Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[deugirtni]

Armchair detectives. Your imaginations run amok.

Barry had wills, Honey didn't. The key point here is that the family wants to use Barry's will. It leaves everything to them, divided equally. However, If there is evidence to show that Barry died first, Everything would go to Honey, and then it would be up to the courts to decide who gets what and when. This opens the door up to anyone who feels they might have a claim to part of the estate.

In Donovan's article it states that Barry left everything to Honey. Are you saying this is wrong then? And it says that Honey was in fact splitting everything between their kids. This wrong too? This seems to be the opposite of what you have posted. Also, you are contradicting yourself because you are first saying the fam wants to use Barry's will because "it leaves everything to them"... but then you say "if there is evidence to show that Barry died first, everything would go to Honey, and then it would be up to the courts to decide who gets what and when." So which is it? And what would be wrong with using Honey's will, since it is reported to say that she leaves everything to their 4 children? Who is talking out of their arse here again? <confused>

"Sources have told the Star that Barry’s will left everything to Honey if he died first; if she predeceased him, it divided the estimated $5-billion estate and control of Apotex between their four children, aged 28 to 43."

 

[andreww]

Finally, I get the feeling from reading the Toronto Star article, discussing all the sealed documents and secrecy surrounding this case. the TPS have a very credible suspect, and are just collecting more evidence prior to laying charges. I may be naive on this belief, but nobody in law enforcement is asking for help which, to me is most curious.

I guess you missed the part about one full time officer working the case?

 

[andreww]

In Donovan's article it states that Barry left everything to Honey. Are you saying this is wrong then? And it says that Honey was in fact splitting everything between their kids. This wrong too? This seems to be the opposite of what you have posted. Also, you are contradicting yourself because you are first saying the fam wants to use Barry's will because "it leaves everything to them"... but then you say "if there is evidence to show that Barry died first, everything would go to Honey, and then it would be up to the courts to decide who gets what and when." So which is it? And what would be wrong with using Honey's will, since it is reported to say that she leaves everything to their 4 children? Who is talking out of their arse here again? <confused>

"Sources have told the Star that Barry’s will left everything to Honey if he died first; if she predeceased him, it divided the estimated $5-billion estate and control of Apotex between their four children, aged 28 to 43."

Read it again. If Barry had died, everything would go to Honey. But if Barry died and Honey was already dead, everything goes to the children. If they were to show that Barry died first, then the estate would go to Honey, and as she has no will, it would go to the courts.

 

[MistyWaters]

One of the comments in the Judge’s ruling sealing the Sherman Estate files last August, I’ve bolded below but the italicization of the word “full” is from the actual transcript. It seems commonly assumed, even by Donovan’s recent article, that the four Sherman children are the sole beneficiaries. But it’s also plausible it’s other beneficiaries who have asked the Court that their names and addresses be undisclosed.

[33] I am persuaded by the respondents’ reasoning when it comes to weighing of the interests that are at stake. Ordering confidentiality over the estate files removes little from the public domain that is not already “out there”. However, the additional details that are not already out there relate to matters where there is no reason to believe that there is a legitimate public interest. The full circle of persons connected to this tragedy – their names and addresses and their precise relationship to the deceased – are not generally known to the public. The specific security and privacy concerns expressed by the respondents are reasonable and carry a greater weight in the circumstances of this case than the more general if presumptively weighty concerns favouring disclosure advanced by the applicants.
CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)

 

[MistyWaters]

Read it again. If Barry had died, everything would go to Honey. But if Barry died and Honey was already dead, everything goes to the children. If they were to show that Barry died first, then the estate would go to Honey, and as she has no will, it would go to the courts.

If Honey had no Will ( intestate), husband is deceased, then her estate is passed on to her children according to Ontario legistion.

Inheriting Property - Ministry of the Attorney General
“If there is no spouse, the deceased person's children will inherit the estate. If any of them have died, that child's descendants (e.g. the deceased person's grandchildren) will inherit their share.”

 

[MistyWaters]

Well what other evidence from the police investigation could possibly be in the sealed document then?

Highly likely the completed autopsy report that supporting the facts surrounding their deaths was included in the Estate documents reviewed by the Judge, to prove both were victims of a violent murder.

CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)
Background facts
[4] On December 15, 2017, Mr. Barry Sherman and Mrs. Honey Sherman were found brutally murdered in their Toronto home. The celebrity and wealth of the victims and the circumstances of their death generated intense publicity. Unfounded rumours swirled and were given a wide audience. On January 26, 2018, Toronto Police Service put an end to many of the rumours when they announced that they were investigating the deaths of both spouses as a targeted double homicide.

 

[andreww]

Highly likely the completed autopsy report that supporting the facts surrounding their deaths was included in the Estate documents reviewed by the Judge, to prove both were victims of a violent murder.

CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)
Background facts
[4] On December 15, 2017, Mr. Barry Sherman and Mrs. Honey Sherman were found brutally murdered in their Toronto home. The celebrity and wealth of the victims and the circumstances of their death generated intense publicity. Unfounded rumours swirled and were given a wide audience. On January 26, 2018, Toronto Police Service put an end to many of the rumours when they announced that they were investigating the deaths of both spouses as a targeted double homicide.

Why do you say that is "highly likely"? I'd say it's highly unlikely.

 

[andreww]

If Honey had no Will ( intestate), husband is deceased, then her estate is passed on to her children according to Ontario legistion.

Inheriting Property -

If Honey had no Will ( intestate), husband is deceased, then her estate is passed on to her children according to Ontario legistion.

[URL='https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/pgt/heirclaim.php']Inheriting Property - Ministry of the Attorney General

“If there is no spouse, the deceased person's children will inherit the estate. If any of them have died, that child's descendants (e.g. the deceased person's grandchildren) will inherit their share.”

of the Attorney General[/URL]
“If there is no spouse, the deceased person's children will inherit the estate. If any of them have died, that child's descendants (e.g. the deceased person's grandchildren) will inherit their share.”

You only posted part of that document

When a person dies without a valid will, called "intestate", Ontario's Succession Law Reform Act sets out how the estate is distributed.

According to the Act, unless someone who is financially dependent on the deceased person makes a claim, the first $200,000 is given to the deceased person's spouse if he or she has decided to claim his/her entitlement. The other possibility is to claim half of the net family property. A lawyer can help determine which is the better choice.

Anything over $200,000 is shared between the spouse and the descendants (e.g. children, grandchildren) according to specific rules.

If there is no spouse, the deceased person's children will inherit the estate. If any of them have died, that child's descendants (e.g. the deceased person's grandchildren) will inherit their share.

If Honey died first, everything is divided evenly amongst the four children. If Barry died first, then it appears, according to the link you provided, to be divided a lot more broadly. We already know that at least one person has come forward claiming Honey promised them a cut, and who knows how many grand children there are.

More likely that the family would prefer to use Barry's will simply to expedite the process. Going through the courts could tie up the estate for years.

 

[andreww]

One of the comments in the Judge’s ruling sealing the Sherman Estate files last August, I’ve bolded below but the italicization of the word “full” is from the actual transcript. It seems commonly assumed, even by Donovan’s recent article, that the four Sherman children are the sole beneficiaries. But it’s also plausible it’s other beneficiaries who have asked the Court that their names and addresses be undisclosed.

[33] I am persuaded by the respondents’ reasoning when it comes to weighing of the interests that are at stake. Ordering confidentiality over the estate files removes little from the public domain that is not already “out there”. However, the additional details that are not already out there relate to matters where there is no reason to believe that there is a legitimate public interest. The full circle of persons connected to this tragedy – their names and addresses and their precise relationship to the deceased – are not generally known to the public. The specific security and privacy concerns expressed by the respondents are reasonable and carry a greater weight in the circumstances of this case than the more general if presumptively weighty concerns favouring disclosure advanced by the applicants.
CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)

Dunphy did highlight some of the information typically revealed in estate files that he questioned the public’s right and interest in knowing, such as the names of spouses, grandchildren and professional or residential addresses.

Such information, Dunphy wrote, “poses a material risk of providing useful and heretofore unknown information in the event that the motives underlying the crime have not yet been exhausted.”

 

[MistyWaters]

Dunphy did highlight some of the information typically revealed in estate files that he questioned the public’s right and interest in knowing, such as the names of spouses, grandchildren and professional or residential addresses.

Such information, Dunphy wrote, “poses a material risk of providing useful and heretofore unknown information in the event that the motives underlying the crime have not yet been exhausted.”

Sure, did you notice the words “typically revealed” in what you quoted? He’s offering an “typical” example that may or may not be applicable to this particular estate as we don’t know because the identities of the beneficiaries have been sealed.

 

[MistyWaters]

You only posted part of that document

When a person dies without a valid will, called "intestate", Ontario's Succession Law Reform Act sets out how the estate is distributed.

According to the Act, unless someone who is financially dependent on the deceased person makes a claim, the first $200,000 is given to the deceased person's spouse if he or she has decided to claim his/her entitlement. The other possibility is to claim half of the net family property. A lawyer can help determine which is the better choice.

Anything over $200,000 is shared between the spouse and the descendants (e.g. children, grandchildren) according to specific rules.

If there is no spouse, the deceased person's children will inherit the estate. If any of them have died, that child's descendants (e.g. the deceased person's grandchildren) will inherit their share.

If Honey died first, everything is divided evenly amongst the four children. If Barry died first, then it appears, according to the link you provided, to be divided a lot more broadly. We already know that at least one person has come forward claiming Honey promised them a cut, and who knows how many grand children there are.

More likely that the family would prefer to use Barry's will simply to expedite the process. Going through the courts could tie up the estate for years.

I only posted what was relevant.

If Barry had a Will, then the link I provided is not applicable whatsoever.

My point was, if we are to believe The Star, that Honey had no Will, then her estate would be left to the children and if Barry’s Will directed his estate be left to the children, either way the Sherman children would be beneficiaries. There’s absolutely no reason for the children to engage in a ridiculous conspiracy over which of their parents died first for the sake of manipulating an inheritance.

 

[MistyWaters]

Why do you say that is "highly likely"? I'd say it's highly unlikely.

Oh, why is that?

 

[andreww]

I only posted what was relevant.

If Barry had a Will, then the link I provided is not applicable whatsoever.

My point was, if we are to believe The Star, that Honey had no Will, then her estate would be left to the children and if Barry’s Will directed his estate be left to the children, either way the Sherman children would be beneficiaries. There’s absolutely no reason for the children to engage in a ridiculous conspiracy over which of their parents died first for the sake of manipulating an inheritance.

Then why is in front of a court at all? Is the only reason for the court hearing to get the records sealed?

 

[JayFriend]

Here's a new development. Too bad if it's already been posted, but maybe this board isn't sending me notifications as it's supposed to.

Judge seals estate files of murder victims Barry and Honey Sherman to protect heirs

 

[JDG]

JayFriend, its not new. It happened on June 26th according to the article.
There is an article in the Toronto Star as they are trying to get more information after this thwarted their earlier attempts to get information.

Good to get a reminder though. Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

One of the comments in the Judge’s ruling sealing the Sherman Estate files last August, I’ve bolded below but the italicization of the word “full” is from the actual transcript. It seems commonly assumed, even by Donovan’s recent article, that the four Sherman children are the sole beneficiaries. But it’s also plausible it’s other beneficiaries who have asked the Court that their names and addresses be undisclosed.

[33] I am persuaded by the respondents’ reasoning when it comes to weighing of the interests that are at stake. Ordering confidentiality over the estate files removes little from the public domain that is not already “out there”. However, the additional details that are not already out there relate to matters where there is no reason to believe that there is a legitimate public interest. The full circle of persons connected to this tragedy – their names and addresses and their precise relationship to the deceased – are not generally known to the public. The specific security and privacy concerns expressed by the respondents are reasonable and carry a greater weight in the circumstances of this case than the more general if presumptively weighty concerns favouring disclosure advanced by the applicants.
CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)

If double murder, hopefully the name of the killer/s is/are not sealed within the documents ....

 

[human]

Interesting in that it implies that others are at risk from killers.

Maybe friends? That may upset Winter people. Or perhaps Wnter grandchildren got something and they do not want it known. Or perhaps a non litigant Winter got something

 

[MistyWaters]

Then why is in front of a court at all? Is the only reason for the court hearing to get the records sealed?

Yes, it was heard by the court because Donovan, on behalf of the Toronto Star, requested the both Sherman Estate files be released. The personal safety of the administrators and beneficiaries were sighted as one of the main reasons. Absolutely nowhere is it ever stated the information was not disclosed because Honey did not have a Will.

You can read the Judge’s decision here:

Toronto Star Newspapers Ltd. v. Sherman Estate, 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)

CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)
In part -
[23] I am of the view that the interest of protecting the privacy and dignity of victims of crime and their loved ones is an important one. The degree of intrusion on that privacy and dignity has already been extreme and, I am sure, excruciating. By the same token, the apprehensions regarding risk, while necessarily speculative in these circumstances, are nevertheless reasonable. Without greater clarity regarding the motive underlying the crimes, it is impossible to acquire confidence that the motive is spent and might not be transported to some other who administers or is the beneficiary of the assets of the deceased.

[24] While it would have been preferable to include objective evidence of the gravity of that risk emanating from, for example, the police responsible for the investigation, the lack of such evidence is not fatal. The necessary inferences can be drawn from the known facts (and the unknown ones). The willingness of the perpetrator(s) of the crimes to resort to extreme violence to pursue whatever motive existed has been amply demonstrated. The risk of harm is foreseeable and the foreseeable harm is grave. I have no difficulty in concluding that the current uncertainty gives rise to a reasonable apprehension of risk on behalf of those known to have an interest in receiving or administering the assets of the deceased.

 

[ldlager]

Reporter Kevin Donovan quote from his article:

"Sources have told the Star that Barry’s will left everything to Honey if he died first; if she predeceased him, it divided the estimated $5-billion estate and control of Apotex between their four children, aged 28 to 43."

Unfortunately, Kevin lost total credibility with the above statement (from sources--not a source, but sources). If Honey died before Barry, she couldn't leave their entire $5 billion estate to their kids, meaning BS would be left with nothing.

Maybe this is a misprint...he meant to say that if Honey survived Barry, her estate would be divided among their children when she died. That is the usual agreement between a married couple who trust each other and want their kids to share equally when both have died.

If this was not a misprint, is Donovan trying to use Honey's (alleged) missing will (where Barry gets nothing) as a motive for Barry to kill her? As ridiculous as this sounds, I think that is what he is implying, after reading his entire article which suggests that the Court and police are complicit in a cover-up. You don't even have to read his article--his head line says it clearly "WHERE IS HONEY'S WILL"?

Any other potentially, legitimate actions pointing to a cover-up were pretty much debased imo.


Where is Honey Sherman’s will? | The Star

I’m afraid you have lost me. Barry’s will apparently said that if he died first, honey would inherit. His will also said that if she died first, then his kids would inherit when Barry eventually died. Seems straightforward to me, I’m not sure what you are suggesting is confusing or contradictory.

 

[Satchie]

Then why is in front of a court at all? Is the only reason for the court hearing to get the records sealed?

Yes. Normally an estate goes through probate: the will and other documents, like death certificate, appointment of executor, inventory of assets, etc, are all filed with the court and anyone can go and look at them, and, potentially, appear before a probate judge to make a claim. This is to prevent fraud, so people can intervene if they believe a will is false, or was superceded by a later will, etc.

In this case, the lawyers did not want to allow anyone to see the documents without permission, they asked the probate court to seal them.

The Star then went to superior court challenging the probate judge's order to seal them.

I agree with Misty, that the division of the estate would end up being between the children in either case, unless, perhaps, Honey had a dependent mother or other close relative who she'd been financially supporting.

It's not at all unusual for people to try to make a claim if someone dies without a will (the basis for the plot in Bleak House), but the court nowadays dismisses those claims and only awards to a surviving spouse, and then to children equally.