CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

[ElementalLaura]

THE THREAD IS REOPENED

All posters should keep the discussion focused on the case.

Any further personalizing or arguing with other posters will result in an immediate time out.

 

[Figuring]

I thought you were asking length of entire loop and had estimated it at 6.5, so I was offering that LE says 8.5. I see that you estimated the loop to where they were found to be 6.5 (probably is)....I misread.

Yes thanks. I have been so unclear with what I'm asking, I think because I am new to a lot of the terminology (trial head, loop, switchbacks, miles & fahrenheit, etc). You're right, I did see LE say 8.5. And that they believe the family hiked almost the whole thing. From this, I infer they that LE thinks they went the Hite Cove way, going almost all the way around the loop.

However, there has been some other suggestion that perhaps they started on Hike Cove & changed their mind, & double-backed & went down the SL way; or that they even only started out from the car by going down the SL route (which seems to contradict what LE suggested).

I appreciate your help, & I'm sorry I was so unclear!!

 

[Auntie Cipation]

In response to @Figuring

One thing that confused me about the routes is that an early article said that the first LE on scene followed their footprints down a "steep and straight road".

Well (without even considering which route starts off "steep and straight,") from the point where their car was parked, it looked to me like only continuing towards Savage-Lundy would be considered a "road" (and then the road ends at the gate I assume and then continues as the trail with all the switchbacks).

I thought the other way, Hite Cove, would only be called a trail, not a road.

But then I looked at some trail review site online and I saw that Hite Cove is I guess sometimes used by OHVers? So maybe it's considered a "road" initially too.

Then the article I referred to earlier (quoted in the first thread) said the second wave of LE, the ones that arrived after daylight, were sent down the switchback route, where they found the family.

So, a few things I take from this.

First is that it seems the family's footprints went from the car down the Hite Cove route. Which suggests they hiked the loop, because if they had backtracked at any point it seems the tracks would have revealed that.

Second is that it appears those initial LE following their tracks are not who found them initially, but that the new searchers who went down Savage Lundy found them.

It could be that the first LE couldn't follow either the footprints or the trail itself very far in the dark, at least not safely.

MOO

 

[rahod1]

Yes thanks. I have been so unclear with what I'm asking, I think because I am new to a lot of the terminology (trial head, loop, switchbacks, miles & fahrenheit, etc). You're right, I did see LE say 8.5. And that they believe the family hiked almost the whole thing. From this, I infer they that LE thinks they went the Hite Cove way, going almost all the way around the loop.

However, there has been some other suggestion that perhaps they started on Hike Cove & changed their mind, & double-backed & went down the SL way; or that they even only started out from the car by going down the SL route (which seems to contradict what LE suggested).

I appreciate your help, & I'm sorry I was so unclear!!

LE hasn't provided any details...so any speculation is just that. They either took the loop or attempted a down and back on the steep trail. In any event, they got in over their heads, so I don't dwell on the path they took. Yes...it would be something I would prefer to know, but it's not my focus. I don't think you will get an answer until LE provides more details.

 

[woods]

Investigators believe the family hiked most of a grueling 8.5-mile loop including 5 miles of steep southern exposure trail with little to no trees or shade in 103 to 109 degree heat before succumbing on the return to their truck on a steep switchback. (SF Chronicles)

At 2 PM, it hit 109 degrees. Is it possible that they were out there hiking for 6 hours? I’m only assuming they started hiking at ~8, since a witness saw the family traveling in their car towards the trailhead at 7:45 AM.

 

[katydid23]

Investigators believe the family hiked most of a grueling 8.5-mile loop including 5 miles of steep southern exposure trail with little to no trees or shade in 103 to 109 degree heat before succumbing on the return to their truck on a steep switchback. (SF Chronicles)

At 2 PM, it hit 109 degrees. Is it possible that they were out there hiking for 6 hours? I’m only assuming they started hiking at ~8, since a witness saw the family traveling in their car towards the trailhead at 7:45 AM.

I wish they hadn't picked such a long gruelling hike with an infant and a furry dog.

 

[drama_farmer]

Another scenario: The Mom was rushing ahead to get help/phone signal as the husband struggled behind, making very slow progress. Perhaps carrying the dog as well as the baby.
Hard to say, of course, how many of the group were already suffering from illness.
By the time the husband, dog and baby "catch up" to Mom, she is beyond help and they are close to it.
IMO

 

[Deleted member 292879]

“In over their heads” is probably a good way to put it. I noticed a post on Ellen’s IG from their travels in Asia where she said something like, “stopped to rest a few times hiking in the blazing sun, but the view was worth it.” Now, if, since then, she was also dealing with a TBI and had the baby and dog, I surmise they took quite a few breaks on this hike, even if they only intended to do Savage-Lundy down to the water and back. The post up thread about dogs stopping to rest in the heat is very on point. I’m sure the dog wanted to stop multiple times too. Taking breaks would be enough for the rising heat to become a major issue.

As for the mines, I sent the information on the three in the area to the sheriff’s office email, and got a response from a detective who said she was going to check them, as well as Jonathan’s AllTrails account, out. I don’t want to assume her team hadn’t already, but the response suggests they’re going to explore this angle further. I was surprised to have gotten a response.

 

[nathan.hogan21]

Another scenario: The Mom was rushing ahead to get help/phone signal as the husband struggled behind, making very slow progress. Perhaps carrying the dog as well as the baby.
Hard to say, of course, how many of the group were already suffering from illness.
By the time the husband, dog and baby "catch up" to Mom, she is beyond help and they are close to it.
IMO

Unfortunately the Father was the only one that had a phone on him at the time so her rushing ahead wouldnt have been to get signal or trying to phone for help.

 

[DCA58]

I initially thought something along those lines, but the more I've thought about the terrain & weather, I have a hard time seeing this scenario. The main reason is, I feel like if something like that were to have happened, wouldn't it have been done much sooner (earlier on the trail)? In this scenario, the one with the plot would have had put their own self through what just seems to me like an inordinate & unnecessary level of exertion. Just my opinion!

They were found only 1.7 miles from their car. They could have started , not ended up at their location. If there was some kind of suicide pact, often they don’t want to leave others behind. MO

 

[WildOrchid]

If they had just started out, why did they only have “a small amount” of water in the pack?

They were found only 1.7 miles from their car. They could have started , not ended up at their location. If there was some kind of suicide pact, often they don’t want to leave others behind. MO

 

[GatorFL]

If they had just started out, why did they only have “a small amount” of water in the pack?

3 people sharing water from a 3l bladder. It can go quickly, especially in heat.

 

[helenff]

I think what makes the case so baffling is that many of us feel like we would struggle to make the same decisions they did. I don't even have a dog, but here in the UK it is all over my local FB groups that you shouldn't take a dog out in hot weather for a walk (and that's just regular UK heat!). Wouldn't an actual dog owner know that?

I've carried my own kids in back carriers and they get incredibly hot, quickly. Wouldn't they know that?

It's very hard to reconcile this <modsnip> decision making with parents/dog owners who should've known what they were doing.

<modsnip>

I wonder if some of us are here 'hoping' for another reason behind the deaths because we simply can't imagine how they came to go on that trail that day.

 

[RickshawFan]

In response to @Figuring

One thing that confused me about the routes is that an early article said that the first LE on scene followed their footprints down a "steep and straight road".

Well (without even considering which route starts off "steep and straight,") from the point where their car was parked, it looked to me like only continuing towards Savage-Lundy would be considered a "road" (and then the road ends at the gate I assume and then continues as the trail with all the switchbacks).

I thought the other way, Hite Cove, would only be called a trail, not a road.

But then I looked at some trail review site online and I saw that Hite Cove is I guess sometimes used by OHVers? So maybe it's considered a "road" initially too.

Then the article I referred to earlier (quoted in the first thread) said the second wave of LE, the ones that arrived after daylight, were sent down the switchback route, where they found the family.

So, a few things I take from this.

First is that it seems the family's footprints went from the car down the Hite Cove route. Which suggests they hiked the loop, because if they had backtracked at any point it seems the tracks would have revealed that.

Second is that it appears those initial LE following their tracks are not who found them initially, but that the new searchers who went down Savage Lundy found them.

It could be that the first LE couldn't follow either the footprints or the trail itself very far in the dark, at least not safely.

MOO

I took the statements differently. Apologies if I’m reiterating what I said upthread.

LE responded to the call. They searched with flashlights on the dirt road leading to the gulch. No success. Plus, flashlights are barely useful in any search of the pitch black backcountry (recall you can lose your tent in no time if you “find a bush” at night, even though you’re wearing a headlamp). And, trail searching is not so much LE’s schtick. It has to be super organized to be effective.
And then, the little search group LE mustered encounters technical trail with switchbacks. No way are they stepping on that trail in the dark of night. For starters, the search just got much more difficult. But they would also be risking injury to officers.
So, they call for SAR to step in and summon a helicopter, both for the morning when you can actually see. SAR musters (these are generally volunteers, they may come from a fair distance, and a safe plan has to be organised) and runs their standard protocol.
LE gets back to crime, which is more their skill set.

In that heat, if the family was on that trail, it was always going to be a recovery mission by the time the family was reported missing. It was not going to be a rescue. Decisions are made accordingly.

It does seem quite odd to me that the helicopter didn’t see the family in the trail first thing in the morning.

 

[mickey2942]

I hate feeling this way, but INMO, the dog and the baby are the primary victims in this thread. Completely at the mercy of two adults <modsnip> .

There were numerous options to be outside, hiking, safely in Yosemite. Or setting up a day "base camp", with a pack N play for the baby to be outdoors, shaded, able to safely wander, the dog, next to a water dish with a dog bone. Letting Dad go for a hike, while Mom sets up picnic. Or Mom does same, while Dad snoozes. That is what we used to do with our little one. Babies enjoy being in a pack for maybe 25 minutes awake, after that, too hot, they want to walk, asleep, fine...

Could've, would've, should've....Sadly.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Investigators believe the family hiked most of a grueling 8.5-mile loop including 5 miles of steep southern exposure trail with little to no trees or shade in 103 to 109 degree heat before succumbing on the return to their truck on a steep switchback. (SF Chronicles)

At 2 PM, it hit 109 degrees. Is it possible that they were out there hiking for 6 hours? I’m only assuming they started hiking at ~8, since a witness saw the family traveling in their car towards the trailhead at 7:45 AM.

We don't know what time it hit what temperature where they were. The reported temps were for El Portal which is not too far away but green and shaded. Reported temps are definitely "in the shade".

But along the trail where these folks were, it could only have been hotter than the reported temps. Only exception might be the stretch of trail along the river.

To your specific question, yes, it appears that, unless they set out midday which is pretty unfathomable, they set out intending to do either a short hike or a hike in cooler temps, but something happened that caused them to be delayed. It could be that the heat was the only cause and they just couldn't keep going. It could also be that one or more of them was ill or otherwise needed attention and that slowed them down enough that the heat took over.

I believe the heat was sufficient on its own, but that doesn't mean that was their whole story. We just don't know, and if no clear evidence is found, we might never know. MOO

I took the statements differently. Apologies if I’m reiterating what I said upthread.

LE responded to the call. They searched with flashlights on the dirt road leading to the gulch. No success. Plus, flashlights are barely useful in any search of the pitch black backcountry (recall you can lose your tent in no time if you “find a bush” at night, even though you’re wearing a headlamp). And, trail searching is not so much LE’s schtick. It has to be super organized to be effective.
And then, the little search group LE mustered encounters technical trail with switchbacks. No way are they stepping on that trail in the dark of night. For starters, the search just got much more difficult. But they would also be risking injury to officers.
So, they call for SAR to step in and summon a helicopter, both for the morning when you can actually see. SAR musters (these are generally volunteers, they may come from a fair distance, and a safe plan has to be organised) and runs their standard protocol.
LE gets back to crime, which is more their skill set.

In that heat, if the family was on that trail, it was always going to be a recovery mission by the time the family was reported missing. It was not going to be a rescue. Decisions are made accordingly.

It does seem quite odd to me that the helicopter didn’t see the family in the trail first thing in the morning.

Yes, your scenario is completely plausible as well. Now I'm back to being unclear which way they went. MOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

“In over their heads” is probably a good way to put it. I noticed a post on Ellen’s IG from their travels in Asia where she said something like, “stopped to rest a few times hiking in the blazing sun, but the view was worth it.” Now, if, since then, she was also dealing with a TBI and had the baby and dog, I surmise they took quite a few breaks on this hike, even if they only intended to do Savage-Lundy down to the water and back. The post up thread about dogs stopping to rest in the heat is very on point. I’m sure the dog wanted to stop multiple times too. Taking breaks would be enough for the rising heat to become a major issue.

As for the mines, I sent the information on the three in the area to the sheriff’s office email, and got a response from a detective who said she was going to check them, as well as Jonathan’s AllTrails account, out. I don’t want to assume her team hadn’t already, but the response suggests they’re going to explore this angle further. I was surprised to have gotten a response.

BBM

Her TBI was apparently ten or so years ago, when she was barely or not even 20, so presumably all her instagram hikes were well after that. MOO

That's great news to have heard back from the LE. I hope they check out where you suggested, just in case.

 

[Tink60]

I just can't imagine any scenario where one of them wouldn't have been holding the baby come the end

Like I’ve said in a previous post, when I had heat stroke my muscles became useless, it was like I was paralyzed. I couldn’t even talk because I could not move my facial muscles. If this was heatstroke I could see not being able to hold on to the baby.

 

[RickshawFan]

Unfortunately the Father was the only one that had a phone on him at the time so her rushing ahead wouldnt have been to get signal or trying to phone for help.

We don’t know that, do we? That only dad had a phone?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I’m curious if anyone has guesstimates about what the minimum length of time it would take for these routes:

1. from the car down the SL trail, to 1.5 miles in, where they were found;

2. Taking the full Hite Cove all the way around the loop to where they were found (I’m guessing it’s approximately 6.5 miles total to the spot?)

I mean to say, if someone stayed on the course they took, didn’t double back, didn’t take inordinately long breaks, wasn’t injured, & was going at an average pace. I know there’s unlimited variability possible as far as all that goes, but I’m just wondering how long these routes would take minimally—as in, they could not be done in less than a minimum time.

(I asked something similar in a reply up thread but I don’t think I was concise, so I am trying again!)

I tried to piece it together in a previous post, but I think my estimate was off (I thought 5 hours. Now I think the loop is maybe 3 to 4 hours—amateur speculation).

These are the same images I posted that might give you an idea of the length, time needed to hike the trail and Jonathon’s usual speed.

https://www.alltrails.com/members/jonathan-gerrish/completed


Map from the SFC article with suspected route:'Not one clue': The mystery is only deepening around the family found dead on a Sierra trail