Can You Call a 9-yo a Psychopath?

[the seeker]

Only about 1 percent of the population are "true" psychopaths. There are believed to be more sociopaths.I am a few credits away from getting my Masters in psychology and have ran into many different schools of thought on the subject. Many experts don't even agree on the difference between the two, some even believe they are the same. It's definitely an area that needs more study and defining. Some psychologists believe true psychopaths are born that way and are extremely rare. Others think that committing horrible acts without a conscience for the sheer ENJOYMENT is what makes a psychopath whereas someone who commits horrible crimes to gain something (money, love, fame) is a sociopath and that sociopaths are developed, not born. It pretty much depends on the source what answer you are going to get.

Good friends of mine who are parents to four girls are very loving, caring, nurturing patents and yet ONE of their girls has been diagnosed with several conduct disorders to include oppositional defiant disorder. Her psychiatrist told them that she "could" grow up to be a psychopath. So, they've had her on meds and behavioral treatments and although not "normal" compared to her siblings, she has come a long way. Is she a psychopath at 8 years old (age of diagnosis)? Who knows..... All depends on who you ask, and I guess that's my whole point of this post; be careful when labeling a child something like that...especially when so little is known and agreed upon by the experts.

 

[the seeker]

It's really astounding to me in that in all this discussion of these serious behavioral and emotional issues in children, there is no reference to possible nutritional causes or treatments. If you research something like the GAPS diet, you'll see a lot of documentation of cases where neurological impairment--leading to all kinds of behavioral issues--was directly tied to a digestive system being badly out of balance (without the proper bacteria to digest properly or with an overgrowth of bad bacteria). In a number of these cases, the bacteria can even produce neurotoxins that are effectively poisoning a person's brain. (The gut and the brain are very closely connected physiologically.) These kinds of issues can be passed down from parents to children, since children end up with the same gut bacteria as their parents, in most cases. In this article, it was interesting to me that the father had had serious anti-social tendencies and issues as a child that he had eventually outgrown. I don't know whether that is the answer for a child like this, but I would definitely look into trying some serious diet modification (and for the children who are the worst off, it's a pretty rigid approach for a number of years). It isn't any easy route, but it's much preferable to the alternatives.

Linnea

You make a valid point! I believe what people ingest in the way of preservatives etc. can definitely contribute to behavioral/mental issues. In one study the preservatives in bread were linked to criminal behavior.

 

[Nova]

Only about 1 percent of the population are "true" psychopaths. There are believed to be more sociopaths.I am a few credits away from getting my Masters in psychology and have ran into many different schools of thought on the subject. Many experts don't even agree on the difference between the two, some even believe they are the same. It's definitely an area that needs more study and defining. Some psychologists believe true psychopaths are born that way and are extremely rare. Others think that committing horrible acts without a conscience for the sheer ENJOYMENT is what makes a psychopath whereas someone who commits horrible crimes to gain something (money, love, fame) is a sociopath and that sociopaths are developed, not born. It pretty much depends on the source what answer you are going to get....

Thank you very much for that explanation, Seeker. No wonder I was confused! The definitions of both terms have changed even over the years I've been posting here. My husband couldn't tell me the difference and he's a licensed psychotherapist!

So a psychopath may or may not be a murderer, but s/he's akin to what we call a "thrill killer", i.e., a Ted Bundy type.

A sociopath merely wants what he wants and goes about getting it without regard for how his actions affect others. So a professional hitman is probably a sociopath, but may not be a psychopath. In fact, being a psychopath might be bad for business.

But, as you say, some authorities don't believe there is a difference. Do I have the general idea?

 

[Sonya610]

I think Ted Bundy and probably Jeffrey Dahmer were psychopaths since childhood, IIRC they were both abusing and killing animals at a very young age, and that to me is the definition of a child psychopath. The majority of children instinctively want to touch or pet an animal, as far as I know, not beat, burn or otherwise destroy them. JMO

Jeffrey Dahmer NEVER tortured animals. He did have a fascination with road kill but that is completely different, the animals died accidental deaths. I am not sure about Ted Bundy, but seeing as how Dahmer is frequently cited as torturing animals and it is false, then it might be false about Ted too.

 

[Nova]

Jeffrey Dahmer NEVER tortured animals. He did have a fascination with road kill but that is completely different, the animals died accidental deaths. I am not sure about Ted Bundy, but seeing as how Dahmer is frequently cited as torturing animals and it is false, then it might be false about Ted too.

I'm not sure that's "completely" different, Sonya, but then I don't know to what extent Dahmer was "fascinated".

When my nephew was 7 or 8, he did me the honor of showing me his secret stash of "treasures" in his backyard. Mostly interesting rocks, but he had also found a snake's skull somewhere and added it to his cache. (The skull was thoroughly bare and dry when he found it.)

I didn't think that was unusual for a boy his age and he certainly didn't grow up to be a psychopath or sociopath. I mention this only to admit that most kids probably have a stage where they are curious about dead animal remains. The question is whether a child is obsessed with the subject.

 

[badhorsie]

Mary Bell is a very interesting example. She's been freed from prison for about 15 years and has gone on to live a perfectly law abiding life, so I'm not sure how accurate a childhood diagnosis of psychopathy can really be.

Gitta Sereny wrote a brilliant book about the Mary Bell case Cries Unheard, incredibly well researched and with heartbreaking detail. Mary was a severely neglected child and most likely abused. I am not making excuses for her, she was a disturbed child , but a psychopath? I don't think so.

I have nursed many patients who have been misdiagnosed with personality disorders and suffered greatly for it, even to the extent of suicide

And no, I am uncharmable and with 30 years psych nursing behind me I can spot a personality disorder a mile away

 

[Sonya610]

So a psychopath may or may not be a murderer, but s/he's akin to what we call a "thrill killer", i.e., a Ted Bundy type.

A sociopath merely wants what he wants and goes about getting it without regard for how his actions affect others. So a professional hitman is probably a sociopath, but may not be a psychopath. In fact, being a psychopath might be bad for business.

What happens when a sociopath decides he wants to torture or kill someone for the heck of it, because it sounds like fun and that is what he wants? Then he magically becomes a psychopath? Wait...Sociopaths are made psychopaths are born...gosh it gets confusing.

There are no absolutes, all shades of gray. They make up those terms as they go along. You can't swing a stick on wallstreet without hitting a few sociopaths....they just don't happen to like the idea of killing folk, or maybe they do but they care about their own skins to much.

 

[the seeker]

Thank you very much for that explanation, Seeker. No wonder I was confused! The definitions of both terms have changed even over the years I've been posting here. My husband couldn't tell me the difference and he's a licensed psychotherapist!

So a psychopath may or may not be a murderer, but s/he's akin to what we call a "thrill killer", i.e., a Ted Bundy type.

A sociopath merely wants what he wants and goes about getting it without regard for how his actions affect others. So a professional hitman is probably a sociopath, but may not be a psychopath. In fact, being a psychopath might be bad for business.

But, as you say, some authorities don't believe there is a difference. Do I have the general idea?

Yep

 

[the seeker]

Jeffrey Dahmer NEVER tortured animals. He did have a fascination with road kill but that is completely different, the animals died accidental deaths. I am not sure about Ted Bundy, but seeing as how Dahmer is frequently cited as torturing animals and it is false, then it might be false about Ted too.

They would find the heads of dogs etc nailed to trees in the woods near Dahmers house but noone knows whether he killed the animals or not. I don't recall ever hearing about Bundy mistreating animals. Bundy himself stated that his downfall was *advertiser censored*....started on low scale then nothing but violence turned him on as he desensitized himself to normal sexual behavior/acts. That was his reasoning given shortly before execution.

 

[the seeker]

Gitta Sereny wrote a brilliant book about the Mary Bell case Cries Unheard, incredibly well researched and with heartbreaking detail. Mary was a severely neglected child and most likely abused. I am not making excuses for her, she was a disturbed child , but a psychopath? I don't think so.

I have nursed many patients who have been misdiagnosed with personality disorders and suffered greatly for it, even to the extent of suicide

And no, I am uncharmable and with 30 years psych nursing behind me I can spot a personality disorder a mile away

I agree. I believe had Mary's situation at home been different, she would not have committed those crimes. Mary's mother was a prostitute who turned tricks in front of Mary and it has even been suggested that she involved Mary with the men. How tragic....a young child who is treated like nothing more than an object will more or less treat others like objects to be used. It's all part of the schemas the mind creates due to experience. Mary's schemas from very early about other people were based on how she was treated...all bond of the bonding/reciprocation process that was badly damaged (but somewhat repairable because she was so young) in that small child. Heartbreaking.

 

[Nova]

They would find the heads of dogs etc nailed to trees in the woods near Dahmers house but noone knows whether he killed the animals or not. I don't recall ever hearing about Bundy mistreating animals. Bundy himself stated that his downfall was *advertiser censored*....started on low scale then nothing but violence turned him on as he desensitized himself to normal sexual behavior/acts. That was his reasoning given shortly before execution.

I don't think we can trust what Bundy said. He was getting a lot of attention from anti-*advertiser censored* crusaders at the time.

(Not that I'm fond of violent imagery, mind you. I just think it's very convenient that Bundy found something to blame other than himself AND became the poster boy for certain activists at the same time. IIRC, he even petitioned the State of Florida for a stay of execution on the ground that studying him might help medical science prevent future psychopaths.)

 

[Nova]

What happens when a sociopath decides he wants to torture or kill someone for the heck of it, because it sounds like fun and that is what he wants? Then he magically becomes a psychopath? Wait...Sociopaths are made psychopaths are born...gosh it gets confusing.

There are no absolutes, all shades of gray. They make up those terms as they go along. You can't swing a stick on wallstreet without hitting a few sociopaths....they just don't happen to like the idea of killing folk, or maybe they do but they care about their own skins to much.

Well, given my limited and lay understanding of the definitions that The Seeker gave us, in your example it would seem the sociopath was simply misdiagnosed and later revealed himself to be a psychopath. Or maybe the two categories aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree with you that there is plenty of gray around the edges of all psychological disorders. But it is helpful, at least in lay terms, to distinguish between someone who simply has no empathy (like my father, a career con man, but to my knowledge, not particularly violent) and someone who actually craves the thrill of committing violence.

 

[Roxye]

I think Ted Bundy and probably Jeffrey Dahmer were psychopaths since childhood, IIRC they were both abusing and killing animals at a very young age, and that to me is the definition of a child psychopath. The majority of children instinctively want to touch or pet an animal, as far as I know, not beat, burn or otherwise destroy them. JMO

But what if a parent intervene to show this child what they were doing wrong? Yes, a young child might not understand the ramifications. My own son, loved a kitten to death, literally, when he was 3 years old. He didn't understand what he was doing. No, he never thru a kitten against a wall, but the implications are still the same. He didn't 'understand' at that early age, his actions were wrong....period.

He is 11 now. He would never dream of hurting a helpless animal or human. Just yesterday he came in to tell me that a neighborhood boy was terrifying a momma bird and her babies. He KNEW it was wrong from what I taught him.

Nurture, not nature... MOO

 

[drip~drop]

i had an experience with one of my neighbors kids. when my youngest was 7 and he was 3. she was out front of my house playing with his sister and they didn't want to play with him. he picked up a brick and hit my daughter in the head. she ended up in the ER for stitches. instead of his mom telling him he shouldn't have done that, she asks me where was i, why didn't i tell my daughter to let him play with them. excuse me but i was sitting on the steps and he did it before i could even open my mouth. i stopped him from hitting her a second time. and personally i don't believe that i should have forced my daughter to play with him...its not like they were the same age and gender. my daughter and the sister were and were playing together.

i moved shortly after that but i often wonder how he is now. i remember i'd be sitting there on the steps and he would come up and try to karate kick me in the head...nice 3 year old. his mom would laugh.

:shudder: Now i know why I now love the country and would never go back to civilization.

 

[Roxye]

:shudder: Now i know why I now love the country and would never go back to civilization.

Nurture? Nature?

 

[Sonya610]

I agree with you that there is plenty of gray around the edges of all psychological disorders. But it is helpful, at least in lay terms, to distinguish between someone who simply has no empathy (like my father, a career con man, but to my knowledge, not particularly violent) and someone who actually craves the thrill of committing violence.

I think they are two separate conditions that happen to be really really bad when they coincide. Lots of people like the idea of committing violence, whether it be in war, or vigilante justice, or watching violent films and enjoying it. That is generally not a problem BUT if the utter lack of empathy matches up to the lust for violence, and a few other screws are loose the picture can get bad.

Lots of people (more than most think) lack empathy towards many or most others. I say that because I consider myself to have mild sociopathic traits, I don't bond normally with other humans. My non-scientific studies have also shown me that sociopathic/misanthropic personalities gravitate to others that are likeminded, so I have known more than a few (of the non criminal variety) that had similar traits.

I read a study recently that said psychopaths DO have normal emotional reactions in some situations, yet at other times they feel no emotion/empathy at all. That probably explains "some" of the cases of people saying "but he was such a nice guy" even after horrid acts are committed, it also explains how Ted Bundy had a long term girlfriend. They weren't stupid, the emotions WERE real but the emotions are conditional.

BTW I am a hard core animal lover and have done rescue in one way or another most of my life, which is also not unusual. No it isn't because they "offer unconditional love" and I was damaged by humans and all that b_s. Some animals can be a real pain, and not at all loving or pleasant, BUT they are non-human animals and always innocent no matter what they do. They always deserve protection and empathy.

 

[Nova]

But what if a parent intervene to show this child what they were doing wrong? Yes, a young child might not understand the ramifications. My own son, loved a kitten to death, literally, when he was 3 years old. He didn't understand what he was doing. No, he never thru a kitten against a wall, but the implications are still the same. He didn't 'understand' at that early age, his actions were wrong....period.

He is 11 now. He would never dream of hurting a helpless animal or human. Just yesterday he came in to tell me that a neighborhood boy was terrifying a momma bird and her babies. He KNEW it was wrong from what I taught him.

Nurture, not nature... MOO

Accident are still accidents. I'm told I was given a baby chick for Easter when I was 3 (stupid parents) and clutched it so firmly I killed it. As with your son, that was an accident. And, yes, parents need to intervene and teach children to handle animals with care. But such accidents aren't signs of psychopathy, just poor understanding and undeveloped motor skills.

 

[davehead21]

I don't think we can trust what Bundy said. He was getting a lot of attention from anti-*advertiser censored* crusaders at the time.

(Not that I'm fond of violent imagery, mind you. I just think it's very convenient that Bundy found something to blame other than himself AND became the poster boy for certain activists at the same time. IIRC, he even petitioned the State of Florida for a stay of execution on the ground that studying him might help medical science prevent future psychopaths.)

I completely agree. I'm sorry, but watching hardcore *advertiser censored* does not turn a person into a psychopathic serial killer. The notion is just absurd.

 

[the seeker]

Perhaps Bundy was blaming his sexual sadism on *advertiser censored*, because I do believe he was one.

 

[the seeker]

I completely agree. I'm sorry, but watching hardcore *advertiser censored* does not turn a person into a psychopathic serial killer. The notion is just absurd.

Don't know what you consider hard core, but violent *advertiser censored* most certainly CAN cause someone to behave in a certain way. Of course not everybody who watches it turns into a serial killer, THAT notion is absurd, but to the right person it certainly can lead to murder.