CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

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Mamamerced said:
https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article253770788.html
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So this article says they were seen, by witnesses, heading to the trailhead in their car at 7:45 am. This puts them on a hike in the morning, NOT the afternoon in high temperatures. Would heat stroke still be a possibility? Did something happen, they ended up in the heat? If they did start out as early as 8:00 am, I am starting to lean towards algae blooms having something to do with it.
 
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eptichka83 said:
I just delved into JG’s AllTrails profile a bit further and saw that he reviewed a different trail in April and commented: “cool old mine, some views, big climbs in places.” Viewable at this link:

https://www.alltrails.com/members/jonathan-gerrish/reviews

But even if they did encounter an old mine the day they perished, and explored near it, wouldn’t the effects be instantaneous?

Regardless, his account really gives the impression of a fit, observant person who knows what he’s doing and doesn’t mind a hike with 3000ft or more of gain…

ETA: He visited another trail that he calls “Comet Mine and Skelton Creek,” also in April 2021. Neither of those names turns up anything on AllTrails. Is it possible he had an interest in old mines? MOO.
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The thing is, it might have given him pleasure then, but it was much cooler, and he presumably wasn't carrying a baby in a heavy pack.
 
Speculaytor said:
So this article says they were seen by witnesses heading to the trailhead in their car at 7:45 am. This puts them on a hike in the morning, NOT the afternoon in high temperatures. Would heat stroke still be a possibility? Did something happen, they ended up in the heat? If they did start out as early as 8:00 am, I am starting to lean towards algae blooms having something to do with it.
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Regarding heat stroke I think so, especially depending on how long they were out there. But again, 2 adults, a baby and a dog dropping dead within 30 yards of each other doesn't seem like heat stroke. The Lake Nyos disaster comes to mind. But that killed a lot of people and livestock. This seems much more focused.
 
Speculaytor said:
So this article says they were seen, by witnesses, heading to the trailhead in their car at 7:45 am. This puts them on a hike in the morning, NOT the afternoon in high temperatures. Would heat stroke still be a possibility? Did something happen, they ended up in the heat? If they did start out as early as 8:00 am, I am starting to lean towards algae blooms having something to do with it.
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This is the Weather Forecast for August 15 during the morning hours:
8:00 AM: 85 DEG F
9:00 AM: 92 DEG F
10:00 AM: 99 DEG F
11:00 AM: 103 DEG F
 
Smokingun said:
Our local news update today: Ruled out chemical causes on the trail and weapons. Nothing significant in cell phone data.

Cause of death still undetermined in case of family found dead in Mariposa County
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“Authorities conducted searches of the family's cars and phones, and officials say ‘nothing significant was located.’”

Thank you for posting the first update in a week! A call for help would be “significant” and would be logged even if they couldn’t connect to 911. Their phones would also save attempted texts. This makes me more wary of the heat stroke theory - if one person was affected even minutes after the other and had that “grace period,” why not try to call 911 or text someone?

Edit: I do understand that they might have seen no bars and felt that service was bad or non-existent, but wouldn’t you still try if you had nothing to lose and everything to gain, hoping the signal would capture? Or attempt a text, hoping that if the signal momentarily improved, it would send? Thinking of the Dutch girls who died in the jungle in South America and repeatedly tried to call 911 over a period of days without reception.
 
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I'm late I know...

but what in gods name possesses 2 parents to take their baby and dogs out in this hideous heat? I can't see both parents making this decision to go hiking any more than I can see them dying all at once from heat stroke.

<modsnip>

these people were fit , young and experienced...thats why I feel they actually know better and at least for the sake of the child would not attempt this hike in extreme heat which is just beyond dangerous for dogs..let alone babies.

toxicology will tell right? what kind of poison would kill so quickly without leaving tell tale traces like pink foam or bloating or vomiting?horrible grimacing from pain? there were no snake bites or anything...just so bizarro..

I'll have to read more about them . something not right about this..if its algae or lightning then it is a freak accident..but wouldn't there be signs? certain damage or sick reaction to algae? these people dropped dead.

crazy..I promise to get caught up over here!

mOO
 
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Auntie Cipation said:
IME Google maps always show the current year in their watermark, but the photos are often several years old.

I don't have Google Earth on this device or I would check, but I believe Google Earth tells you what year the aerial image is from.

That area apparently burned in the Ferguson Fire of 2018, and comments by hikers and locals have been that there is little if any shade left on that trail.

It's also steep and temperatures in a shaded, treed area a few miles away were well over 100*F so doubtless even higher in the unshaded sun where they were.

MOO
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My guess in AZ images its about a 18 month-2 year lag looking at housing construction progress in subdivisions.
 
RickshawFan said:
The thing is, it might have given him pleasure then, but it was much cooler, and he presumably wasn't carrying a baby in a heavy pack.
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Well, for anyone who cares to go down this rabbit hole with me, after finding the info on Gerrish's AllTrails page, I went to a site called westernmininghistory.com, a database, with maps, of what they claim to be every mine in the western US, and located three mines on the route the family took. One was slightly off Hite Cove Road, while the other two were directly on their path: at the Merced River, and at the base of Savage-Lundy.

The mines are called Liberty Lode (manganese), Blossom #1 (gold) and Devils Gulch (gold). I have screenshotted a map of all three, which you can view here:

imgur.com

Source: Mining Towns in the Western United States

Beats me why LE said the nearest mine was three miles away.
 
Auntie Cipation said:
IME Google maps always show the current year in their watermark, but the photos are often several years old.

I don't have Google Earth on this device or I would check, but I believe Google Earth tells you what year the aerial image is from.

That area apparently burned in the Ferguson Fire of 2018, and comments by hikers and locals have been that there is little if any shade left on that trail.

It's also steep and temperatures in a shaded, treed area a few miles away were well over 100*F so doubtless even higher in the unshaded sun where they were.

MOO
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It says 2021 but the images are from at least 18 months prior. He was looking at the Gulch itself which is shaded. But the switchbacks are on the exposed south and west slopes.
 
OH WOW, just thought of something. What if they DID take water from a local source on the trail, with a filter, and the dog too, and it made them ill? Then, they began to throw up, a lot. They realized they would dehydrate fast in the heat and sun, and they had the baby so they tried to hurry, run. By the time they reached the place they were found, they were so dehydrated that there was no sign of them being ill. Dehydration, that heat? Dehydration will stop the heart at some point. I don't know, should I delete this idea?
 
WillieMac said:
I'm a couple of pages behind still but I strongly feel that we need to explore the term "attached" as it's used in reference to what most seem to assume is the dog being "attached" to the dad. I feel that this is a miscommunication, misinterpretation, or just a simple typo that happened earlier in the first thread (possibly around page 31 or 32). The only source I've found for this info so far (and I have spent well over an hour going back and rereading links from the first thread now) is this one from the Mirror in the UK that is cited here as well. I feel like the Sheriff's post cited a few pages ago in this thread #2 may actually clarify that. In that post the verbiage states that: "The sheriff said Miju was “in a kangaroo bag close to her father, but not tied to her father, and Hellen was located about 30 meters away". In the statement cited in the Mirror article, it states, "Mr Briese said the baby was in a backpack carrier with the dog near her father but attached to him, while her mum was 30 yards away". These seem to be very very similar statements. I believe they may well have both originated from the same statement but were perhaps more clearly interpreted in the second citation. The verbiage initially used was "not tied to". That has bothered me ever since I first read it. I would not use the term "tied to" to describe a dog on a leash. But I could see an English tabloid making that translation. I would be even MORE quick to believe that tabloid might use the term "tied to" if they were interpreting a statement meant to indicate that a baby in a sling type of carrier were not "attached" to the person the babybwas found beside.

And the reason I think we need to reevaluate that information is due to some of the other discussion from the first thread that centered around the dog being thoight to have been "leashed" ("attached") to dad. IIRC someone mentioned that they thought the dog could have more of an attachment to mom. And that they believed they had seen evidence to indicate that the dog often accompanied the family off-leash on their walks. So they then wondered why the dog may have been found near dad & the baby - rather than nearer mom.

<deep breath> bear with me, I know this is a long post but...I'll try to wrap it up.

So, if we reset and consider that perhaps the "attached" comment pertained to the baby & the dad, then we're back to not knowing if the dog was on a leash. And that reopens the question of why was the dog near dad & not mom. And to that point, I will go back to a comment I made earlier (possibly last thread) about my belief that the dog encountered difficulties first. This most likely would have slowed their hike and could have resulted in mom carrying the baby rather than dad ...as I'm guessing they could likely have refused to leave their beloved pet behind and decided to try to carry it out. I'm sure that scenario would have led to multiple delays and mom likely carrying the baby while dad had the dog. And, as I've said earlier, possibly to an end scenario where dad is overcome with heat & exertion and if forced to put the dog down and sit to rest. I would guess that mom would try to render aide as best she could but likely finally realized that she needed to go on ahead on her own. ***but here's the important part***: in this scenario, she must realize that she needs to leave the baby behind so she removes the carrier and places the baby beside dad. So where would she put the baby?! ...I'm thinking she'd put the baby in dad's shade. So dad is still coherent enough to realize this and props himself in a stabile enough position to maintain that shade as long as he can.

And if you've hung with me this long, perhaps you're already guessing my next thought: I wonder if the position of dad & baby's bodies might indicate where the shade might have been at the time they ended up there. If so? That could help LE establish a time of day when they found themselves in the positions they were found.

Or perhaps I'm just way too long winded and am grasping at straws and should find my way to bed for the night. :) ?? I dunno. Of course this is MOO.
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I agree one hundred percent...and the 'time' was in the afternoon on Sunday!
 
GatorFL said:
BBM: They had water still so they weren't short. You'll suck your bladder dry and still have plenty of hydration in your body to do a 1.5 mile hike with 1,500 feet of elevation gain. It'll suck but be completely possible.
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the hike is longer if you go all the way to S. Merced river no matter the loop or down in Devil's Gulch and back up. I measure the Sandy-Lund section at 3.5 miles alone.
 
Speculaytor said:
OH WOW, just thought of something. What if they DID take water from a local source on the trail, with a filter, and the dog too, and it made them ill? Then, they began to throw up, a lot. They realized they would dehydrate fast in the heat and sun, and they had the baby so they tried to hurry, run. By the time they reached the place they were found, they were so dehydrated that there was no sign of them being ill. Dehydration, that heat? Dehydration will stop the heart at some point. I don't know, should I delete this idea?
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Dehydration should have been easy to spot on autopsy, plus they had water left in their Camelbak.

You can walk a long way in the heat while being dehydrated, miles. It's terrible but doable.

I think we have to wait the 6 weeks for toxicology to come back on this one.
 
“Investigators believe the family hiked most of a grueling 8.5-mile loop — including 5 miles of steep southern exposure trail with little to no trees or shade in 103 to 109 degree heat — before succumbing on the return to their truck on a steep switchback.” Investigators have ruled out 2 causes of death in case of Mariposa family, but still have no answers

I don’t think I’ll ever understand why they decided to hike this far under these conditions with a baby and a dog, if it is determined to be heatstroke.
 
d4i5y said:
This assumes the mum was going for the car, though. I’d be very interested in where exactly the police eventually found cell phone coverage when they first reported the deaths as I think it’s likely (but not conclusive) that she may have been trying to get to the top or actually did get to the top of the ridge to call in help. If the dad and dog had already succumbed, sure she would take the baby and go for it; but if all were alive but very ill, then it would also be instinct to try stay with them and call for help. So she may have been up there for some time trying to call help and then collapsed on her way back to them.

I find this aspect very frustrating to think about. In real terms, both were very experienced hikers, very fit. They seemed to have been out every weekend so would be used to high temperatures and how to prepare for them (the police also confirmed they were well-packed). And ok, it’s a difficult hike but it shouldn’t have taken that long to get back up that slope (they must have been used to topo maps so will have known about the incline).

It’s just very strange. Heat is still the most likely I think but something very serious must have happened. I don’t know if something external, some congenital health issue, some sort of toxin. It just doesn’t make sense otherwise. I can only imagine how awful not knowing yet must be for their families.
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It was near record heat and no shade, even a change of the "normal" 90-95 to 105 makes a difference.
 
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