Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #12

[news.talk]

Well, that ought to keep everybody out of mischief for a bit

G'nite all fftobed:

I think we gave everyone enough bedtime reading! [emoji42]

 

[otto]

While this is not one of the topics currently under discussion, I think it's relevant information since websleuths is a victim friendly site.

As the Liknes/O'Brien tragedy continues to unfold, it sometimes seems to me that the victims and their surviving family members and loved ones are being looked at with suspicion and even disrespect.

It is, IMO, difficult to imagine the range of difficulties that parents, siblings, and other loved ones go through. I think that in a kind of self-protection, we who are fortunate to never have so far faced such a test of our emotional, intellectual and physical endurance, may minimize the full suffering of those survivors.

Canadian Parents of Murdered Children and Survivors of Homicide Victims Inc. (CPOMC) has published some invaluable information on their site.
The list below is, I think, a very concise reminder of what the Liknes/O'Brien family is just beginning to go through. (If the presumed murders are found to be homicides as LE believes.)

http://www.cpomc.ca/

Nathan wasn't supposed to be there. This was a dispute between Garland and Kathryn/Alvin Liknes where he was determined to prevent them from retiring to the Garland/Liknes condo in Mexico ... where they would live for a year.

Indeed, there must be a vast abyss knowing that your child shouldn't have been there, but he was having a sleepover on the third day of an estate sale in the week of bankruptcy ... either his mother was beyond tired, she didn't know about bankruptcy and financial problems, or the Liknes couple suggested the sleepover and mom acquiesced ... what child wouldn't give in to a parent in that situation?

Nathan was caught in the middle of the estate sale, a bankruptcy, a condo in Mexico, an house in Evansburg, a patent dispute, a dozen upstart penny stock companies in 15 years, a tax shelter in Panama, and ... why was he there ... did his grandparents request that he stay in the middle of that situation? ... not blaming the victims for the death of their grandson, merely questioning the wisdom of the decisions they made that fateful night. They had all the information, Nathan's mom probably didn't.

 

[studyer]

Indeed, there must be a vast abyss knowing that your child shouldn't have been there, but he was having a sleepover on the third day of an estate sale in the week of bankruptcy ... either his mother was beyond tired, she didn't know about bankruptcy and financial problems, or the Liknes couple suggested the sleepover and mom acquiesced ... what child wouldn't give in to a parent in that situation?

Nathan was caught in the middle of the estate sale, a bankruptcy, a condo in Mexico, an house in Evansburg, a patent dispute, a dozen upstart penny stock companies in 15 years, a tax shelter in Panama, and ... why was he there ... did his grandparents request that he stay in the middle of that situation? ... not blaming the victims for the death of their grandson, merely questioning the wisdom of the decisions they made that fateful night. They had all the information, Nathan's mom probably didn't.

The bankruptcy was related to the company, and it was possible that the parents/grandparents were just going about their routine, outside that event. The bankruptcy process would, by its nature, likely be ongoing for some time. So why would regular life 'stop' during this process? (Particularly when they have been through personal bankruptcy before and knew what was involved).

"in the middle of that situation" is merely us on the internet piecing together various bits of things we learn and presuming that this somehow played out in their everyday lives. The fact that they have a tax shelter, start ups, condos, patent disputes doesn't necessarily mean that they don't still do family gatherings or have a regular, everyday family life. The fact that they did have a sleepover, that the child was there the whole day, that the estate sale seemed very 'normal', well advertised, and carefree (for lack of a better word) given the sign to 'come right in', etc. all point to people just going about their lives and not to people in panic or crisis-mode (IMO).

It is also possible that this was just a decision to have the grandson stay over with grandma and grandpa on their last night in town before relocating. That's definitely something I would think of arranging within my own family. So I'm not understanding where the suspicion comes from. All MOO of course.

 

[Coldpizza]

Hi everyone, I removed the posts that contained psychic discussion, we don't go there on WS.

Thanks and welcome all new members!

 

[bakerlady]

Just wondering what would be the likely cause for 3 bankruptcies in Canada? Credit card debt, personal loans, utilities, law suits and what else? Taxes?

In the US you can't file for back taxes, federal student loans or child support arrears but almost everything else is fair game AFAIK.

When I hear bankruptcy here in the US I always assume it's because of medical bills first but in Canada isn't that a non issue because of socialized healthcare?

 

[Cherchri]

Just wondering what would be the likely cause for 3 bankruptcies in Canada? Credit card debt, personal loans, utilities, law suits and what else? Taxes?

In the US you can't file for back taxes, federal student loans or child support arrears but almost everything else is fair game AFAIK.

When I hear bankruptcy here in the US I always assume it's because of medical bills first but in Canada isn't that a non issue because of socialized healthcare?

We don't know the reasons for the personal bankruptcies but we do know that the company bankruptcy was due in part to taxes owing in the region of $800,000.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Just wondering what would be the likely cause for 3 bankruptcies in Canada? Credit card debt, personal loans, utilities, law suits and what else? Taxes?

In the US you can't file for back taxes, federal student loans or child support arrears but almost everything else is fair game AFAIK.

When I hear bankruptcy here in the US I always assume it's because of medical bills first but in Canada isn't that a non issue because of socialized healthcare?

I think you see it a bit more in Canada with self employed people. 2 of the bankruptcies are personal and one business. The business one seems to be at least partially attributable to municipal business taxes. O&G is taxed quite heavily and it can be difficult for smaller companies to keep up. In Canada income taxes can be included in a bankruptcy and most personal bankruptcies will have at least a portion attributable to taxes. Since self employed people are often not taxed at source it's easy to run into a situation where taxes are owed .... sometimes they are putting money into the business trying to keep it afloat instead of saving for taxes or paying the household bills that still come due. Could be personal credit taken out to support the business ventures. As in the US, child and spousal support is exempt from bankruptcy as are student loans for 10 years after school is completed. We have no info at all whether AL completed any restitution to his debtors ... bankruptcy doesn't always mean one can completely walk away from one's debts, any assets over certain exemption amounts (ex. you can only have a certain amount of equity in your principal residence, car necessary for work or family, can't have RRSPs, etc,) would have to be liquidated and applied to the outstanding debts. There is a period between filing and discharge (varies according to number of bankruptcies and other factors, ) where the bankrupt must satisfy conditions such as counseling but must also report all income and expenses and the surplus must be paid to the trustee to distribute amongst the creditors. When the discharge is before the court, the bankrupt may be required to make additional payments based one income.

With a bankruptcy of an incorporated entity, the directors and shareholders are not liable for any debts unless they have provided a personal guarantee. In the case of Canada Revenue debt, the directors can be held liable for trust debt, that is money collected by the business which must be remitted to the Crown such as GST and payroll deductions. Canada Revenue doesn't often pursue the directors in the case of trust debt but can choose to.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Regardless of your brash style, you have a point, and the right to make it.

Unfortunately, sometimes the discussion is void of awareness that we are talking about human beings here. We can guarantee that everyone from DG, to family on both sides, and to friends and loved ones on both sides, are all devastated by what has, and is taking place in their lives. We should remind ourselves, and each other of that from time to time.

It's my observation that most here just desperately want to help, be it realistically, symbolically, or just as a token "trying to do something because I don't know what else to do". Lots of weird theories get thrown out there, which, IMO isn't necessarily a bad thing, because it does make you think a bit, and can inspire some new directions, or help dig up information, be it old or new, that people find helpful.

When the weird theories get thrown out there, it's also helpful to dissect it to oblivion, again with the idea that new thoughts, ideas, information etc. can be produced, and maybe, just maybe, the weird "unlikely" theory might get changed to a more "likely" one.

Any sort of new information is now tough to dig up, and much of what we need to put things together now require either a warrant, or a public release. Thus the round and round speculation. I keep hoping to read something to tweak my brain, but settle for some dissection from time to time.

Thank you very much for your kind post! Brash! lol...I'm terribly sorry...I'm typically shy and quiet! I'm just very passionate about people being treated with dignity and respect so can get really wound up. I will certainly temper that! I can see what you mean by nothing new for information so the round and round speculation is understandable. As a matter of fact, in some ways that suggests that something is sticking out like a sore thumb and has caught someone's attention for whatever reason and needs to be looked at. [modsnip] I guess I just get more incoming information than what is just in the news so I don't feel the need to poke so deep into certain things. I will be more mindful of being respectful to all comments.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I enjoyed your post about who thought it would be a good idea to leave the child at the home of a three day garage sale in the week that the breadwinner declared bankruptcy. I too found that unusual. I don't think it has ever been officially stated that the child was asleep. In fact, I wondered if the child was going to watch a movie with his grandfather and fall asleep. I can understand that the almost-2 year old was sleeping, but not the healthy 5 year old.

About the possibility that the victims are in Mexico, I don't think so. The trial evidence is most likely blood evidence at the Parkhill home ... enough blood from a violent incident that gave no doubt that first degree murder charges (without bodies) were warranted. I'm not surprised that we heard about police in Mexico after they were there, not before. There was the murder, the search for a suspect, the arrest on July 14, charges on July 15, and on August 6, police are in Mexico to ensure that all avenues are explored, that nothing is missed. Getting information about the condo probably took time, understanding the financial connection (Garland/Liknes joint ownership), paperwork to make the trip ... within three weeks of laying charges.

If he applied for a social insurance number at the age of 20, that means he had never filed a tax return. He didn't work prior to the age of 20, because he couldn't file a tax return without a SIN. He didn't have a scholarship with the university. Scholarships are financial transactions that require a tax record. By default, this means that his parents provided for him and paid his university degree. Is that unusual? They bought his toothpaste too. I hope that doesn't mean that he's entitled. I think many students live at home, or are supported by parents until they graduate ... if their parents can afford it. In the oil rich city, where it was suggested graduation presents are sports cars and mountain resorts, Garland's situation was not different from anyone else.

I absolutely agree with you Otto, that was my point exactly...there is nothing wrong with his parents providing for him at any time in his life...not when he was in University and not even now. The "entitlement" comment was not directed at DG for having been afforded this care, but towards society as a whole who feel that because someone has done something wrong, it entitles us in general to treat them without the dignity and respect afforded to all human beings.

 

[Krystine]

Nathan wasn't supposed to be there. This was a dispute between Garland and Kathryn/Alvin Liknes where he was determined to prevent them from retiring to the Garland/Liknes condo in Mexico ... where they would live for a year.

Indeed, there must be a vast abyss knowing that your child shouldn't have been there, but he was having a sleepover on the third day of an estate sale in the week of bankruptcy ... either his mother was beyond tired, she didn't know about bankruptcy and financial problems, or the Liknes couple suggested the sleepover and mom acquiesced ... what child wouldn't give in to a parent in that situation?

Nathan was caught in the middle of the estate sale, a bankruptcy, a condo in Mexico, an house in Evansburg, a patent dispute, a dozen upstart penny stock companies in 15 years, a tax shelter in Panama, and ... why was he there ... did his grandparents request that he stay in the middle of that situation? ... not blaming the victims for the death of their grandson, merely questioning the wisdom of the decisions they made that fateful night. They had all the information, Nathan's mom probably didn't.

Who lives like that, thinking they might be attacked in their own home in a quiet suburban street in Calgary, that very night?

Most of us have no reason to believe we are in peril in our lifetimes. It simply says to me the L's were regular folks, the type that believes all disputes are handled in the courts, in legal offices or in the offices of bankruptcy trustees.

To people like that, in fact to most of us, the fact that the circus or the stampede is in town (crazies out and about), that 5 people were murdered at a party elsewhere in Calgary weeks previous, that they live near a mental health facility, etc. doesn't change what they plan in their day to day lives.

The fact that the grandson was allowed to sleep over just tells me they were decent, everyday people who don't associate with dangerous people. They had no reason to feel threatened.

 

[Cherchri]

If anyone happens to visit CL's FB page, I see he is NOT AL's brother as noted in early press articles. He refers to AL as his uncle.

 

[kaley]

KLs facebook page shows that she played a puzzle game twice in July. Can anyone explain that? Someone using her iPad perhaps?

 

[goodasgold]

If anyone happens to visit CL's FB page, I see he is NOT AL's brother as noted in early press articles. He refers to AL as his uncle.

So it was his nephew that popped by that morning, that is even stranger. jmo

 

[news.talk]

KLs facebook page shows that she played a puzzle game twice in July. Can anyone explain that? Someone using her iPad perhaps?

Those posts are automated. I had similar posts from a game that I hadn't played in months.

 

[kaley]

Those posts are automated. I had similar posts from a game that I hadn't played in months.

Ok phew!

 

[PrincessButtercup]

If anyone happens to visit CL's FB page, I see he is NOT AL's brother as noted in early press articles. He refers to AL as his uncle.

There are two CLs, one is a nephew and one is his brother. The one that stopped by is the brother.

 

[Cherchri]

There are two CLs, one is a nephew and one is his brother. The one that stopped by is the brother.

Aaah so the former boxer now actor is the nephew and lives close to the home. Have never come across the other. Off to search.

 

[kaley]

I searched condos in mazatlan particularly the paradise bay condos. I know the pictures KL posted are FL and AL's condo but there is one of those units advertised for rent online. I noticed in the pictures of the living/ dining room that there are angels/ cherubs on a table and it reminded me of the kijiji pics of AL and KLs home. Coincidence? Could the condo they purchased be for rent until they were supposed to move there?

http://homehippo.com/m/prop/single-...-mazatlan-mazatlan/53af82426e54c952ad0028b4/#

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Aaah so the former boxer now actor is the nephew and lives close to the home. Have never come across the other. Off to search.

This family is soooooooooooo confusing .... we need a family tree with real names, lol ... so many initials!

 

[bakerlady]

Police are looking for anyone with information about the suspicious disappearance of Alvin Liknes, Kathryn Liknes and their grandson Nathan O'Brien. Cliff Liknes said the disappearance was a shock to the entire family. "I sure hope they find the little guy and my brother and his wife."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...l-mysteriously-vanished-after-an-estate-sale/

and the FB page surely does say uncle. Good observation PrincessButtercup.


But...not sure if it means much, no offense. I just get the feeling this is a close knit family.