Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #12

[LoisLane]

Can everyone please take a deep breath and get along? We are all trying our best, we are experiencing all kinds of emotions and it is definetly showing these past few days. I am torn up about all of this, all the ideas, the sleuthing, the wishful thinking, the nightmares. I think it is fair to say we all care a great deal for this family and we are all just trying our best. It is obvious that some have a background of expertise that comes in handy here, that has made my experience here very educating, so thank you. I am just a mom of a 6 year old boy who I love deeply and I know him and Nathan could have been the best of buds. So what I offer here on this forum is my momma instincts and my hope for a more positive outcome, that is all I am searching for.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I don't know if it's ever possible to get inside the mind of a mass murderer, to understand their anger/rage, or to find a way to deal with it.

I spoke with my family member who has worked in corrections interviewing violent criminals his whole life and his words were: "Don't try to figure these guys out or ask why they do what they do, they just kill people and that's all there is to it. It can be and a lot of the time it's over something as little as a 'put down' and they're no big mystery to figure out, most of them have the same personality disorders and there's just people in the world who kill people." Sad but true. He was referencing more time bomb types, not sex offenders who have different motivations to kill. We may never know the reason behind this terrible tragedy even though LE and the lawyers might think they do, it could be over something no one would've guessed.

 

[sublimemumma]

So I am fairly new to how the whole court thing plays out. I am wondering what we can expect from next weeks court date... Will they release any info or just say when the actual trial will start?

 

[wendiesan]

Sun News, August 5, 2014
Transcript of Sun News news report regarding the Calgary Police Service sending investigators to Mexico.
This is not an official draft, and is not connected to any of the participants.
This is a rough draft, and alll errors are my own.

Calgary Police investigation goes into Mexico
News Anchor = Beatrice Vaisman Reporter = Rob Gibson = RG

BV: The investigation into the disappearance of a Calgary family now goes international.

Calgary police confirm investigators have now turned to Mexico as they try to gather details on the disappearance and presumed murder of the family. Alvin and Kathy Liknes and their five year old grandson, Nathan O'Brien, have been missing since June 30th.

Douglas Garland, from Airdrie, Alberta, has been charged in connection with these suspected deaths.

More now on this developing story, let's bring in our Rob Gibson. He's standing by in Calgary. And, Rob, police officials have largely remained mum about this very case, but what have you been able to find out today?

RG: Well Beatrice, I just got off the phone with the police department, and they have confirmed that officers are working with Mexican authorities. They are in Mexico. They would not go into the exact location of where they are, but, before this investigation began, we did learn that the Garland family and the Liknes family combined, have some property in Mexico.

We don't know whose specifically that property is, but we do know that they had intended to sell off their property here in Calgary, move to Mexico for a while before going back to Edmonton. So, presumably, that is the location where police are investigating.

They tell me they are making sure that they leave no stone unturned in this investigation. They're essentially, the way they described it to me, crossing their t's and dotting the i's, in this investigation. They understand that there are many unanswered questions and that they do know more than they are revealing. But they won't say anything else because this case is now before the courts and, as you mentioned, Douglas Garland goes back before the courts on August 14th. Beatrice.

BV: Rob, where does the investigation stand in Alberta itself? You know, they were combing several different properties across that province. So are they still looking at several or like any region in particular in Airdrie, Alberta, or in the Calgary region?

RG: Well, they spent a great deal of time - almost two weeks at the farm owned by Douglas Garland's parents in Airdrie. They have now wrapped up that investigation. They are no longer on that farm. They have also closed down the Parkhill location where the Likneses had lived, and they are not investigating there. But, at the end of the process, what they did tell us was that they had a thirty day plan that they were going to follow through on. And this trip to Mexico is part of that thirty day plan.

I expect to hear more details on where the investigation is at when we attend the court hearing on August 14th. At that point, because of the difficulty and the amount of evidence that has been laid out before the defence attorney, they'll have more details on exactly where this investigation is at. Beatrice.

BV: Certainly they want to get all the details together before the prime suspect in this case, Douglas Garland, appears in court next--in just a few weeks now. Rob, thank you for breaking this down for us.

RG: Any time.

BV: That's our Rob Gibson reporting live from our Calgary bureau.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

There is a heavy risk involved in potentially playing that game.

"In February, Vader filed a $150,000 lawsuit against the RCMP and claimed they set him up on a false charge of obstructing justice. That charge was also stayed shortly before Vader was scheduled to go on trial.

Vader alleges RCMP officers never meant for him to stand trial on the obstruction charge and only meant to damage his credibility and block his bail application. Police also hoped to increase Vader’s “mental stress” and buy themselves time to gather evidence against him, the lawsuit stated."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...gainst-man-accused-of-alberta-couples-murder/

Thanks for the info, quite interesting. And yes, true, very risky probably too risky…but this case seems to twist and turn so who knows….

 

[news.talk]

Absolutely. I would never discuss what was said no matter how hard. Too much respect for all aspects of the situation and all those involved. It's not my first rodeo in situations like this. Police are human too and need to talk sometimes to trusted individuals outside the circle. It's not as if they tell all, but emotions are high and talking helps. I pride myself on being trustworthy. I dont think I know anything that could let a suspect walk free if leaked, but why take that risk and break that trust.

I also wanted to say that I'm in awe of this site. Mature discussions and opinions being shared. Great info being sluethed. It's very admirable.

What seems innocuous may in fact be damaging. In the case we are discussing, LE have purposely been very tight lipped and leaks have been almost non-existent. They are trying to make a high profile triple homicide case without bodies. The smallest detail could potentially hurt the Crown's case. Without context, we do not know what is important and what is not.

I hear you about these men and women needing a sounding board... Every homicide my dad investigated took a part of his soul which he never got back. He mentally went over every detail of every case - every day of his life. Long after retirement, he would still wake in cold sweats, screaming and physically thrashing from what he saw on the job decades earlier. The cases he couldn't solve destroyed him. He knew every victims name and stayed in touch with many of their family's.

These wonderful and courageous people working this and every other case, deserve our respect and our discretion. For the lifetime they give up, I figure it is the least we can do.

Thanks again and glad you joined us!

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Disclosure is something that is ongoing up until trial, not something that just occurs at the time of trial (unless it is newly discovered evidence). The Crown has a duty to disclose in a timely fashion to the defence team and would be required to provide expert evidence (the ME's reports/conclusions) to the defence within a reasonable time from when the Crown themselves became privy to it. Failing to do so could possibly result in a mistrial. Provisions are set out in the Criminal Code of Canada, and failure to abide by them can have serious consequences.

This is a good article I have bookmarked from the Criminal Lawyers Association of Canada (but relates specifically to Ontario from the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General; shouldn't vary much from province to province, if at all):

http://www.criminallawyers.ca/members/sharedocs/docs/March2006/PM_2005_No_35.pdf

Thanks sillybilly, great link! A mistrial would not be good, so likely they're playing by the rules. I did notice they do have the choice to withhold or restrict disclosure with permission, but again if risk for a mistrial it's highly unlikely. Wow, the law is sure interesting...

 

[wendiesan]

I am not a writer but rather a broadcast journalist, so I make the occasional written error. I abhore hearing on air people using contractions - it's plain lazy!

Unless it's a Martha Graham contraction. That is just plain hard work!!! :bow:

 

[news.talk]

Can everyone please take a deep breath and get along? We are all trying our best, we are experiencing all kinds of emotions and it is definetly showing these past few days. I am torn up about all of this, all the ideas, the sleuthing, the wishful thinking, the nightmares. I think it is fair to say we all care a great deal for this family and we are all just trying our best. It is obvious that some have a background of expertise that comes in handy here, that has made my experience here very educating, so thank you. I am just a mom of a 6 year old boy who I love deeply and I know him and Nathan could have been the best of buds. So what I offer here on this forum is my momma instincts and my hope for a more positive outcome, that is all I am searching for.

Hey... Do not ever minimize the wisdom, experience and instinct a mother possesses! A child has the unique ability of teaching us lessons in life that cannot be taught or bought. In this post alone, you have shown those qualities. [emoji106]

 

[Lalalacasbah]

There are a few in every group aren't there

I've been lurking. Went many a time to post only to remind myself I had no account. It's been interesting to read all the theories. I was born and raised in Airdrie and have a close family member with CPS who had worked on scene at the L residence. They have spoken about some aspects of what they saw, what JO said upon police arrival etc. They of course were privy to some of the evidence found on the acreage as well. They don't give me too much info as they love their job and respect the family and the investigation but I've gotten enough. Can't wait to see if my theory based on first hand cop info is anywhere near what will come out in court.

What's your thoughts on DG? Do you think LE is on the right track?

 

[otto]

Oh boy! My apologies again! I am new here! Message board? Have you seen everything posted? I wonder if LE has most of the information that's been dug up on here! It's pretty incredible...and a fine job too! Point taken. Well, I guess what intrigues me the most is the perhaps unintentional display of entitlement to dissect someone to the point of oblivion as a matter of discussion. It just really bothers me because IMO every person has the right to be treated with dignity and respect, no matter what the circumstances. DG has not been convicted ... and my comment was in answer to a statement that was made regarding who paid for his tuition, and living expenses...not about taking the case to trial. I simply would like to know why we feel that we have the right to invade a person's privacy to the point of questioning why his parents were camping when this was happening? Why his parents haven't responded to this? Who paid for tuition when he was in his 20's and how his sister is in a relationship with AL's son? IMO, it has no bearing on this case at all, but could (and probably has) caused a lot of damage to people, who may or may not deserve it. JMO

I enjoyed your post about who thought it would be a good idea to leave the child at the home of a three day garage sale in the week that the breadwinner declared bankruptcy. I too found that unusual. I don't think it has ever been officially stated that the child was asleep. In fact, I wondered if the child was going to watch a movie with his grandfather and fall asleep. I can understand that the almost-2 year old was sleeping, but not the healthy 5 year old.

About the possibility that the victims are in Mexico, I don't think so. The trial evidence is most likely blood evidence at the Parkhill home ... enough blood from a violent incident that gave no doubt that first degree murder charges (without bodies) were warranted. I'm not surprised that we heard about police in Mexico after they were there, not before. There was the murder, the search for a suspect, the arrest on July 14, charges on July 15, and on August 6, police are in Mexico to ensure that all avenues are explored, that nothing is missed. Getting information about the condo probably took time, understanding the financial connection (Garland/Liknes joint ownership), paperwork to make the trip ... within three weeks of laying charges.

If he applied for a social insurance number at the age of 20, that means he had never filed a tax return. He didn't work prior to the age of 20, because he couldn't file a tax return without a SIN. He didn't have a scholarship with the university. Scholarships are financial transactions that require a tax record. By default, this means that his parents provided for him and paid his university degree. Is that unusual? They bought his toothpaste too. I hope that doesn't mean that he's entitled. I think many students live at home, or are supported by parents until they graduate ... if their parents can afford it. In the oil rich city, where it was suggested graduation presents are sports cars and mountain resorts, Garland's situation was not different from anyone else.

 

[LoisLane]

Hey... Do not ever minimize the wisdom, experience and instinct a mother possesses! A child has the unique ability of teaching us lessons in life that cannot be taught or bought. In this post alone, you have shown those qualities. [emoji106]

Thank you for your kind response. I am very grateful for motherhood, it has given me many valuable insights and lessons and I am only on my sixth year!

Also... I am only on my second episode of Breaking Bad! Thank god for that!

 

[news.talk]

Oh boy! My apologies again! I am new here! Message board? Have you seen everything posted? I wonder if LE has most of the information that's been dug up on here! It's pretty incredible...and a fine job too! Point taken. Well, I guess what intrigues me the most is the perhaps unintentional display of entitlement to dissect someone to the point of oblivion as a matter of discussion. It just really bothers me because IMO every person has the right to be treated with dignity and respect, no matter what the circumstances. DG has not been convicted ... and my comment was in answer to a statement that was made regarding who paid for his tuition, and living expenses...not about taking the case to trial. I simply would like to know why we feel that we have the right to invade a person's privacy to the point of questioning why his parents were camping when this was happening? Why his parents haven't responded to this? Who paid for tuition when he was in his 20's and how his sister is in a relationship with AL's son? IMO, it has no bearing on this case at all, but could (and probably has) caused a lot of damage to people, who may or may not deserve it. JMO

It is often difficult to express tone in a written forum such as this. Sarcasm, concern, disapproval... some of the emotions felt that do not always translate well. Of course there is also the frame of mind of the reader - if someone is tired or had a bad day, they might read implications that are not necessarily intended. Asking for clarification often helps, as does ignoring.

In reference to dissecting details - what is relevant to some may be ridiculous to others. Trying to understand the suspect's frame of mind helps with compiling motive. His upbringing may suggest frame of mind. We are a product of our experiences. Knowing those experiences provides reference.

 

[news.talk]

So I am fairly new to how the whole court thing plays out. I am wondering what we can expect from next weeks court date... Will they release any info or just say when the actual trial will start?

Here is a basic guide to help explain First Appearances:

http://lawfacts.ca/criminal/first-appearances

Basically, it is an information gathering appearance. The initial disclosure package is submitted to Defence Council, a plea *may* be entered, bail *may* be requested, set or denied, and a date for trial will be set.

At this time other charges may be entered and both sides often make various legal requests on the court.

The court may also impose a media ban at this time.

It is also common for the court to order a psychiatric assessment in these cases - moreso when a suspect has been on suicide watch. A plea will most likely be withheld until this is complete.

 

[CentralAlberta]

Here is a basic guide to help explain First Appearances:

http://lawfacts.ca/criminal/first-appearances

Basically, it is an information gathering appearance. The initial disclosure package is submitted to Defence Council, a plea *may* be entered, bail *may* be requested, set or denied, and a date for trial will be set.

At this time other charges may be entered and both sides often make various legal requests on the court.

The court may also impose a media ban at this time.

It is also common for the court to order a psychiatric assessment in these cases - moreso when a suspect has been on suicide watch. A plea will most likely be withheld until this is complete.

Would the media ban just be for first appearance or entire trial?

 

[wendiesan]

While this is not one of the topics currently under discussion, I think it's relevant information since websleuths is a victim friendly site.

As the Liknes/O'Brien tragedy continues to unfold, it sometimes seems to me that the victims and their surviving family members and loved ones are being looked at with suspicion and even disrespect.

It is, IMO, difficult to imagine the range of difficulties that parents, siblings, and other loved ones go through. I think that in a kind of self-protection, we who are fortunate to never have so far faced such a test of our emotional, intellectual and physical endurance, may minimize the full suffering of those survivors.

Canadian Parents of Murdered Children and Survivors of Homicide Victims Inc. (CPOMC) has published some invaluable information on their site.
The list below is, I think, a very concise reminder of what the Liknes/O'Brien family is just beginning to go through. (If the presumed murders are found to be homicides as LE believes.)

http://www.cpomc.ca/

Problems Commonly Experienced By Survivors of Homicide Victims

Isolation, helplessness.
Feelings of guilt for not having protected the victim.
Sensational and/or inaccurate media coverage.
Endless grief.
Loss of ability to function on the job, at home or in school.
The strain on marriages and the strain on family relationships.
Effects on health, faith and values.
Effects on other family members, children, friends, and co-workers.
Indifference of the community, including professionals, to the plight of survivors.
Society's attitude regarding murder as a form of entertainment.
Financial burden of medical, professional counselling, legal and funeral expenses.
Public sympathy for murderers, (i.e. their childhood, drug abuse etc.).
The feeling that the murderer, if found, gets all the help; survivors of homicide victims have few rights. They often feel that the protocol required by the judicial system is insensitive and unfair to the families and survivors of homicide victims.
Outrage about the leniency of the murderer's sentence.
Disparities in the judicial system (some punishments for "property crimes", or "white collar crimes") are as great as or greater than the crime of taking a human life).
Anger, confusion and disillusionment over a plea bargain arrangement/agreement. Feeling that these negotiations devalue the life of their loved one.
Bitterness and loss of faith in the Canadian criminal justice system
After conviction, the long appeals process begins.
Constantly reliving your tragedy through the dreaded parole process.

 

[otto]

It is often difficult to express tone in a written forum such as this. Sarcasm, concern, disapproval... some of the emotions felt that do not always translate well. Of course there is also the frame of mind of the reader - if someone is tired or had a bad day, they might read implications that are not necessarily intended. Asking for clarification often helps, as does ignoring.

In reference to dissecting details - what is relevant to some may be ridiculous to others. Trying to understand the suspect's frame of mind helps with compiling motive. His upbringing may suggest frame of mind. We are a product of our experiences. Knowing those experiences provides reference.

There is a grey area between sleuthing motive and respecting that victims are "victims"; which presumably means above reproach. It is also important to be realistic This was not a random murder. This was a targeted, planned, and organized murder. The accused and victims, minus the child, are known to each other and are apparently involved in both patent and real estate transactions. No wonder policed described the case as a "complex" ... once they got past the "mystery".

Nothing is too far out there. There are no bomb shelters on the Airdrie acreage, there is no impromptu underground dungeon, there are no water wells, and putting a body in a septic tank will really mess up the plumbing. These victims were murdered in their home, there was enough blood to confirm that there was a mortal violent incident. Given the 24 feet long drag marks, they may not be intact, but they will be found in fields, here and there, around the Airdrie acreage ... maybe 20km West, or 20km East ... but they will be found.

The motive could have been a sense in Douglas that Liknes was taking from Garland's (his) family. If the money for the Liknes retirement condo in Mexico came from the 80 year old elderly parents of Douglas, I can see that Douglas went over the edge ... especially given the bankruptcy history, and patent dispute, the dozen companies in the US, Panama, and Canada over the last 15 years. For Garland, he might have viewed it as taking advantage of his elderly parents (elder abuse) ... whom he knew would never go sun-tanning in Mazatlan, Mexico.

We are a product of our experiences, but that doesn't excuse the 20 year old that chooses to cheat on a medical school exam. Douglas made that decision, not anyone else. By the age of 20, he was cognitively equipped to make the right choice. He chose to cheat. He chose to cook meth for a living. He chose to steal the identity of a deceased child, lie about his credentials, and earn employment in BC. He chose to continue to break the law until such time that he was accused of mass murder. He probably drove his parents to the church, but at the same time, they would have known that he was unstable.

 

[news.talk]

Would the media ban just be for first appearance or entire trial?

It's hard to say if there will be a media ban ordered, given that we don't know what is contained in the discovery package.

Here is a copy of a media rules package as it relates to court coverage, procedure and releasing of information. It's a long .pdf but a good read that answers many of these questions.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...MQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNE4Ik1Zwo2xGR_Khvqihok0hG2E1g

Preliminary Inquiry:

The public can attend preliminary inquiries , and these court records are accessible. However, a judge may order a ban on publishing information about the hearing. The ban continues until the accused is discharged or, if ordered to stand trial, until the end of the accused’s trial. There is a statutory ban on publishing information about an admission or confession in a preliminary inquiry. The ban continues until the accused is discharged or, if ordered to stand trial, until the end of the accused’s trial. The judge may order that the hearing be held in private.

 

[Sillybilly]

Would the media ban just be for first appearance or entire trial?

For those so inclined .. from the horse's mouth re Publication Bans in Alberta:

http://www.albertacourts.ab.ca/portals/ext/cs/public_and_media_access_guide.pdf

 

[Sillybilly]

Well, that ought to keep everybody out of mischief for a bit

G'nite all fftobed: