Cadaver dog hit on scent in DBs bedroom

[In da Middle]

For those assuming that a dog hit absolutely means a dead body was there we have this

Possibly. It would largely depend on what kind of surface the blood was deposited on.

For example, I too had an injury in the past year that produced a lot of blood inside a residence. Actually it was a trail from outside to inside, which may help explain even further.

In my situation; there was blood deposited on grass, then on dirt, then on cement, then on sealed hardwood floors, then on tile, then on a towel, then on stainless steel.

We cleaned everything up, of course- but certain surfaces retain HR scent particles (such as blood) much longer than others. The concrete, for example. Scrubbed it with bleach and can't see a thing. But one of our HRD dogs will still hit on it if we put him to work.

The tile? Scrubbed that too- but the grout retains the scent. He'll hit on that also. The sealed hardwood floors- no. The towel we threw away, so I've no idea, lol. If we hadn't thrown it away, I guarantee he'd be hitting on that. The stainless steel- no. But that's because it is a sink, and not a sealed stainless steel container.

Does that make any sense?

post # 153 on HRD dog info thread

 

[Oriah]

For those assuming that a dog hit absolutely means a dead body was there we have this

post # 153 on HRD dog info thread

Correct. If the dog was trained only to alert on human decomp NOS, then it should alert on aging human blood, aging human body parts, substrates and other materials that contain aging human remains, etc. However, keep in mind some dogs are trained very, very specifically to ignore some aspects of human decomp and instead only alert to other aspects. Some are trained for large deposits of scent, some for minute scent deposits.

I find the no-fly call indicative of what type(s) of dog(s) were used- as well as the quality of handler.

ETA: the above post (mine) should be noted that it was also in reference to another post of mine- explanation of different types of blood. Insofar as that same dog will not alert on on a used sanitary pad that is five feet away from the aged blood. He's been proofed off of menstrual blood, urine, feces, vomit, and semen.

 

[natsound]

Correct. If the dog was trained only to alert on human decomp NOS, then it should alert on aging human blood, aging human body parts, substrates and other materials that contain aging human remains, etc. However, keep in mind some dogs are trained very, very specifically to ignore some aspects of human decomp and instead only alert to other aspects. Some are trained for large deposits of scent, some for minute scent deposits.

I find the no-fly call indicative of what type(s) of dog(s) were used- as well as the quality of handler.

ETA: the above post (mine) should be noted that it was also in reference to another post of mine- explanation of different types of blood. Insofar as that same dog will not alert on on a used sanitary pad that is five feet away from the aged blood. He's been proofed off of menstrual blood, urine, feces, vomit, and semen.

Thanks. This reinforces what you stated earlier, Oriah, that it's all about what these dogs are trained NOT to hit on. We have good indication that the dogs used at the Irwin house were highly specialized dogs doing highly specialized work. IMO, these dogs will be hitting only on what they were brought there to sniff out. My guess is... a recently deceased body. Maybe I'm wrong..... :dunno:

 

[In da Middle]

Correct. If the dog was trained only to alert on human decomp NOS, then it should alert on aging human blood, aging human body parts, substrates and other materials that contain aging human remains, etc. However, keep in mind some dogs are trained very, very specifically to ignore some aspects of human decomp and instead only alert to other aspects. Some are trained for large deposits of scent, some for minute scent deposits.

I find the no-fly call indicative of what type(s) of dog(s) were used- as well as the quality of handler.

ETA: the above post (mine) should be noted that it was also in reference to another post of mine- explanation of different types of blood. Insofar as that same dog will not alert on on a used sanitary pad that is five feet away from the aged blood. He's been proofed off of menstrual blood, urine, feces, vomit, and semen.

BBM
We also have to remember that the no fly zone was imposed during the search warrant search. The hit to get the search warrant was before this.

 

[Oriah]

BBM
We also have to remember that the no fly zone was imposed during the search warrant search. The hit to get the search warrant was before this.

Yep. IIRC, weren't they coming from somewhere else and LE had to wait on availability?

If that's the case, no telling what they were trained for. For all we know, could've been dogs trained in a completely different discipline.

Also may have been to isolate scent evidence. All kinds of possibilities.

 

[Boodles]

Correct. If the dog was trained only to alert on human decomp NOS, then it should alert on aging human blood, aging human body parts, substrates and other materials that contain aging human remains, etc. However, keep in mind some dogs are trained very, very specifically to ignore some aspects of human decomp and instead only alert to other aspects. Some are trained for large deposits of scent, some for minute scent deposits.

I find the no-fly call indicative of what type(s) of dog(s) were used- as well as the quality of handler.

ETA: the above post (mine) should be noted that it was also in reference to another post of mine- explanation of different types of blood. Insofar as that same dog will not alert on on a used sanitary pad that is five feet away from the aged blood. He's been proofed off of menstrual blood, urine, feces, vomit, and semen.

BBM. Oriah, can you please explain what you mean by this? What does the no-fly call imply related to the dog(s)?

 

[mck16]

BBM. Oriah, can you please explain what you mean by this? What does the no-fly call imply related to the dog(s)?

Thanks for asking this question as I have been wondering this since it was first stated. I thought it was something everyone knew and I was just uninformed. Thanks again.

 

[CHICANA]

Do the court docs state what kind of dog it was ?

 

[askfornina]

Do the court docs state what kind of dog it was ?

for you and anyone else that needs it:
http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf

"On October 17th, 2011 an FBI cadaver dog was brought into the residence upon consent of Irwin and Bradley. The cadaver dog indicated a positive "hit" for the scent of a deceased human in an area of the floor of Bradley's bedroom near the bed."

 

[Oriah]

BBM. Oriah, can you please explain what you mean by this? What does the no-fly call imply related to the dog(s)?

Temporary flight restrictions are usually due to one of three things. VIP, security, hazard. Working dogs can fall into any of those categories.

Media can also be a problem, if dogs and handers are distracted or do not want media filming.

 

[mck16]

Temporary flight restrictions are usually due to one of three things. VIP, security, hazard. Working dogs can fall into any of those categories.

Media can also be a problem, if dogs and handers are distracted or do not want media filming.

I was watchiing this search and as I recall they were also searchiing the wooded area that I believe they have searched several times. My thoughts when I heard that the no-fly had been called was because they had found something in the woods and they did not want this location filmed so as not to disclose the location of the findings. I remember feeling that they had located LB. jmo

 

[JeannaT]

BBM:
We have certainly gone round and round on this- but can you please clarify this with a link? I have no idea how anyone would know this (or if they did....would release it publically?)
TIA.

We have gone round and round about this, I agree, and I've said a couple times in the past that it's my own deduction.

Here's why.

1. There's clearly a dog "hit" on the area of the carpet, and it's referenced in the search warrant.

2. When the search warrant was executed, many of us were watching live stream of the activity, and there was a dog that went in to the house fairly early on and came out after a short period of time - less than 20 minutes. Very early in the newsstream that day.

3. No carpet was removed from the bedroom.

So I'm deducing, the reason no carpet was removed from the bedroom is because the second dog - possibly a more reliable dog - did not confirm the hit.

NOTE: I'm not saying the first dog was incapable. He was obviously a trusted dog, but maybe not the BEST dog. You can't have your most talented dogs do everything, go on every single search, they'd wear out. But you can certainly bring them in to confirm a possible hit.

So that's my deduction.

I can't think of another explanation for why they didn't remove carpet.

And I know some posters think when they listed "floor" in the search warrant, LE didn't actually mean "floor" when they said it, but I think they did.

So. I can't provide a link to my thought process, I can just describe where the thought process comes from.

;D So I guess this posting falls under the category of "here's what I think happened" that I so often see on these forums, and links aren't needed because it's what the poster thinks happened. I'm backing up my "here's what I think happened" by specific details.

 

[josie1986]

We have gone round and round about this, I agree, and I've said a couple times in the past that it's my own deduction.

Here's why.

1. There's clearly a dog "hit" on the area of the carpet, and it's referenced in the search warrant.

2. When the search warrant was executed, many of us were watching live stream of the activity, and there was a dog that went in to the house fairly early on and came out after a short period of time - less than 20 minutes. Very early in the newsstream that day.

3. No carpet was removed from the bedroom.

So I'm deducing, the reason no carpet was removed from the bedroom is because the second dog - possibly a more reliable dog - did not confirm the hit.

NOTE: I'm not saying the first dog was incapable. He was obviously a trusted dog, but maybe not the BEST dog. You can't have your most talented dogs do everything, go on every single search, they'd wear out. But you can certainly bring them in to confirm a possible hit.

So that's my deduction.

I can't think of another explanation for why they didn't remove carpet.

And I know some posters think when they listed "floor" in the search warrant, LE didn't actually mean "floor" when they said it, but I think they did.

So. I can't provide a link to my thought process, I can just describe where the thought process comes from.

;D So I guess this posting falls under the category of "here's what I think happened" that I so often see on these forums, and links aren't needed because it's what the poster thinks happened. I'm backing up my "here's what I think happened" by specific details.

respectfully BBM, the "carpet" is never mentioned in the search warrant it only says an "in an area of the floor" so we are left to speculate on what it was.

at first i thought the carpet but ive thought for a while now it was something on the floor.one of the items taken possibly.

 

[Oriah]

We have gone round and round about this, I agree, and I've said a couple times in the past that it's my own deduction.

Here's why.

1. There's clearly a dog "hit" on the area of the carpet, and it's referenced in the search warrant.

2. When the search warrant was executed, many of us were watching live stream of the activity, and there was a dog that went in to the house fairly early on and came out after a short period of time - less than 20 minutes. Very early in the newsstream that day.

3. No carpet was removed from the bedroom.

So I'm deducing, the reason no carpet was removed from the bedroom is because the second dog - possibly a more reliable dog - did not confirm the hit.

NOTE: I'm not saying the first dog was incapable. He was obviously a trusted dog, but maybe not the BEST dog. You can't have your most talented dogs do everything, go on every single search, they'd wear out. But you can certainly bring them in to confirm a possible hit.

So that's my deduction.

I can't think of another explanation for why they didn't remove carpet.

And I know some posters think when they listed "floor" in the search warrant, LE didn't actually mean "floor" when they said it, but I think they did.

So. I can't provide a link to my thought process, I can just describe where the thought process comes from.

;D So I guess this posting falls under the category of "here's what I think happened" that I so often see on these forums, and links aren't needed because it's what the poster thinks happened. I'm backing up my "here's what I think happened" by specific details.

I don't know.

However, I do know that we have been called out to clear areas after evidence has been removed. We have also been called out to bring a dog trained in a different discipline to see if an alert for something else might coincide with an HRD alert.

ETA: the no-fly for an execution of a search warrant also usually implies (or requires) a no-talk when it comes to K9 handlers and other investigators. Which means it's someone that has already been background checked to the nth degree, and has proven to be respectful of the preservation of case integrity. JMO of course, but to me that says a lot.

 

[mck16]

I don't know.

However, I do know that we have been called out to clear areas after evidence has been removed. We have also been called out to bring a dog trained in a different discipline to see if an alert for something else might coincide with an HRD alert.

Oriah, do you think it odd that nothing has come of the 'hit' by the dog from LE? Or does it normally take this long to get results or has the results come back and LE is just not releasing it? tia

 

[Oriah]

Oriah, do you think it odd that nothing has come of the 'hit' by the dog from LE? Or does it normally take this long to get results or has the results come back and LE is just not releasing it? tia

Which dog are you referring to, mck16?

 

[mck16]

Which dog are you referring to, mck16?

I am referring to the hit by the cadaver dog in DB's bedroom. Sorry, I didn't know there was more than one. Where did the other occurr if ore than one? tia

 

[Oriah]

I am referring to the hit by the cadaver dog in DB's bedroom. Sorry, I didn't know there was more than one. Where did the other occurr if ore than one? tia

I was just making sure I understood the question.

There is nothing in MSM that point to any other alerts, but that does not mean there weren't any. Thus the whole media shutdown during the execution of the SW.

Regarding the initial alert (the one that was grounds for the SW) since we don't know what evidence was taken into custody, we can't really have any idea of how long it would take to be processed, or whether it would be released to the public at all.
Make sense?

 

[MissJames]

Temporary flight restrictions are usually due to one of three things. VIP, security, hazard. Working dogs can fall into any of those categories.

Media can also be a problem, if dogs and handers are distracted or do not want media filming.

Oriah,
If a tracking dog(not cadaver) was brought in,would the no fly zone also be because skin cells would be scattered making it difficult for a tracking dog to search?

I have wondered if they tried to track DB or JI's ( or even Jersey's.since he is in custody) steps into an area near the home where Lisa's body may have been left.

 

[mck16]

I was just making sure I understood the question.

There is nothing in MSM that point to any other alerts, but that does not mean there weren't any. Thus the whole media shutdown during the execution of the SW.

Regarding the initial alert (the one that was grounds for the SW) since we don't know what evidence was taken into custody, we can't really have any idea of how long it would take to be processed, or whether it would be released to the public at all.
Make sense?

Makes perfect sense. Thank you. So we can't take the silence as meaning there was nothing at all either, can we?

I am thinking you and your team must be involved in so many cases and it must be hard not knowing results. Thanks to you and your wonderful dog for your work. jmo