Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #21

[sublimemumma]

According to an expert that testified at the Tim Bosma trial (Tim's body was cremated in an animal incinerator) getting DNA from ashes is impossible. Even bits of bone that were left could not give up DNA so unless there is a difference due to the amount of heat generated in an incinerator vs. a burn barrel I don't think they will be able to get DNA from the ashes.

Would they still be able to tell if it was Ashes from a human? Vs garbage?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I think it's speculation by the prosecution as well. The bloody drag marks might suggest that someone was still bleeding - don't know. It's certainly more gruesome to suggest that they were transported alive to the acreage, tortured, murdered, cut up and burned, but I think it's equally possible that they died at the Liknes home. Contents of hard drive are not evidence of torture, but it is odd that Kathryn's DNA is on meat hooks.

I don't think he had time to torture, but I speculate part of his obsession/fantasty/curiosity for this entire crime was what he would do to the bodies after death.

 

[otto]

.

Yes, I suppose I should have specified, 'difficulty one might have in obtaining meaningful work in their desired/trained field using their real identity when they have a criminal record which includes prison time.' - my post was in response to another's post which I believe was referencing the years after he got out of prison and lived at his parents' home.

Makes sense ... I had just read several posts in a row suggesting that he had never held a real job. I only wanted to point out that he did in fact have a real job. I think it was something to do with environmental testing. He was good at the job.

 

[otto]

Maybe I'm reading too much into things and sorry if this is graphic (isn't it all though with the details we've learned), but IIRC the description of the aerial photo say Alvin and Kathy were nude, prone face down in the field and Nathan curled up.

Does anyone else find the description odd? If they were temporarily disposed or put in the field, I doubt careful consideration was done as to their positioning. So I guess what I'm wondering is were they put there to slowly succumb to their injuries/bleed out (most children and even adults I would think put themselves in a fetal position when scared or suffering) or was Nathan placed in that position? If DG was reckless and in a hurry I doubt Nathan would be curled up is all…wouldn't they all just been 'dumped' there?

It's an unpleasant thought and question but one that's been bugging me.

They were on the ground near the barrels - probably shortly before he dismembered them. I don't think they were alive. The adults were probably dragged, but Nathan is small enough that he could have been carried and put down in a way that appeared to be curled up.

 

[otto]

Would they still be able to tell if it was Ashes from a human? Vs garbage?

I don't think so. There may have been at most bone fragments, but it depends on how long the barrel was burning. I suppose that will be presented in court in the next couple of weeks.

 

[otto]

I don't think he had time to torture, but I speculate part of his obsession/fantasty/curiosity for this entire crime was what he would do bodies after death.

I think so, especially with the purchase of autopsy tools. I have to wonder if the diaper point happened after death - one can only hope.

 

[deugirtni]

They weren't in the basement. They were on the second of four levels - the same level as the side door.

Police have referred to the side door being on the North and East side of the house, whereas I would put it on the South side. They seem to also refer to the main floor entrance (side door) as the basement. They need a common language or a diagram.

Yes, thank you, I merely assumed that JO would have accurately described the home in which she grew up. The actual layout of the house (until today, however even today, they have only shown layouts for 3 floors) has been speculation, IIRC.

Tweets from Day One:

https://twitter.com/ReidFiest:
Jennifer O'Brien says they watched a movie, and put her younger son to sleep. Kathy and Nathan slept on a pull out couch in basement. #yyc

Kevin Martin @KMartinCourts:
Photo 13 shows basement pull out bed where Jennifer O'Brien last saw her mother and her son, Nathan. #garland

Valerie Fortney @ValFortney:
Correction: Jennifer and baby Max went upstairs, grandma and Nathan were on pullout bed in basement. Went up with Max at 9. #garland

Jennifer is speaking lovingly of family, chuckles at conversation with mom about Nathan's hand-me-down pyjamas that night. #garland

Jennifer says she went to another bedroom with Max; Nathan and Kathy were in basement in pullout bed. Headed upstairs after. #garland

Today's Trial Tweets:
Kevin Martin ‏@KMartinCourts
Const. Trevor Matthes found no blood in basement of Liknes home. Jennifer O'Brien said that's where her son and mom were when she left.

ETA: This testimony from the first officer on the scene states that he cleared the furnace room - the furnace can be seen in this court exhibit photo of the level with the pull-out sofa where NO and KL were last seen alive - that level appears to also have stairs leading up to a higher level, and I can't see an exterior door anywhere.

Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie (from today's coverage)
Matthes tells defence he doesn't recall if this is what the basement looked like when he went down. Says he cleared furnace room #Garland

Photo found here: https://twitter.com/MetroLucie

 

[subwaydreaming]

Thank you, Otto!

The crown will present all the evidence that is necessary for a conviction. In order to secure a conviction and appropriate sentence, the full extent of the crime needs to be presented in court.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

They were on the ground near the barrels - probably shortly before he dismembered them. I don't think they were alive. The adults were probably dragged, but Nathan is small enough that he could have been carried and put down in a way that appeared to be curled up.

I don't think they were alive either, but still baffled about a curled up position.

And my thoughts exactly otto, if they were dragged by either arms/wrists on their stomachs it makes sense to their position, but curled up sounds more carefully placed to me. If I carried a child then hastily dropped them on the ground, I would think a more logical position would be to land on their back/stomach or legs maybe bent or extended. However, if carried with arms supporting under the knees and under the neck and on back and carefully put down and rolled over on the side a bit, to me the child be more curled up. I guess I wonder if DG was more careful with Nathan.

During such a monstrous act, why be gentle with the boy when handling him? Or maybe it was bad wording.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

From my count (based on KM's tweets), only 9 were challenged by Ross, 8 of whom were female. Twenty-three were excused by the judge for other reasons (gender not always known). And the prosecution challenged 6 (gender not always known). For those 'challenges', they don't have to have a reason (for the first 24 challenges), so it could be they just didn't like the look on their face, expression, body language, gender, makeup, clothing selection, type of work they do, could be *anything*. It does however, *seem* that the defence may believe males might give the accused a fairer shake than women. jmo

Yes, probably feel that men are typically "fact" based vs. "emotion based".

 

[Kamille]

I don't think he had time to torture, but I speculate part of his obsession/fantasty/curiosity for this entire crime was what he would do bodies after death.

It is concerning, however, that the company who took the aerial photos was flying over on July 1-2. It has not been established which day the photos showed the bodies of the victims on the farm. But at this point, I would imagine it would have had to have been at least 24 hours since the victims were taken to the farm before they showed up on those photos. So what transpired in those 24 hours, starting in the early morning hours of June 30th when DG's father was doped up on painkillers and his wife was out for most of the day at a memorial, then returned home "beat" and had a glass of wine before likely retiring to bed herself? This was also the day that DG was supposed to go to the psychiatrist, lied to his parents and said that he did, but did not. So what was he doing in the "outbuildings" all day? And again probably all night after his parents went to sleep? Why were the bodies lying prone and out in the open on either July 1st or July 2nd or perhaps both days? Long after the victims had been removed from their home. Were they out there the entire time? Were they deceased but hidden in an outbuilding for a while? Alive but restrained in an out building for a while? I shudder at the possibilities.

MOO

 

[deugirtni]

I guess this is the first clue of what DG's defense is going to be? Perhaps he is suggesting that either AL or KL must have committed a double murder/suicide at his farm? :waitasec:

MOO

I think it was also alluded to on DayOne (imo), and I posted about it at the time. Both JO and AL2 were questioned on their parents' mental health status. Hard to imagine that could be his defence though, because why take it to HIS house.. ??...

Bill Graveland @BillGraveland:

The couple's condo in Mexico is being rented now. Liknes said his father did not have any kind of mental illness or health issues.

Photo is of Nathan, her mom and her one year son Max. O'Brien says she had no reason to worry about her parents mental health.

 

[Kamille]

I don't think so. There may have been at most bone fragments, but it depends on how long the barrel was burning. I suppose that will be presented in court in the next couple of weeks.

I thought I remembered from the tweets today that there was a burn barrel and a burn pile. They didn't return to search the burn pile for 9 months. And I believe very small bone fragments were also found among the ashes in the burn pile? From what we learned in the Bosma trial, bones do not burn right down, even in an incinerator, and there should have been larger fragments unless they were destroyed or disposed of in some way. I also thought I read that the burn barrel was still smouldering when LE first showed up to search the farm. Which day was that?

 

[Slebby]

I think I'm missing something here.

I don't understand why LE went back to the farm 9 months later to retrieve ashes. Why didn't they take them in the beginning?

OK, here's a theory. The first burn barrel and ashes taken into evidence may have contained minimal traces, bits of bone from the victims. As someone mentioned, the Gs burned all their garbage, so this would include bones from discarded food waste - chicken bones etc. LE might be very sure there are bits of human bone in the ashes. But the defence might cast doubt about the difference between human bone fragments and those from dinner trash. By collecting the Gs burn barrel ashes many months later, they could compare the bits of bone fragment and show that the debris from the burn barrel first taken into evidence is different from that from many months later.

Just a thought.


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[Kamille]

Christie Blatchford uses today's column to lament about court delays....

Christie Blatchford: Technology is the bane of Canadian courts and the Douglas Garland murder trial is no different

Almost without fail, I say as one who has covered criminal trials in most parts of the country, the Canadian courts treat even familiar technology like a surprise and not particularly welcome intruder.

It’s as though every criminal trial was the first: What, you say the witness can’t be heard? What is this thing called a drop-down screen? What is this PowerPoint?

Across Canada, cases take too long to get to trial – as the Supreme Court of Canada noted in a recent decision which overhauled the law on such delay — and trials themselves often take too long.

It is true that in some provinces, there aren’t enough Crown attorneys, and that there’s a national shortage of higher-court judges.

But it’s just as true that judges and lawyers are noticeably careless with the public’s time, that they enjoy the luxury of starting at 10 a.m. when a good part of the working world is hard at it an hour or two before, and that they cannot seem to function with less than a 90-minute lunch.

But she also gave a little insight into how DG is actively engaging in "his trial". I'm sure he's enjoying every minute of it. :notgood:

The 56-year-old Garland is pleading not guilty to three counts of first-degree murder. He was on Wednesday as he always is in the prisoner’s box – alert, attentive and highly engaged. Often, he almost disappears from view as he bends over so deeply, either furiously writing or reading documents.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...-douglas-garland-murder-trial-is-no-different

 

[KMouse]

I don't think so. There may have been at most bone fragments, but it depends on how long the barrel was burning. I suppose that will be presented in court in the next couple of weeks.

Plus the possible use of an accelerant which may make it burn hotter.

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[LoisLane]

We still should be hearing about the search at that animal incinerator place by the Ford dealer.

 

[Cherchri]

I think I'm missing something here.

I don't understand why LE went back to the farm 9 months later to retrieve ashes. Why didn't they take them in the beginning?

What immediately comes to mind for me is initially they retrieved fragments - all of which proved to belong to 2 victims. Thus returned to see if they could find fragments for the 3rd victim.

 

[deugirtni]

From Megan @ CBC (yesterday )


Doreen #Garland says during Amber alert, her daughter Patti asked to meet her at Nose Creek park, showed her pic of truck

(She also does not believe Allen is common law with Patti anymore)

My comment - I find it telling that Patti requested her mother meet her at a park to confront her with her fears about her brother and the truck

Just curious, where did you find this part, I missed that one: (She also does not believe Allen is common law with Patti anymore)

 

[deugirtni]

Thinking back to the spring search of the Garland acreage there was coverage and photo's of investigators going through the ground on their hands and knees with a fine tooth comb. There were also markers on the lawn close to the house and I think we discussed it being related to the septic system and possibly they had an issue and maybe matter was appearing or something like that... technical stuff I would never understand.

Here is CTV coverage.. I think the Sun had pics of AL and his son at the scene as well during the spring search. It all seemed odd. Personally, I think it has to do with DNA of other victims.
http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/evidence-collection-continues-at-garland-acreage-1.2304408

"Seeking further evidence for Douglas Garland’s upcoming trial, Calgary police once again carted items out of buildings on the accused killer’s family property and lined up shoulder-to-shoulder to sweep the grounds."
http://www.airdrieecho.com/2015/03/31/police-search-for-more-clues-on-liknes-property

I think this is the photo that we suspected showed AL and RO at the property at the time, and also the photo with markers on the lawn close to the house. Photos are from a newscast from Global News Calgary on March 31, 2015. Not sure if still available online.