Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[otto]

http://houssmax.ca/Virtualtour/mobile/tourId/h3925515/type/unbrand

The real estate listings have been removed but I still see this ....can anyone see any cameras?

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"Toronto cops are treating the deaths as “suspicious,” but said there were no signs of forced entry and no one else was found in the house. Officers are not canvassing widely for suspects or warning residents of danger supporting the possibility of a murder-suicide.

No suicide note was found in the early stages of the investigation, but a search of the massive house, including reviews of the home’s video surveillance system, was just beginning."

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...n/news-story/561a6222013c8406dac76c7f4484b7ad

 

[Tighthead]

Under Canadian law, what remedy would the family possibly pursue, legally?

 

[otto]

I just had the same thought/question about the real estate agent. From the floor plans, the indoor pool is the farthest room from the center of the house or any exterior doors. If it is normal for the real estate agent to let themselves in, it would IMOO not be the first place I would think they would look, if not most likely the last.

I wonder if they A) were getting the house ready for a showing and going room to room to make sure everything was set up or B) saw some type of disturbance leading them to look for the home owners out of concern for their safety.

Just thoughts going through my head because it did seem odd

A couple of people have mentioned floor plans - could you please share them? I'm curious about the house layout.
Thanks

 

[Inthedetails]

Okay, lets call it physical cause of death, or immediate cause of death, whatever you like. Just don't jump to the conclusion that 'ligature neck compression' excludes hanging.

Cause of Death and Manner of Death have specific definitions. I know what you're trying to say, but when using specific terms, we need to use them correctly.

By the way, I learned the difference between COD and MOD right here from fellow WSers.

jmo

 

[kemo]

From what I can tell, there is little doubt Honey was a homicide victim. This was established pretty early in the investigation. That would certainly warrant a homicide investigation even if Sherman’s death appeared to be a suicide.

Staging a homicide to appear as a suicide appears to be pretty difficult but not impossible. The victim would have to be strangled with a very similar rope on the same part of the neck as the rope used in the staged hanging. Otherwise there would be two separate injuries. Hanging usually involves the rope being directly under the chin. LE is usually tipped of that a hanging is staged by other injuries that occurred during a struggle or by evidence of drugging from the toxicology screen. Someone who is stronger and able to take the victim by surprise could pull it off but even a small or elderly person would probably be able to put up enough struggle to insure some injuries. The only way I can see this as a double homicide staged to look like at least one suicide would be if the perp were able to get the jump on Barry cleanly before he could resist.


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[otto]

Under Canadian law, what remedy would the family possibly pursue, legally?

I can't think of any legal recourse anyone has if they disagree with how police do their jobs. The family can complain, and a judge may rule for a review of police procedures, but that typically would not open the door for a lawsuit. Instead, it provides guidelines for doing better in the future.

 

[LaborDayRN]

"Toronto cops are treating the deaths as “suspicious,” but said there were no signs of forced entry and no one else was found in the house. Officers are not canvassing widely for suspects or warning residents of danger supporting the possibility of a murder-suicide.

No suicide note was found in the early stages of the investigation, but a search of the massive house, including reviews of the home’s video surveillance system, was just beginning."

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...n/news-story/561a6222013c8406dac76c7f4484b7ad

I wonder if there is no video surveillance in the basement and someone else was aware of that. I find it unlikely though. It seems if video surveillance was installed, it would include the entire property.

 

[otto]

I wonder if there is no video surveillance in the basement and someone else was aware of that. I find it unlikely though. It seems if video surveillance was installed, it would include the entire property.

I'm guessing that one place that would have surveillance is the pool, as that is one area that can result in lawsuits - such as someone drowning the pool.

If this is a murder-suicide, I suspect that Barry would have disabled the cameras before staging the hangings.

This must have happened on Wednesday evening, as they were first noticed missing from scheduled appointments on Thursday.

 

[Cora]

Okay, lets call it physical cause of death, or immediate cause of death, whatever you like. Just don't jump to the conclusion that 'ligature neck compression' excludes hanging.

Can COD "ligature neck compression" be caused by MOD hanging?

That's the big question in my mind. FWIW.

And I'm still learning the terminology...[emoji4]


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[Satchie]

Under Canadian law, what remedy would the family possibly pursue, legally?

They can sue for damages, just like anywhere. Here's a suit where Toronto police are accused of failing to declare a case a homicide. http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...nto-police-over-negligent-death-investigation

 

[TTF14]

From what I can tell, there is little doubt Honey was a homicide victim. This was established pretty early in the investigation. That would certainly warrant a homicide investigation even if Sherman’s death appeared to be a suicide.

Staging a homicide to appear as a suicide appears to be pretty difficult but not impossible. The victim would have to be strangled with a very similar rope on the same part of the neck as the rope used in the staged hanging. Otherwise there would be two separate injuries. Hanging usually involves the rope being directly under the chin. LE is usually tipped of that a hanging is staged by other injuries that occurred during a struggle or by evidence of drugging from the toxicology screen. Someone who is stronger and able to take the victim by surprise could pull it off but even a small or elderly person would probably be able to put up enough struggle to insure some injuries. The only way I can see this as a double homicide staged to look like at least one suicide would be if the perp were able to get the jump on Barry cleanly before he could resist.


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BBM. Or more than one perp.

 

[LaborDayRN]

That's not correct. Manner of death has a specific definition. The possible manners of death are:
Natural
Accident
Suicide
Homicide
Undetermined

That list of five possibilities are the the only things indicated by Manner of Death.

jmo

Bringing Inthedetails post forward to clarify MOD = Manner of Death.

 

[liz b.]

Some things which make me wonder about murder/suicide : he was very cognizant of pharmaceuticals.That might have been an easier way ? The site chosen seems a bit strange. Were they both clothed ?

 

[human]

Very true. I know a debutante who wore her debutante dress as her wedding dress to save money despite her family having more than sufficient funds for a brand new, high end dress.

The man who owned and had inherited the largest, most well-know mountain in our area(worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions) drove a beat up 20yo vehicle and helped with many, if not most, of the projects completed on the mountain during his lifetime despite being one of the wealthiest people in this region of the state.

I know I read that Barry used to drive an older vehicle as well.


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Rich people have no need to impress anyone . The truly rich, that is.

I cannot comprehend why they would have a rope in that house. I can see no reason for a rope.

If Honey was strangled first with a rope, that does not indicate a domestic violence scene that got out of hand. To me, that implies she was premeditatively murdered.

Why would a 75 year old man use such a method that would take strength? Why not use a gun? Easy, quick.

He would have to haul her dead weight to the pool area and string her up. Lots of exertion with at least 130 or so pounds it looks like.

How tall were they?

I am simply wondering how it was accomplished and why use such a difficult method. Unless he was working with weights and he may have been, the elderly lose a lot of muscle tone

 

[otto]

They can sue for damages, just like anywhere. Here's a suit where Toronto police are accused of failing to declare a case a homicide. http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...nto-police-over-negligent-death-investigation

Pursuing a financial benefit from police for not doing their jobs properly does not mean they will actually get anywhere in the courts.

 

[Abundance]

http://houssmax.ca/vtour/h3925515/50-Old-Colony-Road-North-York


Realtors would have the code for the alarm system.

 

[Twinkle]

A couple of people have mentioned floor plans - could you please share them? I'm curious about the house layout.
Thanks

http://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

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[Inthedetails]

Can COD "ligature neck compression" be caused by MOD hanging?

That's the big question in my mind. FWIW.

And I'm still learning the terminology...[emoji4]


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It's possible the hanging is what strangled the victims, but the Manner of Death can only be natural, accident, murder, suicide, or undetermined.

I think the word "manner" throws people off. Perhaps think of MOD as what type of death it is. Is it murder? Is it suicide? Is it an accident or natural? That's what MOD addresses.

Cause of Death is what specifically ended the person's life...was it heart failure, neck compression, blunt force trauma, drowning?

jmo

 

[otto]

Rich people have no need to impress anyone . The truly rich, that is.

I cannot comprehend why they would have a rope in that house. I can see no reason for a rope.

If Honey was strangled first with a rope, that does not indicate a domestic violence scene that got out of hand. To me, that implies she was premeditatively murdered.

Why would a 75 year old man use such a method that would take strength? Why not use a gun? Easy, quick.

He would have to haul her dead weight to the pool area and string her up. Lots of exertion with at least 130 or so pounds it looks like.

How tall were they?

I am simply wondering how it was accomplished and why use such a difficult method. Unless he was working with weights and he may have been, the elderly lose a lot of muscle tone

Doesn't everyone have some rope somewhere in the house? Blinds have a rope. I don't think it's unusual to have some rope in the garage, for the garden, or near the pool for whatever reason.

Guns make a mess of bodies and they don't look good in the casket. Strangulation is something that is spur of the moment, so the murder could have been crime of passion. Staging the bodies may have taken some thought. Clearly, murder or suicide, they were meant to be found together and to have died in the same way.

 

[human]

Extension cord from the garage. Six car underground parking garage, probably on the same level as the indoor pool.

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Do you think an extension cord, and that would be the one with the GFI plug which is thick, can be tied around someone’s neck tight enough to strangle?

I suppose he could have put it around her neck, but it does not seem like one could get it tight enough to be around the neck so that one could not struggle against it.

If she was working out and five years younger, I imagine she had some strength.