Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #2

[ChatteringBirds]

I don't believe any parents would cover up a dog attack. They'd just call 911 saying the dog was alone with the kids for a moment and attacked them.
IMO 100% something else happened.

 

[charminglane]

I think the family that is making the statement would have asked about where the dog went if there was one.
Speculation:
A dog that kills needs to be put down.
Maybe the fire (wood) is because of a dog that needed disposing.
I'm not thinking this is the case. I truly think someone like a neighbor or family would have said something about a dog missing, too.

 

[nyvictoria]

Say the little ones wandered off and were gone much longer than reported. Where are the immediate go to ideas of what would happen if your child was missing? Bodies of water, traffic, swimming pool, bathtub drowning? in someone’s car alone, an open shed, ditch, culvert?

This is the only other possible viable scenario I can think of. If they were left outside, unsupervised, for far longer than it takes to bring wood inside. Did the father leave the gate open? I know he said he saw the open gate but I can’t recall if he said he was responsible. The boys would not have been able to open the gate themselves unless the hardware was at toddler height.

As to where they could have wandered, kids can move fast and get lost easily. But, LE hasn't indicated they believe that’s what happened. I think they would have organized a large search if they felt it was at all possible. Instead they got a search warrant and dug up the back yard.

Neighbors’ security cams would have recorded strange cars and I think LE would have put out Amber Alert if any car was seen stopping in that area long enough to abduct two boys. I don’t think that’s what happened. I doubt someone wanting to abduct a child would take two. It’s more trouble than it’s worth. Older children, who could be reasoned with or scared into complying, possibly, but not two toddlers. Would an abductor have two car seats? There’s a risk of being stopped for children not being secured in car seats. It’s just not feasible.

Where are Orson and Orrin?

 

[Teche]

When my mother was murdered I was the one to find her. I was with LE and they had kicked in the door to find her murdered on the foyer floor. MY MOTHER! My best friend on this earth and the woman I loved with all of my heart. For a minute, I was a person of interest and I have to say at that moment and for the whole 12 hours that they grilled me and my sister I could not cry. I was matter of fact, I was shocked, I was stunned, but I didn't cry, I didn't feel. When an officer offered me condolences I actually pretended to cry so that they didn't keep considering me a POI in the murder. In fact, I asked not to see the body again to say goodbye and we wanted her cremated as soon as the autopsy was done. AND then...a week later, I couldn't stop crying and I've cried every day for two years and now I have PTSD from the event...so I have to say, we all do act differently...we just do. I don't think that means the parents weren't involved, I don't know, we have so few facts in the case, but I do know, based on my own reactions, we do all act very differently. I did the same thing when my baby brother died. I was actually happy cause he'd had such a long battle with cancer and then two days later I was never the same again...

So sorry for your loss.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Ooohhh, I hadn't thought of that. "Yeah, I use the fireplace all the time. It's December...."

Good thinking.

If they were actually using the fireplace on a daily or even weekly basis, they would most likely have a pile or stack of firewood somewhere nearby.

The kind of branches and twigs he could have collected in that field would make a nice fire for about twenty minutes. Any longer, or on multiple days, and the field would have been stripped bare in no time.

Water. Traffic. Cars/trunks. Hiding.

If I lost a child outside, I wouldn't start my search inside.

JMO

More options in which the adoptive parents are innocent, at least of direct harm:

What if the boys actually wandered away several hours or even days earlier than reported?

Empty houses. Refrigerators. Basements. Locking/latching cabinets.

What's the deal with the rumor of a hidden room in the detached garage -- is that real? Is there anywhere in there that LE might have missed? A hidden closet in the hidden room etc?

More thoughts: if the neighbors have never seen ANY kids there, and there are no toys etc in the yard, and yet the LE says there was evidence at least some kids did live there, that starts to sound like the kids were locked inside, Turpin-like. In which case O & O could have disappeared at any point in time, either before or after the family move.

What are the other four children telling LE about how long since they've seen O & O? Hopefully at least a few of those kids are old enough to give a reliable report.

Lastly -- can someone link me to how we know all six are boys? I didn't think we had seen anything specifying the sex of the other four.

MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

Ikr. When a reporter asked JW for some recent pictures of Orrin and Orson JW said she couldn't provide them because LE "took their tech". Even if they didn't post any on social media you'd think they'd send some to their family [theoretically]. Like "Hey can I get that pic I sent you last week because we're making a missing poster of the boys". It's a whopping 9 cents to print out a picture at Wally World lol. No one could donate 9 cents to them? I think her recent pictures would be able to show if they were ever at the house or not, and what their physical states were

I'm doubting they even have any recent pictures of the boys. The mom said she had them on her phone.

They could have coordinated with police on that first day to use current pictures. LE would have requested the most recent photos be used for the missing persons poster. Imo

 

[nannymo]

I f you read the letter from the family they talk about them all being boys I think.

 

[Knox]

I'm doubting they even have any recent pictures of the boys. The mom said she had them on her phone.

They could have coordinated with police on that first day to use current pictures. LE would have requested the most recent photos be used for the missing persons poster. Imo

Why hasn't this been done, I keep asking myself this question?

 

[Megnut]

We learned about presplaining from the Stauch case. The guilty party spouted her mouth, offering up details which we later came to understand as answers she contorted to fit questions law enforcement had for her (cuts and gates, keys and blood).

....the children don't go on the dirt....

That sounds like a presplain to me.

Because the likely question was -- why are there no footprints?

Or another, why aren't there more recent photos?

...because they're all on my phone....

You tell me -- did that interview serve to convey concern for the boys and beg for help in locating them? Or was it designed to explain away blame?

What does rambunctious have to do with anything????

Perhaps they'll grant media another interview. To clear the air....

JMO

 

[MoeInVA]

Snipped by me for focus

I would love feedback & if possible a link if it has already been provided to give my thoughts a foundation to build on. As I said these are MY OWN THOUGHTS & CURIOSITIES.

1. Have you ever followed a case 3 weeks in with as little clues as this? The reason I ask is to be able to go research your link to find out why. I have faith in the LE & do believe they have many of the pieces to this puzzle minus the “whereabouts of the boys”. What I don’t understand is why the extended families aren’t speaking up? Let us help you find your boys! What were your observation on the interview? Was your family member (TW &/or JW) acting normal for their stress level?

These are all great points ! Yes I have followed a case where they have done this ... and it’s normally in my opinion because they know exactly what is going on... but they can not locate the victim/ victims or in this case the little boys. The chief has made it clear early on he suspected foul play and that says a lot. I don’t normally get involved in children’s cases , but this one has stuck with me and those 2 IMO need tremendous pressure publicly too.

@Rachelj1 - can you link to a case you are thinking of that is like this (3 weeks in etc)?

@Bbybluz - Great question! I am fairly new to websleuths, so the only missing children case I can think of that is comparable in taking so long is the Vallow- Daybell case.

When a family is isolated from others, moves around, there is no body or bodies and the parents/step-parents/ mom and boyfriend stick together, it takes more time to build a case JMO. In the Vallow Daybell case, they finally made arrests on lesser charges and then the case finally broke based on cellphone evidence primarily.

Up thread (maybe thread #1?) I looked for cases where a child went missing and the parents/ mom and BF were both later charged. In both of those cases, the truth came out after the body was found. One body was found quickly, one over a year after death. In both those cases, the non-abuser who helped in the cover up was the first to confess after the body was found. The primary abuser in those two cases was the mom. FWIW.

I don’t put much stock in analysis of the body language etc of the TW and JW interview. But FWIW one moment did strike me. JW reached out to touch TW and he pulled away. That struck me. Plus no holding hands or comforting each other in this difficult crisis.

I know in my experience going into tough situations with my spouse, funerals, hospitals, even when it was our first marriage counseling appointment over heavy conflict, we were holding hands way more, not less. We held each other closer. Everyone is different, but just noting this.

 

[LietKynes]

We learned about presplaining from the Stauch case. The guilty party spouted her mouth, offering up details which we later came to understand as answers she contorted to fit questions law enforcement had for her (cuts and gates, keys and blood).

....the children don't go on the dirt....

That sounds like a presplain to me.

Because the likely question was -- why are there no footprints?

Or another, why aren't there more recent photos?

...because they're all on my phone....

You tell me -- did that interview serve to convey concern for the boys and beg for help in locating them? Or was it designed to explain away blame?

What does rambunctious have to do with anything????

Perhaps they'll grant media another interview. To clear the air....

JMO

Excellent points !

 

[Bbybluz]

I don’t put much stock in analysis of the body language etc of the TW and JW interview. But FWIW one moment did strike me. JW reached out to touch TW and he pulled away.

Very good points! Now as for the quoted part above... ya have me checking out the interview again. How did I miss the touch & pull away?! Great eye!

I do take stock into “body language” more then I ever had before. Our grandson was born 95% deaf & autistic. We didn’t know either one at the beginning because he has “high functional autism”. He is able to attend mainstream school but unable usually to read others body language. So this is something we are teaching him.

I tend now to notice more.

 

[MoeInVA]

Very good points! Now as for the quoted part above... ya have me checking out the interview again. How did I miss the touch & pull away?! Great eye!

I do take stock into “body language” more then I ever had before. Our grandson was born 95% deaf & autistic. We didn’t know either one at the beginning because he has “high functional autism”. He is able to attend mainstream school but unable usually to read others body language. So this is something we are teaching him.

I tend now to notice more.

I just clicked a link to see if I could find the timestamp and i think it was probably the very beginning of the first clip released. Go to Second 12. Then she reaches out and he flinches away. JMO https://twitter.com/bayanwang/status/1341870899071340546?s=20

ETA also seems to be followed by heavy breathing by TW. While JW retracts and does not attempt further contact.

 

[nyvictoria]

I'm doubting they even have any recent pictures of the boys. The mom said she had them on her phone.
LE would have requested the most recent photos be used for the missing persons poster. Imo

I’d even go so far as to say LE would have recommended they print pics before their computer(s) and phones were taken. IMO they don’t have any recent pictures.

 

[MoeInVA]

I’d even go so far as to say LE would have recommended they print pics before their computer(s) and phones were taken. IMO they don’t have any recent pictures.

Definitely!!

 

[Vae Victus]

I’d even go so far as to say LE would have recommended they print pics before their computer(s) and phones were taken. IMO they don’t have any recent pictures.

Definitely and the "they took our tech" was just a very convenient excuse

 

[Koukla17]

Both of them being so calm is what gets me,I mean I understand that people react differently and its plausible for one or the other but for both to be that way sets off alarm bells for me.
I am calm and tend to just do what needs to be done in a crisis and my husband is the panic and freeze kind so I get it,and there are exceptions to that rule for us. Once one of my boys who couldn't swim fell off the steps and under the water in my Dads pool,I could see him and I knew I had to help him but I literally couldn't move and I just stood there..luckily my husband also went against his usual type and dived in and grabbed him in seconds.
None of us know how we would act if our children were missing but I find it really hard to believe that both would be so cool at the same time.

Agreed. Understandably people react differently however after all this time, I started wondering if any neighbors heard the mom screaming while the dad was out driving looking for the boys - unless she wasn't. No matter if you're typically a calm person, I can't imagine not yelling their names so the boys could hear and neighbors could help.
Thinking out loud...

 

[imstilla.grandma]

These little ones are now missing for at least 23 days and counting. This is one fact. Another:

A parent will worry for the safety and wellbeing of what the missing child is currently experiencing. The unknown can drive them to the point of trauma. Someone who cares for a child cannot bear the unknown; it goes against instinct and it goes against habitual care. Why didn’t the AP speak to this? Why did they not call out for their children? Speak their names of which they bestowed upon them?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

As far as the private investigator the extended family refers to in their letter. A PI may be able to talk to the parents in a much different manner than LE. Gaining trust through communications designed for this specific couple. Example: David Washburn with Emily Glass in the Lucas Hernandez case.

 

[JC40]

This is the only other possible viable scenario I can think of. If they were left outside, unsupervised, for far longer than it takes to bring wood inside. Did the father leave the gate open? I know he said he saw the open gate but I can’t recall if he said he was responsible. The boys would not have been able to open the gate themselves unless the hardware was at toddler height.

As to where they could have wandered, kids can move fast and get lost easily. But, LE hasn't indicated they believe that’s what happened. I think they would have organized a large search if they felt it was at all possible. Instead they got a search warrant and dug up the back yard.

Neighbors’ security cams would have recorded strange cars and I think LE would have put out Amber Alert if any car was seen stopping in that area long enough to abduct two boys. I don’t think that’s what happened. I doubt someone wanting to abduct a child would take two. It’s more trouble than it’s worth. Older children, who could be reasoned with or scared into complying, possibly, but not two toddlers. Would an abductor have two car seats? There’s a risk of being stopped for children not being secured in car seats. It’s just not feasible.

Where are Orson and Orrin?

It was cold I was going to make a fire, theres a lot of wood in this, this are right here next to our house I opened up that gate I'm throwing wood bringing it inside the house.