Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[casesensitive]

It is surprising that Chief Saunders is leaving before his contract runs out early next year. That fact denotes that he has been under extreme stress imo.

Remarks he made points to the stress of having to deal with "political" influences. Handling the pressure from those in power has always been the bane for key people who work for the public, and it transverses across all public entities. Some people are adept at handling it, while others burn out dealing with it. (I would be the burn out type).

It makes me wonder if Saunders really did experience powerful, Liberal political pressure in regard to the Sherman case, and if that ultimately affected the TPS investigation from M/S to M/M. Probably not, but I hope he writes a book someday.

"Asked Monday what he plans to do next, the chief joked “I’m becoming a politician,” a nudge at his dislike of the political elements of the job, and possibly also at his predecessor, Bill Blair, who now serves as Minister of Public Safety in the Trudeau government."

I am re-posting my comment just to note that Kerry Winter "liked" it, which I'm sure referred to the political pressure Chief Saunders may have endured to change a M/M to a double homicide. It seems that KW doesn't hold a grudge against JS casting suspicion toward him, and other people he suspects. I wondered if KW had changed his view of M/S when we learned more about JS. Apparently not, and his "like" answers that question. Lexintoronto, this will interest you also.

 

[Satchie]

Just a comment in regards to the initial murder-suicide media story which is often referred to as proof of a botched homicide investigation, not only sometimes here but I notice it expressed in media comments as well. I’m not convinced..I think it was a deliberate tactic especially because the homicide division officially took over the case as soon as the initial autopsy results were available.

RSBM

Yes, even for the police to just listen to the theories about what happened, that were asserted in the initial days by people close to the Shermans, would be very important for investigating the case. In particular, if the family had supported that theory (as Dellen Millard had done not so many years earlier), that's who you go looking at first. IMO, the fact that the family were outraged by the suggestion, and followed through to the point of releasing their own evidence in support of double homicide, really undermines any case against them.

 

[MistyWaters]

RSBM

Yes, even for the police to just listen to the theories about what happened, that were asserted in the initial days by people close to the Shermans, would be very important for investigating the case. In particular, if the family had supported that theory (as Dellen Millard had done not so many years earlier), that's who you go looking at first. IMO, the fact that the family were outraged by the suggestion, and followed through to the point of releasing their own evidence in support of double homicide, really undermines any case against them.

I agree 100%. If forensic investigators or pathologists immediately suspected a double homicide occurred and the crime scene was staged, for TPS to carry on as if they were totally fooled by the deception would be a critical advantage during those initial 127 interviews.

Only after the deaths were officially ruled a double homicide did TPS disclose 127 interviews had already taken place. Why would TPS conduct all those interviews if they believed crime scene evidence proved a M/S occurred? What a waste of time and resources. However if the killer was one of those 127 who hoped TPS had been successfully misled into believing the staging, they sure wouldn’t be pounding the table insisting a double murder investigation take place. IMO this tactic gave TPS a list of possible suspects early on. Whether that’s changed or not, time will tell.

As you mention, false statements made during the interview with DM are an excellent example of how he initially led the Coroner to conclude a suicide had occurred. As a result the Coroner failed to follow through with a thorough and complete death investigation even though the murder trial revealed there were several red flags.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/wayne-millard-trial-day3-1.4688412
“In the video, Millard says his father "has a very strong liver" because he drinks so much, and was dealing with a debilitating back problem. He also says his father was stressed about his business, and dealt with depression.

"He had depression in him ... he carried some great sadness with him throughout life, but I never really knew what it was," Millard says. "He never wanted to share it with me."

The statement points to the centre of the defence's case — that Millard's father killed himself because he was a reclusive, depressed alcoholic.....”

 

[ldlager]

ldlager said "IMO tps may have some theory of this case, ( many of us do), but they have little to no hard evidence to prove their theory."

ldlager, Are you sure the TPS has little or no hard evidence to prove their theory? They may have some evidence, but not enough to be assured of a win in court yet.

One thing the TPS knows for sure is that when charges are laid, that the defendant(s) will probably have the financial resources to hire the very best legal defense team. The prosecution will not be facing some court appointed defense lawyer with minimal resources.

I believe the TPS will take as long as it takes to put together an ironclad case. Then the defense will use every technique possible to delay, defer and eliminate evidence, and witnesses.

Windsor, no I am not sure that they have little or no hard evidence- that's why I stated IMO.
My point was that IMO these killings were carefullyplanned and that IMO the killers (and any other parties involved ) would have taken the time to cover their tracks, establish alibis, and go to the greatest extent possible to not leave any evidence. That is why I think TPS has a theory but little evidence of any value.

 

[ldlager]

Regarding the Sherman deaths, what do we know of the crime scene which immediately indicated to TPS an obvious homicide took place?

However as homicide detectives were involved from the onset considering the deaths were viewed as suspicious, I have no idea which guidelines you believe weren’t followed.

Dec 17, 2017
“The statement said homicide detectives have taken the lead on investigating the deaths, which have been classified as “suspicious.” Homicide detectives have been involved in the investigation since Friday.”
Police release cause of death of Barry and Honey Sherman

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent...herman-were-a-murder-suicide-author-1.5339243
KD states that the reason the homicide squad was involved was because they suspected that Barry murdered Honey. He bases this on court information he has received:
"...And what I know from various court information that I received in the first six weeks, they were actually only looking at the murder of Honey Sherman. Police were not investigating the murder of Barry Sherman..."

For TPS to have held this theory for weeks very likely cost the TPS valuable time and lost opportunities in collecting evidence related to, and investigating, a double murder.

 

[MistyWaters]

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent...herman-were-a-murder-suicide-author-1.5339243
KD states that the reason the homicide squad was involved was because they suspected that Barry murdered Honey. He bases this on court information he has received:
"...And what I know from various court information that I received in the first six weeks, they were actually only looking at the murder of Honey Sherman. Police were not investigating the murder of Barry Sherman..."

For TPS to have held this theory for weeks very likely cost the TPS valuable time and lost opportunities in collecting evidence related to, and investigating, a double murder.

IIRC KD has stated this several times his reasoning for that was based on TPS initial warrants and subpoenas all or mostly involved Honey’s dealings, not Barry’s. That proves nothing unless TPS was about to file murder charges against a dead person. One explanation would be the personal business of the couple was conducted by Honey, a very reasonable conclusion IMO. I recall it mentioned Barry’s cellphone was under a corporate Apotex account and he certainly would’ve had a company expense acct as well so no warrants in his name for that either. What does that leave for records in his personal name? Probably not much if Honey managed the household expenses. Unless it’s considered airline travel reward miles are relevant.

There is absolutely no proof TPS lost valuable time other than opinion. 127 interviews between December 15th and January 26th - that’s 42 days- through Hanukkah, Christmas, and New Years is nothing to scoff at.

ETA
Jan 26th/18
Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman being investigated as double homicide
“She said since then, “thousands of hours” have been spent on the investigation so far and that detectives have executed search warrants for electronic evidence at Barry Sherman’s pharmaceutical company Apotex where he was chairman and CEO.

Four terabytes of surveillance footage has also been seized from area businesses and homes, each containing 500 hours of footage.

So far, 127 witnesses have been interviewed, but the list of people that detectives still need to speak with is growing, she said...”

 

[ldlager]

IIRC KD has stated this several times his reasoning for that was based on TPS initial warrants and subpoenas all or mostly involved Honey’s dealings, not Barry’s. That proves nothing unless TPS was about to file murder charges against a dead person. One explanation would be the personal business of the couple was conducted by Honey, a very reasonable conclusion IMO. I recall it mentioned Barry’s cellphone was under a corporate Apotex account and he certainly would’ve had a company expense acct as well so no warrants in his name for that either. What does that leave for records in his personal name? Probably not much if Honey managed the household expenses. Unless it’s considered airline travel reward miles are relevant.

There is absolutely no proof TPS lost valuable time other than opinion. 127 interviews between December 15th and January 26th - that’s 42 days- through Hanukkah, Christmas, and New Years is nothing to scoff at.

ETA
Jan 26th/18
Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman being investigated as double homicide
“She said since then, “thousands of hours” have been spent on the investigation so far and that detectives have executed search warrants for electronic evidence at Barry Sherman’s pharmaceutical company Apotex where he was chairman and CEO.

Four terabytes of surveillance footage has also been seized from area businesses and homes, each containing 500 hours of footage.

So far, 127 witnesses have been interviewed, but the list of people that detectives still need to speak with is growing, she said...”

Yes, you are correct, it is exactly my opinion that tps lost valuable time. I suspect the 127 interviews were designed to build a case against Barry, not to find the killers.

 

[ldlager]

IIRC KD has stated this several times his reasoning for that was based on TPS initial warrants and subpoenas all or mostly involved Honey’s dealings, not Barry’s. That proves nothing unless TPS was about to file murder charges against a dead person. One explanation would be the personal business of the couple was conducted by Honey, a very reasonable conclusion IMO. I recall it mentioned Barry’s cellphone was under a corporate Apotex account and he certainly would’ve had a company expense acct as well so no warrants in his name for that either. What does that leave for records in his personal name? Probably not much if Honey managed the household expenses. Unless it’s considered airline travel reward miles are relevant.

There is absolutely no proof TPS lost valuable time other than opinion. 127 interviews between December 15th and January 26th - that’s 42 days- through Hanukkah, Christmas, and New Years is nothing to scoff at.

ETA
Jan 26th/18
Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman being investigated as double homicide
“She said since then, “thousands of hours” have been spent on the investigation so far and that detectives have executed search warrants for electronic evidence at Barry Sherman’s pharmaceutical company Apotex where he was chairman and CEO.

Four terabytes of surveillance footage has also been seized from area businesses and homes, each containing 500 hours of footage.

So far, 127 witnesses have been interviewed, but the list of people that detectives still need to speak with is growing, she said...”

 

[WINDSOR]

Windsor, no I am not sure that they have little or no hard evidence- that's why I stated IMO.
My point was that IMO these killings were carefullyplanned and that IMO the killers (and any other parties involved ) would have taken the time to cover their tracks, establish alibis, and go to the greatest extent possible to not leave any evidence. That is why I think TPS has a theory but little evidence of any value.

Sorry for my misunderstanding. I fully agree regarding the careful planning and minimal evidence.
WINDSOR

 

[JerseyGirl]

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