbs. of water. They would also have needed all the baby gear, the baby, the backpack, snacks, 10 essentials, baby bottles, dog stuff..... This is not a viable hike simply on the basis of the weight required.
I wonder if they were wearing hats?

Good points. My take is that only the father (I assume) was carrying the baby and water bladder in the back pack. The rescuers only sited ONE Camelback 3L bladder which still had a residual water in it.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Google 2021 - Devil's Gulch. Looks like trees to me.

Google Maps

IME Google maps always show the current year in their watermark, but the photos are often several years old.

I don't have Google Earth on this device or I would check, but I believe Google Earth tells you what year the aerial image is from.

That area apparently burned in the Ferguson Fire of 2018, and comments by hikers and locals have been that there is little if any shade left on that trail.

It's also steep and temperatures in a shaded, treed area a few miles away were well over 100*F so doubtless even higher in the unshaded sun where they were.

MOO