CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #9

[Snoopster]

Disgusting that 9 years is coming up. Interesting how no similar crimes have been committed in the area since that time.

This would almost make you think it was someone she was close to, no?

Back to the original thesis.

 

[Sillybilly]

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[ShaunLindsay]

Disgusting that 9 years is coming up. Interesting how no similar crimes have been committed in the area since that time.

I wouldn't say that is true.
There have been some similar crimes, and if you factor in a sexual component, there has been a shocking amount of sexual assaults documented on the mountain.
If you are of the drifter theory, there is no reason for similar crimes to be local; it could have been an act between points of travel.
You could believe that they HAD the right person, and that such a close call was enough for them to stop or modify.
There is always the potential that the criminal had been caught on an unrelated matter and has not been on the streets.
If you are in the revenge/lover/ money camp, the situation had an end, and there was no reason for similar acts.
Being a local since 1995 ish, there have been many, many shocking crimes of this nature. The difference with this one is the dynamic of the victim. She speaks to the wonder of mystery in all of us. Compounded with it being unsolved, it makes it so compelling.
So many times I have read and reread all of the info and tried to nail down my "one theory", but I can never do it. This case alone single-handedly makes me want to take a P.I. course and get my license just to have a chance to see the police files, if they even allow that kind of thing.

 

[dotr]

I wouldn't say that is true.
There have been some similar crimes, and if you factor in a sexual component, there has been a shocking amount of sexual assaults documented on the mountain.
If you are of the drifter theory, there is no reason for similar crimes to be local; it could have been an act between points of travel.
You could believe that they HAD the right person, and that such a close call was enough for them to stop or modify.
There is always the potential that the criminal had been caught on an unrelated matter and has not been on the streets.
If you are in the revenge/lover/ money camp, the situation had an end, and there was no reason for similar acts.
Being a local since 1995 ish, there have been many, many shocking crimes of this nature. The difference with this one is the dynamic of the victim. She speaks to the wonder of mystery in all of us. Compounded with it being unsolved, it makes it so compelling.
So many times I have read and reread all of the info and tried to nail down my "one theory", but I can never do it. This case alone single-handedly makes me want to take a P.I. course and get my license just to have a chance to see the police files, if they even allow that kind of thing.

Welcome to Ws ShaunLindsay!
Good post, it seems that a shocking number of crimes involving females and a "sexual component" is not only plaguing Hamilton, but seems to be ubiquitous in Toronto too, imo, speculation.

 

[Snoopster]

I wouldn't say that is true.
There have been some similar crimes, and if you factor in a sexual component, there has been a shocking amount of sexual assaults documented on the mountain.
If you are of the drifter theory, there is no reason for similar crimes to be local; it could have been an act between points of travel.
You could believe that they HAD the right person, and that such a close call was enough for them to stop or modify.
There is always the potential that the criminal had been caught on an unrelated matter and has not been on the streets.
If you are in the revenge/lover/ money camp, the situation had an end, and there was no reason for similar acts.
Being a local since 1995 ish, there have been many, many shocking crimes of this nature. The difference with this one is the dynamic of the victim. She speaks to the wonder of mystery in all of us. Compounded with it being unsolved, it makes it so compelling.
So many times I have read and reread all of the info and tried to nail down my "one theory", but I can never do it. This case alone single-handedly makes me want to take a P.I. course and get my license just to have a chance to see the police files, if they even allow that kind of thing.

BBM.

I would love to hear more about the 'shocking amount of sexual assaults', particularly of older women. Do you have cases you can point out to us? If so, we can work on commonalities to help move this case further.

P.S. Thanks for joining us!

 

[ShaunLindsay]

Sexual assaults were so prevalent in the early 2000s that the Hamilton Police created Project Advocate to try and connect some of the dots. Detective Hrab was one of the key members of that task force, and as you know went on to the Gleave case.
It is hard to point to any individual cases to connect dots. As a local you see it in the news and on the net every day. As well, if you subscribe to the drifter theory, you may have to search Detroit, Toronto, heck, even B.C.

Hamilton is a half hour away from the Gleave site, so it isn't necessarily fair to link it to Hamilton or anywhere other than the Brantford area really, without harder proof.

 

[deugirtni]

It wasn't ever said that AG had been raped. or sexually assaulted, or sexually brutalized. Reports from police said there was a 'sexual component'. When I read all of the articles on this case, I get the impression that the 'sexual component' was more related to when they speak of the perp having 'taken' something 'of' her. Police wasted months believing it was the homeless man, and thereby possibly letting all kinds of other evidence/testimony/memories become obscure. I believe that once they realized they had zero evidence of the homeless man's involvement (some six months later?), they now lean more towards the sexual part of it being staged.

He spoke of a vicious stabbing but did not talk about other weapons — at least one other had been used — or the nature of the “sexual component” (it had included a perverse act that went beyond a conventional assault; the killer had taken something from the victim as though making off with a souvenir.)
Opinion | Who is Audrey Gleave
---
Police had said Gleave was sexually assaulted — a detective told reporters there was a "sexual component" to the crime. Emergency response workers first on the scene believed that was true. Phil Kinsman said Gleave's stretchy pants were torn when he found her.

But Abrams says there is no hard evidence Gleave was sexually assaulted.

How could interpretations be so different?

One reason is that the killer may have staged the crime scene. At least one Hamilton detective who worked the case in the past believed the killer tried to lead them down the wrong path.

In an article titled "The Staged Crime Scene," a New York City homicide investigator wrote that the most common type of homicide staging is trying to make the death appear accidental or a suicide, and the second most common is "when the perpetrator attempts to redirect the investigation by making the crime appear to be a sex-related homicide."
Who killed Audrey Gleave?
---
There is every reason to believe that this murder was carried out by someone who knew Gleave and her routines.
Audrey Gleave

 

[deugirtni]

....
Hamilton is a half hour away from the Gleave site, so it isn't necessarily fair to link it to Hamilton or anywhere other than the Brantford area really, without harder proof.

RSBM
It may be 30km between Gleave's house and the downtown Hamilton police station, but it is not half an hour from 'Hamilton', as AG's Lynden address is in Hamilton. Her home seems to be pretty much on the border of Lynden (which was in Flamborough before amalgamating with Hamilton)/Brantford.
Lynden, Ontario - Wikipedia

 

[deugirtni]

For me, it is very interesting that AG was found wearing her coat. In her garage. A caller would likely come to a door, presumably the front door, and if AG was inclined to answer door-knocks from unknown callers, she presumably wouldn't have been wearing her coat.

Where would an intruder break in, if the intent was to sexually assault AG and/or kill her? Would an intruder enter through a window? Pick the lock or break down a door? Or press the code for the garage door and happen to get lucky with the right code to make it open?

Why would AG have put on her coat if a stranger had broken into her garage? Considering how paranoid she seemed to be about her personal privacy, wouldn't she have just called police if she heard someone unknown, uninvited, and unscheduled in her garage? Even if not, would she have put on her coat and locked up her dogs before being bold enough to check it out on her own? All I know is that if it were me in her shoes, I would've been scared to death if I heard someone in my garage, and would've called 911 and perhaps a neighbour. And I would've utilized my apparently-viciously-protective dogs to hopefully protect me, rather than locking them up.
---
When he visited, Phil would push the number code on the keypad outside the automatic garage door, meet her in the garage, then chat either inside or out. That was the routine.
....
On the morning of Dec. 30, Phil said, he drove with his wife, Alex, from their apartment in west Hamilton to Quatrefoil, the restaurant where she worked. After dropping her off, he headed to Audrey's.

He turned his silver 2002 Hyundai Accent off Indian Trail into the driveway, past the small pond on the right and larger one on the left, and parked on the far side as he always did. He was bringing her some of her favourite cake. It was about 11 a.m.

He did not go to Audrey's front door. He always entered through the garage. He walked to the twin automatic garage doors outside.

He punched in the code on the keypad. The door rose. The Camaro was parked in its usual spot, both its doors closed.

That's when he saw her, he said, on the garage floor, lying on her back.

Had Audrey slipped and fallen on some ice, he wondered? Up close, he saw that was not the case.

She wore her winter coat. Her comfortable stretch pants were ripped.

Opinion | Audrey’s story continues

 

[deugirtni]

I really hope Jon Wells' editors allow him the space to do a follow-up story on the anniversary date of AG's death this year.

 

[ShaunLindsay]

For me, it is very interesting that AG was found wearing her coat. In her garage. A caller would likely come to a door, presumably the front door, and if AG was inclined to answer door-knocks from unknown callers, she presumably wouldn't have been wearing her coat.

Where would an intruder break in, if the intent was to sexually assault AG and/or kill her? Would an intruder enter through a window? Pick the lock or break down a door? Or press the code for the garage door and happen to get lucky with the right code to make it open?

Why would AG have put on her coat if a stranger had broken into her garage? Considering how paranoid she seemed to be about her personal privacy, wouldn't she have just called police if she heard someone unknown, uninvited, and unscheduled in her garage? Even if not, would she have put on her coat and locked up her dogs before being bold enough to check it out on her own? All I know is that if it were me in her shoes, I would've been scared to death if I heard someone in my garage, and would've called 911 and perhaps a neighbour. And I would've utilized my apparently-viciously-protective dogs to hopefully protect me, rather than locking them up.
---
When he visited, Phil would push the number code on the keypad outside the automatic garage door, meet her in the garage, then chat either inside or out. That was the routine.
....
On the morning of Dec. 30, Phil said, he drove with his wife, Alex, from their apartment in west Hamilton to Quatrefoil, the restaurant where she worked. After dropping her off, he headed to Audrey's.

He turned his silver 2002 Hyundai Accent off Indian Trail into the driveway, past the small pond on the right and larger one on the left, and parked on the far side as he always did. He was bringing her some of her favourite cake. It was about 11 a.m.

He did not go to Audrey's front door. He always entered through the garage. He walked to the twin automatic garage doors outside.

He punched in the code on the keypad. The door rose. The Camaro was parked in its usual spot, both its doors closed.

That's when he saw her, he said, on the garage floor, lying on her back.

Had Audrey slipped and fallen on some ice, he wondered? Up close, he saw that was not the case.

She wore her winter coat. Her comfortable stretch pants were ripped.

Opinion | Audrey’s story continues

The coat could also be representative of being attacked shortly after returning home from somewhere. She could have arrived home in her car and had someone follow her in/ have been in and waiting for her/ had returned home with her. She may have been heading into the house, not leaving it.
I always wondered if the intent of the intruder to enter the house was thwarted by the dogs barking wildly somewhere inside.

 

[deugirtni]

I wonder why no neighbours reported hearing the dogs going nuts inside the house for however many days until AG's body was found. Surely in that quiet rural setting, even though inside the house, they would've been heard. Maybe not by people inside their own homes, but while out walking their dogs, or letting their dogs out, or fetching their mail, or getting into their vehicles, etc.

 

[Snoopster]

Coming up on 9 years. I had actually thought that this case was one of the 'solvable' ones. <sigh>
Still thinking of you Audrey. You were different. You forged your own path. I'm guessing that you wouldn't have believed that there was a group of random people still cheering for you. We will find your killer! Your killer cannot ever relax!

P.S. I believe her murderer is checking out this thread.

 

[dotr]

Nov 15 2019 rbbm.
by Amy Kouniakis
UNSOLVED: Retired Hamilton schoolteacher found brutally murdered
"Her life, Hamilton police say, was one of strict routine and was spent rather reclusively.

One frigid December morning in 2010 a friend who had plans with Gleave that day went to check on her and arrived at her home only to stumble across a gruesome scene: Gleave was on the ground in her garage apparently covered in blood and lifeless.

The friend immediately called 911 and police and EMS/Fire responded but Gleave had obviously been deceased for some time, police say.

Gleaves suffered stab wounds and other injuries. Police officers, at the time, also suggested that there was a “sexual component” to her death.

At the time, responding officers are reported to have said that it was one of the most ‘savage’ crime scenes they’d come across.

Gleave was 74 years old at the time of her murder.

Police say they can not discern a motive for Gleave’s murder and they say there is every reason to believe that her murder was carried out by someone who knew her and her routines."
"Anyone with information about this homicide is asked to contact S/Sgt Dave Oleniuk of the Major Crime Unit at 905-546-3829."

 

[dotr]

The Dec 2 2004 murder of Thelma Clapham in Hamilton, a female might be involved in some way.
CANADA - Murdered - Thelma Clapham 2004

 

[truecrime_realtime_pod]

AG apparently emailed a member of her coffee group.

From the timeline found here:

Dec 27 2010 A member of Audrey's coffee group, EM, a science teacher at Westdale, says Audrey emailed someone in the group that she would not be attending the coffee get-together scheduled for Wednesday, Dec 29

Yes I think my question was do we know for a fact that Audrey sent that or if someone else sent it from her computer after killing her. Because the LE would not answer that question specifically when I asked.

 

[Catmommy]

Yes I think my question was do we know for a fact that Audrey sent that or if someone else sent it from her computer after killing her. Because the LE would not answer that question specifically when I asked.

That could be one of those things they hold back because it's part of the investigation. They know but they don't want the killer to know that they know, perhaps?

 

[truecrime_realtime_pod]

That could be one of those things they hold back because it's part of the investigation. They know but they don't want the killer to know that they know, perhaps?

Yes exactly it’s a very particular hold back.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes I think my question was do we know for a fact that Audrey sent that or if someone else sent it from her computer after killing her. Because the LE would not answer that question specifically when I asked.

That could be one of those things they hold back because it's part of the investigation. They know but they don't want the killer to know that they know, perhaps?

Yes exactly it’s a very particular hold back.

I think the question was unanswered because it is one of those things that is currently impossible for police to definitively know the answer to. They can be certain the email was sent from AG's computer, and from AG's house, and using AG's internet, and at which time it was sent,.. but how could they possibly know for sure whether or not AG typed and sent the email? (That is assuming they even bothered to take the computer in for forensic examination.) If they found another person's prints on her keyboard, they might surmise it may have been sent by someone else, or the keyboard may have been wiped of all prints, which may lead them to surmise it may have been sent by someone else, or the keyboard may only have AG's prints, which may lead them to believe AG wrote and sent it herself. A perp could possibly have worn surgical gloves which may leave no suspect prints while leaving AG's prints somewhat intact?

 

[deugirtni]

Police quickly narrowed their focus to one certain perp, which may have had a hand in what police decided to follow up on, or not (such as: there was a report from a neighbour who had called police with some kind of info/tip, and it had never been followed up on by police) - they thought they had their man, all locked up tight. It wasn't until something like six months later that results came back to show that police had no evidence at all on this man, and the search for a perp recommenced - way too late. I find it really disturbing that by then the house had long ago been sold, the estate all wrapped up, AG's possessions disposed of, memories blurred, etc. It seems the home was auctioned off and the estate settled in record time. Really too late to go back and revisit everything from square one.

from article dated February 8, 2011 - not even six weeks after AG's murder:

“It is not that I believe police owe us anything,” said concerned neighbour Tony Ascroft, but he is questioning how the case has been investigated.

On the day Gleave’s body was found, he said, an officer knocked on his door and asked him a couple of questions. But Ascroft said the conversation was vague and he was never given a specific timeline to recall what he might have seen.

Since that day, he has called one of the detectives to share new information, but has never had a call back, he said.

“Nobody’s gone door-to-door, they don’t even know whose living with me,” Ascroft said. “If they talked to people, they might get much more information.”

Ascroft and neighbour Cam Ferguson also question why they’ve never seen neighbouring properties in the densely forested area searched.

In the last month, Gleave’s Indian Trail house has been sold in an estate sale. Neighbour say the lights are on in the home all the time now.

It’s been six weeks Audrey Gleave’s murder and neighbours are anxious