GUILTY CA - Lana Clarkson, 40, fatally shot, Alhambra, 3 Feb 2003

DNA Solves
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DNA Solves
Wrinkles, I do believe LKB said in her OS that Henry Lee, who at that time was the esteemed expert, would tell them of research proving that blood spatter goes 72 inches-- 6 feet.

They need that in order to place the spattered jacket of PS 6 feet away from the gun.

But in order to buy that, the jury is going to have to ignore the testimony of SC which discredits Henry Lee and shows that he hides evidence and lies about it.

And then if they swallow that bilge and buy HL's 6 ft piffle, they will have to believe in magic blood. This magic spatter skips Lana's legs and shoes, skips the carpet between her and the stairs, doesn't land on the paneling and just hits Spector on the left side of his jacket AND the magic spatter goes around to the back of his sleeves AND it goes upward to the edge of his cuff.

The defense might argue that Spector had thrown his arms up in a "No, don't do it!" gesture. But then they'd have to believe an innocent man wouldn't call 911 and would be beligerent with the police.

AND they'd have to ignore Adriano's testimony and the PBA women.

No wonder Spector started wearing a tie.
 
Lots of people think it is death to Caplan's career if she testifies. Perhaps she should look it as an opportunity to go over to the light side and become a prosecutor!

Dare you ask? I was a frequent poster on another site with a very active forum on this trial. Ragnar (also now a poster here) posted a list of three CDA tactics which he dubbed "yada"s (as in yada yada.)

And I added #4: "The victim was a S-L-*T and she deserved it." Only I carelessly typed the actual word. Posted it turned up as four asterisks and for the first time in over 4000 posts I learned there was sanitizing software. I never thought this post was a violation of TOS because I wasn't calling anyone a name or disparaging anyone, merely making a point about CDA tactics.

Within minutes I was unable to post again and I received an angry PM from the mod saying "You know the rules!"

So basically I was banned for posting **** which nobody saw but her nibs when her alarm must have rung.

There was no consideration of context just a very quick gate. And I think it's petty and stupid. But that's just my opinion. And years of thoughtful posts and an effort to be accurate and contribute to the board counted for nothing.

Many asked me to take on an alias but that really goes against my particular grain. Instead I alerted fellow posters where I would be hanging my hat! And here we are. I expect that peeps who can have feet in both worlds. I understand. That forum is more active. But another silly shutdown and maybe they'll stay here. It's nice here.
Hey, lisa, I wondered what happened...the mod there many times doesn't decipher the posts, just accepts whatever complaint she gets, especially when she's busy. Glad to read you here! :D
 
Niner, I doubt it. I believe tomorrow's court with SC consists only of her filing a writ of appeal. Won't be on camera, I wouldn't think.

I see LKB going after Dr H very aggressively but I believe that Dr H is a very deliberate, very precise scientist and will not be bullied by LKB.

Thanks for the info Lisa - yes, I click on the ktla site - and if there is no "Phil Spector" trial link - then I know it won't be shown... I'm learning!! LOL!

Re Dr. H - yes it seems that way! Good for her! (Dr. H that is!)


Spydernweb said:
I can not say how enamored I am of Dr. Herold. This lady brings science down to our level that makes sense! She is strong enough to effectively challenge smoke and mirrors by the Def. Her asking LKB yesterday "And your point is?" was priceless.

LOL! I loved it!! :D and Welcome to WS!

lisafremont said:
Niner... She's BAAAAACK!!!...
Sorry... what show is this?? Channel?? if it's on TV now - 9am PST - I'm at work {at the time of this posting} so can't see it anyway - but Thanks for the commentary!! ;)

kind of behind in my reading here... so shall continue!
 
(Anyone having trouble getting in here? Night before last was a no go, then last night after trying and trying, I finally made it, but then I was not able to post!) f r u s t r a t i n g

to answer your question re server problems... yes, Tricia, the owner has said she is having problems with her server and is looking for a new "service"... so hang on there!! She's sorry for the disruptions!! And trying hard to find another!

and by the way - I think they should let EVERYTHING Phil has said - to be let in as evidence! I've never heard THIS story before! Thanks LaMer!
 
Wrinkles, I do believe LKB said in her OS that Henry Lee, who at that time was the esteemed expert, would tell them of research proving that blood spatter goes 72 inches-- 6 feet.

They need that in order to place the spattered jacket of PS 6 feet away from the gun.

But in order to buy that, the jury is going to have to ignore the testimony of SC which discredits Henry Lee and shows that he hides evidence and lies about it.

And then if they swallow that bilge and buy HL's 6 ft piffle, they will have to believe in magic blood. This magic spatter skips Lana's legs and shoes, skips the carpet between her and the stairs, doesn't land on the paneling and just hits Spector on the left side of his jacket AND the magic spatter goes around to the back of his sleeves AND it goes upward to the edge of his cuff.

The defense might argue that Spector had thrown his arms up in a "No, don't do it!" gesture. But then they'd have to believe an innocent man wouldn't call 911 and would be beligerent with the police.

AND they'd have to ignore Adriano's testimony and the PBA women.

No wonder Spector started wearing a tie.

Boy Lisa - you are GOOD at this!! I just hope the DAs are reading here for some tips!! And thank you for commentarying {sp?} on the trial here!
 
Hey, lisa, I wondered what happened...the mod there many times doesn't decipher the posts, just accepts whatever complaint she gets, especially when she's busy. Glad to read you here! :D

Glad to see you over here in your sneakers, wandering!!
I am quite sure that I was not banned as a result of a complaint. It was much too fast (a) and (b) what would they complain about--- four asterisks???

Uh- uh. The sanitizing software which eliminated the offending word (which I heard on network tv the other night, btw) must have an alarm which alerts her b/c I was banned by the end of typing and posting a msg about this length right on the heels of the yada yada one.

And Niner--- it's my pleasure. I am grateful to have an outlet for my thoughts on this trial which I find so absorbing. And I think that while I sometimes wish I could post over there, in reality, there is much to be said for not being able to. It's kinda like methadone for my msg board addiction!!
 
Oh, Ed! Sorry I missed you! I would have loved to have given you and your family a tour of the Nat. History Museum!!
:cool:
 
What a shame! I have always wanted to meet a denizen of the Isle of Lucy!!
:blowkiss:
 
Good afternoon everyone! Dr. Herold is on the stand again today being cross-examined by LKB and mainly talking about the blood spatter and blood inside pocket of PS pants.

Did anyone see this yet?

No jail for Caplan yet

Sara Caplan isn’t going to jail -- at least not in the short term. An appeals court has stayed Judge Fidler’s order that she be held in contempt of court for refusing to testify. Interestingly, it was Spector’s attorneys, not Caplan’s who got the stay. The defense filed an appeal Friday. Caplan’s lawyers still have until Monday to file their own writ.

The justices of the state 2nd District Court of Appeal did not set a date for a hearing, but wrote that the stay would remain in effect “pending determination of the petition or further order of this court.”

“They have issued a stay basically on any further action by [the judge] regarding Sara Caplan,” said the defense attorney -- Harriet Ryan

http://blog.courttv.com/phil_specto...1.html#comments
 
Good afternoon!
I would like to express that LKB is becoming increasingly annoying the longer I am exposed to her. It's her tone, her cough and her attitude and things like calling "the parabolic arc" the "parabolic ARCH" which even I recognized as wrong.

Yeesh. To know her is to loathe her.
 
Good afternoon!
I would like to express that LKB is becoming increasingly annoying the longer I am exposed to her. It's her tone, her cough and her attitude and things like calling "the parabolic arc" the "parabolic ARCH" which even I recognized as wrong.

Yeesh. To know her is to loathe her.
I'm finding time to wander away from the computer as I listen to her drone on and repeatedly hear the witness say she doesn't understand the questioning because LKB doesn't know what she (LKB) is talking about! :rolleyes: I did notice that Cutler isn't there today to babysit PS.
 
Oh now I'm getting sick ~ LKB is asking the witness if she knows about tests done by shooting animals to determine how far back spatter will travel. :sick:
 
EVEN IF it were true that tiny blood droplets traveled as far as 6 feet, that doesn't explain why there was no spatter on her legs and shoes or the carpet and that only his jacket was hit.
 
EVEN IF it were true that tiny blood droplets traveled as far as 6 feet, that doesn't explain why there was no spatter on her legs and shoes or the carpet and that only his jacket was hit.
That's why I really am not following some of these questions at all. What is she getting at??? Hurricane winds vs. air currents in the foyer??? :confused:
 
Another update from Harriet's blog ~

Sleeping through spatter talk

There’s a juror in the back row who has proven the trial testimony version of a canary in a coal shaft. If he falls asleep, look out! You can bet the rest of the panelists will be nodding off shortly. This morning, he was out by 10:40 a.m. His eyes were shut, his head slumped against the courtroom wall.

What drove him to dreamland? The nitpicking back-and-forth between defense lawyer Linda Kenney-Baden and Herald. Both women are sticklers for scientific detail and neither will give an inch in this Q & A. Kenney-Baden painstakingly crafts a question that would appear to call for a simple yes or no. Herald replies that it’s not a yes-or-no question and launches into a lengthy explanation. Or she says she needs to review a section of her 449-page case file. The flipping of the pages is a lullaby not only for the jurors but for the defendant. Spector is napping intermittently by 11:30.

The substance of cross-examination is actually pretty interesting if it could ever get some momentum. Kenney-Baden is pointing out lab experiments in which animals or blood-soaked sponges are shot and the resulting spatter measured. In some of these, according to Kenney-Baden, the spatter went way farther than the 4 feet Herold has called the “theoretical” maximum.

But Herold dismisses them all. Experiments can’t replicate what happens to real people because, she said, “We don’t shoot people.”

She insists that the laws of physics are on her side and support a 2-to-4-foot range.

“There is no other case like this case. It is a unique case unto itself,” she adds. -- Harriet Ryan

http://blog.courttv.com/phil_specto...3.html#comments
 
Even without the conclusion of evidence, I can refute 9 of the 10 points of science that LKB raised in her OS. (The 10th is not available from archived excerpt rewatched by sunstar, her notes posted on the other website on the thread I began in order to compare/contrast OS's with actual evidence.)

10 points refuted --- well, nine anyway (Does anyone know the 10th pt?)

1) LKB: "teeth would be broken inward if gun was shoved inside her mouth."

**I say: only if her teeth were clenched. It is completely reasonable to believe that she could have been speaking or he could have forced her to with the gun in her face.
Also she completely ignores the bruises on her tongue and her wrists which are consistent with a struggle.

2) blood spatter goes 6-8 feet

** I say: Dr Herold says that blood back spatter goes 2- 4 feet. The person who will say 6-8 feet is Dr Henry Lee and he will be utterly discredited to the jury anyway.
But even without that--- the facts show that there was NO high-velocity spatter on her outstretched legs and her shoes, no h-v spatter on the rug or on the wood paneling on staircase (testimony by Renteria about Luminol testing).
Also there is the h-v blood spatter on PS's white jacket which matches the h-v blood spatter on Lana's skirt which proves that PS was standing there

3) tissue on jacket buttons

**was not there from the shooting event rather from the later purge at the coroner's office

4) GSR -- LKB: "absence" on PS

**No, not an absence, a reduction, easily explained by the 40 mins. bet. the shooting and his arrest and the oppty to wash, wipe and remove it.

5) teeth-- location of fragments proves no one was in front of her

**We know that PS went upstairs (blood on bannister, jacket found upstairs, he was seen in the upstairs by LE) and tooth fragments might have fallen off him on the way up the stairs.

6) DNA on bullets proved she loaded the gun

** DNA was found on the TIPS of the bullets and was there as a result of her being shot with the gun in her mouth.
The notion that she loaded the gun is ludicrous, as is the assertion that the gun was hers.
Gun fit in the holster with the old Hunter logo.
Bullets (Speer and Smith & Wesson +P not sold since 1983) in 3 hand guns in house prove the gun and bullets belonged to Spector.
It's ridiculous to assert she brought an unloaded .38 to the Castle with the intent to find .38 bullets there with which to kill herself is laughable.

7)"physical size disparity between LC and PS" proves he didn't shoot her
plus he had the hand tremors

** Piffle! A gun is the great equalizer. Also physical evidence shows she was seated when shot.
Hand tremors? What better way to steady his hand than sticking the muzzle in her mouth??

8)clotted blood on diaper

** Shows he wiped her face at least 3 mins after shooting her. This is cover-up not aid.

9) PS didn't try to cover up the scene. Gun not planted or wiped.

** Gun had no fingerprints on it and also smeared blood on it. It WAS wiped.
It is idiotic to maintain that the gun fell from her right hand and landed under her left leg.
There was also the very credible testimony from ADS that Spector came out of the Castle holding the gun.

10) _____

Lisa,

Great analysis. I'll add a few thoughts here and there, though you've really covered the 10 pinpricks, er, points well. I'm not sure of the 10th point either, and I'm not sure I can stomach another viewing of LKB's OS to find it at this moment.

Actually, I think I just remembered it: PS should be covered in blood spatter; it should be all over his jacket sleeve along with GSR. Or is that part of #2 and/or #4?

1) This is, was, and always will be carp. (Do we have to say carp here?) I thought it was laughable when I first heard it as there are so many other explanations. Does LKB think anybody would buy this argument? PS ordered her to open her mouth, Lana gasped when she saw the gun and PS shoved it in, etc, etc.

2) Per Dr. Herold, the almighty science LKB keeps quoting puts the lie to this: Using physics the theoretical max distance blood droplets of this size could travel is 4 feet, and 2-3 feet is what has actually been observed in the literature. I don't think even HL could spit ketchup that far.

3) Tissue on jacket buttons: Contamination from when Lana was rolled onto her left side.

4) There still was some GSR, and not from doing a brake job on the Mercedes, either. Let's not forget that PS apparently dipped the diaper in the toilet, wiped LC and the gun, etc. Whether or not he washed, which I believe he did, these actions alone could easily have brushed off the GSR.

5) I agree. Do we know by chance whether or not PS's pants were cuffed? The only photo I saw showed them inside out.

6) A blatant lie/misstatement of the facts by LKB. I hope AJ smacks the carp out of her in his CA over this point. IMO she'll pay dearly with the jury over this one.

7) Lana was seated. Phil had a gun. End of discussion.

8) LKB can't have it both ways. At one point she tried to suggest that the gun might have still been moist when it was handled by the gloved Detective more than 12 hours later, but the clotted blood on the diaper means he rendered aid instantly? I think not!

9) Gun was wiped, Lana's head was moved from right to left, Lana's face was wiped, Phil went upstairs and took his jacket off, etc.

No staging. Nothing to see here. Who is LKB kidding?

10) (If I am correct in my recollection) Lana wasn't "covered" in spatter as LKB claims. Much of the spatter seems to have been on a downward trajectory, which is consistent with the gun barrel having been against the top of Lana's mouth. The gun and hand caught much of the spatter: it didn't have any path to get to the sleeve anyway. Phil's long coat blocked spatter from getting on his shirt and pants, not to mention we heard from Dr. Herold today that spatter on the pants could have dried up and fallen off as PS walked around.

The 10 points will be down to no more than 2 or 3 that could have any possible traction by the time the Defense presents their CiC IMO. Rebuttal and a strong CA by AJ and Dixon will easily handle any lingering doubt in the minds of the jurors, assuming of course there even will be any by that point.

Sure, LKB has her 10 points. IMO AJ and Dixon have at least 50 on their side, which makes this a pretty lopsided score.

Team Spector should be called Team Spectator for all the good they've done in this case to date.

PS in October of 2007: :behindbar
 
http://www.iowaiai.org/daubert.html

Back in 1999 a challenge to the scientific credibility of fingerprint identification was made in a Federal Criminal trial, US v. Mitchell. A Supreme Court ruling in the case of Daubert v. Merrill Dow Pharmaceuticals had stated that the trial judge was the ultimate arbiter in keeping 'junk science' out of the courtroom.

In the trial of Mitchell, his Defense made a motion for a Daubert hearing on the reliability of fingerprint evidence based on an affidavit from a Professor at GWU that there was no scientific basis for the uniqueness of fingerprints and the he did not believe that they were. This was the first Daubert test of fingerprint analysis ever conducted.

The US Atty. handling the prosecution needed to put together a team of experts to refute this contention for the Daubert hearing. He contacted the FBI, who in turn contacted a scientific group of forensic experts to put together a team of witnesses for the hearing.

Dr. Lynne Herold was a member of that team.

The article does not finish the story, but a further search indicates that the Prosuction won the Daubert hearing and Mitchell was convicted.

Dr. Herold knows her stuff. I would wager that in forensic science circles Dr. Herold is just as well respected as Spitz, Baden, DiMaio, etc.

JMO.
 
High Court Caplan's last chance

No and no. That's the word from a panel of 2nd District Court of Appeals justices. Over the lunch hour, the court denied the appeals of both Spector and Caplan concerning her refusal to testify about missing evidence. Caplan is appealing that decision to the state Supreme Court, the judge tells lawyers after a closed door meeting in chambers.

"If [the Supreme Court justices] do not grant relief, the stay will be lifted and we will proceed accordingly," Fidler says.

Accordingly meaning jail.

As soon as Herald leaves the stand, the judge explains, the defense will begin calling witnesses, but the prosecution will be allowed to interrupt to put Caplan -- or more likely a transcript of her previous testimony -- before the jury. -- Harriet Ryan

http://blog.courttv.com/phil_specto...5.html#comments
 
LKB refers to "spatter" blood collected by Henry Lee on Post-It notes on the
2nd step but I say it's a DRIP from his hand as he goes up the stairs and leaves blood on the bannister.

I hate it when LKB refers to the slip-dress as a "slip" and DR Herold as "Miss Herold" and that Linda doesn't know the difference between infer and imply. And when she referred to "pettrie dish" I, too, Rags, thought of Bonnie Meadow Drive in New Rochelle.

LKB sets my teeth on edge.
 
LKB refers to "spatter" blood collected by Henry Lee on Post-It notes on the
2nd step but I say it's a DRIP from his hand as he goes up the stairs and leaves blood on the bannister.

I hate it when LKB refers to the slip-dress as a "slip" and DR Herold as "Miss Herold" and that Linda doesn't know the difference between infer and imply. And when she referred to "pettrie dish" I, too, Rags, thought of Bonnie Meadow Drive in New Rochelle.

LKB sets my teeth on edge.
LKB reminds me of a 10-year-old who has read her first book on a subject and now has to show everyone how much she knows about it.

She honestly seems to be reading from a script. I mentioned on the other board that I thought PS would have been so much better off with someone like Barry Scheck who really understands the science. Of course, I doubt Barry would want the case if he couldn't be first chair.

I still wonder whether LKB and MB were a package deal here...
 

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