Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

[kiwi50]

If they were murdered by contract killers then they were not very professional or organized.
The belt around Barry's neck was from around his waste. The one around Honey's neck was last seen by the trainer in the master bedroom on the 13th.
Why would a contract killer agree to such a long drawn out process?
Why not shoot them and get out of there?
They spent hours at the scene of a crime.
Makes no sense that it was professional.

That was very observant of him. (the personal trainer)

 

[MistyWaters]

That was very observant of him. (the personal trainer)

And about the personal trainer - so I think the Star story goes this personal trainer (with an outstanding ability of recall, obviously) was at the Sherman residence the Friday morning when the bodies were discovered. He worked with both Barry and Honey, if I’ve gotten it correct.

So what of the person who came by later that same day, who was about to cross the crime scene tape. A different personal trainer?

Google -
www.theglobeandmail.com › toronto › article37357096
Dec 15, 2017 — The family of Barry and Honey Sherman urged the Toronto Police Services ... A man who identified himself as a personal trainer arrived at the ..

 

[Sphinx]

If they were murdered by contract killers then they were not very professional or organized.
The belt around Barry's neck was from around his waste. The one around Honey's neck was last seen by the trainer in the master bedroom on the 13th.
Why would a contract killer agree to such a long drawn out process?
Why not shoot them and get out of there?
They spent hours at the scene of a crime.
Makes no sense that it was professional.

In my opinion, contract killers would do what their client wanted, especially if it meant more money. I think whoever hired these people wanted them to stage it to look like a murder suicide so that LE would not be looking for a suspect, but some clues were left, especially on the bodies, with evidence of their wrists being bound, and no restraints found at the scene. As mentioned before, a phone that likely fell from Honey's hand when she was attacked, and Barry's gloves and some papers that likely fell when he was attacked, were left on the floor.

They had to wait in the house, first for Honey to return, then Barry, and after the murders, stage the scene. There is no way they were going to be in and out quickly, but they knew they had lots of time, and that likely no one else would visit the house that evening, and even if someone did, it is unlikely they would have gone to the basement pool room. They probably had look- outs outside, as well as a getaway vehicle parked nearby on another street.I remember reading in one newspaper article that a neighbour told LE about seeing 2 people, a man and a woman, walking a dog in the neighbourhood, and I think it was implied that they were not known to those who observed them, as people living in the neighbourhood. LE likely saw them on some surveillance videos gathered from neighbours. IMO

 

[deugirtni]

I have got what I feel to be, an interesting possible theory on what is generally believed to have been confusion during the first six weeks in regard to manner of death. Bear with me, I'll try to make it as brief as I can, although I seem to experience difficulty in being brief. ;[

If it is true, it's something they cannot speak of at this time, for obvious/political/politically-correct/relationship/etc, reasons.

I was thinking about my dismay that they chose to use what I considered to have been a 'junior' forensic pathologist for the autopsies of both victims in this case, considering this case seems to be not your everyday murder/case, seems to possibly have some staging and therefore possible deception involved (imho). I don't want to argue with anyone about the 'junior' status. I know that six and a half years seems a long time to be in a position, however imho, a forensic pathologist role is a lifelong learning occupation.. the longer one is doing it, the more they will see, the more experience they will gain, etc. I don't think anyone could dispute that?

When the family hired Chiasson, I was surprised that some felt that his assessment would/could/might be inferior somehow, to Michael Pickup's assessment, considering Chiasson has been considered an expert in forensic pathology in over 200 court cases and had performed thousands of autopsies before December 2017 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/james-turpin-murder-trial-defence-1.3614416), he once held the role of Pickup's boss (Chief Forensic Pathologist for the province of Ontario) for seven years (1994-2001) (interesting reading in 'the Goudge Report'). Even worse that some might even possibly entertain the thought that a pathologist of Chiasson's stature would risk his reputation just because he was hired privately by a family hoping for a certain outcome.

I was afraid of mixing up Michael Pickup's name with his boss, Michael Pollanen, so I was doing some looking around. Barry and Honey were murdered in December 2017. I came across some articles which suggest that Pollanen has somewhat of a documented history of what is sometimes referred to as 'tunnel vision'.. looking at a scenario, making a decision, and then seeking backup to support that decision, rather than the opposite, which is supposed to occur. Also, that he has been accused of messing with other pathologists' findings, bullying them, etc.

Given this information, what IF...... all along, Pickup, the pathologist who actually performed both autopsies, had believed it to be a double homicide (he had removed both victims' wrist skin samples to keep as evidence of some kind), but his hands were tied by his superiors, in remaining undetermined?

For example.. it has been reported that police spent an enormous amount of money investigating this case. I suspect that the financial resources available to police could not continue indefinitely, and especially if there was nothing from the ME's office to say that the deaths were homicides. I also suspect that TPS wasn't super interested in dealing with the family's assembled team of detectives, legal, and pathologist, because it *seems* like it may have been, or at least had the potential to create, a conflict in many different ways (imo).

As a further 'what IF..', for all we know, a situation of this sort could have been happening also within the TPS, whereby certain higher-up LE believed it to be one thing, while perhaps others, possibly those doing the actual investigating, believed it to be another thing? Then along comes KD with his headline news one day, that the couple was murdered, as per the second pathologist... an announcement which reportedly seems to have supposedly led to police finally meeting with him, and then making their 'targeted double homicide' announcement/press conference. It may have been what had been suspected by most all along, but hands were tied, until kind of publicly forced into action. IIRC, I recall there being reports that Susan Gomes had said that she hadn't ever thought it was M/S, or something to that effect?

All of this is just to say... we, the public, don't have a clue what is going on behind various doors, until things become unveiled, like at a trial, or an inquiry. imo.
----
"Pollanen fell into several major pitfalls laid out by the landmark Goudge inquiry sparked by Smith's work, Molloy found.

Among them was confirmation bias - reaching a conclusion and working backward to find evidence to support it, and professional credibility bias - being unwilling to change an opinion once stated"

DR. MICHAEL POLLANEN-SLAMMED-ONTARIO CHIEF PATHOLOGIST
----
In a case that parallels a scathing judge’s decision about Ontario’s chief forensic pathologist two years ago, Dr. Michael Pollanen has been accused of interfering in the work of the province’s other forensic pathologists, pressing them to change their findings in suspicious deaths and undermining those who disagree with him.
...
Dr. Jane Turner, a forensic pathologist who worked for almost two years at the Hamilton Regional Forensic Pathology Unit and is now working as a consultant in St. Louis, Mo., made the allegations in an Aug. 12 letter to Ontario Solicitor General Sylvia Jones.

“My complaint against Dr. Pollanen is not that I am always right and Dr. Pollanen is always wrong, but rather that his interference, bullying and insistence on compliance threaten the integrity of the system of death investigation,” Turner told Jones.

“No one is allowed to challenge his views.”

Christie Blatchford: 'Bullying' Ontario chief forensic pathologist accused of interfering with cases | National Post
----

Further to my earlier post.. it appears it may carry more substance than I thought. I hadn't really noticed this in KD's book previously, or it didn't stand out to me at the time. Sounds like the ME who actually performed both autopsies may have believed double murder all along, and maybe there *was* some other hindrance to that being the finding.

From the book (ebook says pg 114) and this is when KD is writing about his story hitting the fan about double murder:
The story online was read by almost a million people in two days, in Canada and around the world. It was also read by senior officers in the Toronto Police Service, who summoned the homicide and division detectives working the Sherman case. The order was simple: interview David Chiasson, the pathologist hired by the family. Jim Cairns, who would later fill me in on the background activities the story spawned, said he could never understand why police needed a story on the front page of a newspaper to spur them to interview someone they should have spoken to weeks earlier. Police did get in touch with Chiasson, who spoke to them the following Wednesday. Then police talked again to Michael Pickup, who had performed the first autopsy. Pickup concurred with Chiasson’s findings.

 

[MistyWaters]

Further to my earlier post.. it appears it may carry more substance than I thought. I hadn't really noticed this in KD's book previously, or it didn't stand out to me at the time. Sounds like the ME who actually performed both autopsies may have believed double murder all along, and maybe there *was* some other hindrance to that being the finding.

From the book (ebook says pg 114) and this is when KD is writing about his story hitting the fan about double murder:
The story online was read by almost a million people in two days, in Canada and around the world. It was also read by senior officers in the Toronto Police Service, who summoned the homicide and division detectives working the Sherman case. The order was simple: interview David Chiasson, the pathologist hired by the family. Jim Cairns, who would later fill me in on the background activities the story spawned, said he could never understand why police needed a story on the front page of a newspaper to spur them to interview someone they should have spoken to weeks earlier. Police did get in touch with Chiasson, who spoke to them the following Wednesday. Then police talked again to Michael Pickup, who had performed the first autopsy. Pickup concurred with Chiasson’s findings.

This JC is KD’s source of of medical related opinion? That surprises me.

“In 2010, the college entered into undertakings with former chief coroner James Youngand former deputy corner Jim Cairns, agreeing to drop investigations into them if they promised never to reapply to practise medicine again.”
Doctors who supervised disgraced pathologist Charles Smith never faced disciplinary hearing

 

[deugirtni]

If they were murdered by contract killers then they were not very professional or organized.
The belt around Barry's neck was from around his waste. The one around Honey's neck was last seen by the trainer in the master bedroom on the 13th.
Why would a contract killer agree to such a long drawn out process?
Why not shoot them and get out of there?
They spent hours at the scene of a crime.
Makes no sense that it was professional.

That was very observant of him. (the personal trainer)

And about the personal trainer - so I think the Star story goes this personal trainer (with an outstanding ability of recall, obviously) was at the Sherman residence the Friday morning when the bodies were discovered. He worked with both Barry and Honey, if I’ve gotten it correct.

So what of the person who came by later that same day, who was about to cross the crime scene tape. A different personal trainer?

Google -
www.theglobeandmail.com › toronto › article37357096
Dec 15, 2017 — The family of Barry and Honey Sherman urged the Toronto Police Services ... A man who identified himself as a personal trainer arrived at the ..

In fairness to newer member, RJR, he/she may not realize a link is supposed to be provided. In KD's book, he describes what occurred earlier on the Wednesday morning (the date they believe the couple was killed). It explains that H had purchased two 'cheap' belts at Canadian Tire for $9.99 each, one in size 34 and one in size 36, because she wasn't sure which size B would be at that time. According to the trainer, who was female and also a family friend (Denise Gold), and reportedly came each Monday and Wednesday, she had worked with each of the couple that morning, and B had worn one of the belts for the first time that day (after sitting for weeks on a bench in their bedroom).

from KD's book (ebook says pg 232-234):
Around his waist was a leather belt Honey had given him, one of two cheap belts she had purchased recently—on sale for $9.99 each—at Canadian Tire. One was a thirty-four-inch belt, the other a thirty-six-inch belt. For weeks, the two identical belts had remained on a padded bench in the room, along with several piles of shirts and sweaters. Today, he had decided to wear one of them. “Barry, that’s too tight for you,” Honey said from the floor. “It’s perfect,” he replied. The belt was cinched tight at hip level, his ample stomach protruding over the leather.

 

[ldlager]

Very true.

Providing an investigative update on an unsolved crime via the media is the same as volunteering that information to the murderer. I’ve never followed any other case in Canada where we know much of anything in advance to an arrest and trial so this one isn’t any different.

the question is, if LE has only narrowed its list to “many POIs” then are the police any closer to solving these murders than they were over 1000 days ago?

 

[dotr]

In my opinion, contract killers would do what their client wanted, especially if it meant more money. I think whoever hired these people wanted them to stage it to look like a murder suicide so that LE would not be looking for a suspect, but some clues were left, especially on the bodies, with evidence of their wrists being bound, and no restraints found at the scene. As mentioned before, a phone that likely fell from Honey's hand when she was attacked, and Barry's gloves and some papers that likely fell when he was attacked, were left on the floor.

rsbbm. imo, speculation.
Honey's cell phone is still a bit of a mystery to me. If she managed to (presumably) run to the bathroom to hide with her phone, did she attempt to call 911 or anybody?
Wouldn't the perp be concerned that she already did call, are they quite sure that HS was the person who left her phone there?
Cannot find the news link or video (so consider it speculation) that i am certain mentioned the possibility that HS may have tried to call 911 and was cut short, perhaps causing some signal mix up resulting in the neighbours getting a police response although they did not phone them?
Barry and Honey Sherman’s neighbours cite mysterious 911 call, visitor on day before billionaires found dead
''May 20, 2019
''The Shermans lived at 50 Old Colony Rd. They were last seen alive on the evening of Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017. Their bodies were discovered two days later. No official time of death has been released but sources close to the case have said it is believed the Shermans died late on Wednesday or early Thursday morning. Police are investigating the case as a targeted double homicide.

On the Thursday morning at 9:45 a.m., a full day before the Sherman bodies were discovered, homeowners down the road from the Shermans answered a knock on their door. The Star has agreed not to identify the homeowners or their exact address. They live roughly 10 houses away on Old Colony, near Bayview Ave. and Hwy. 401.

The man at the door was a uniformed police officer asking if someone in their home had made a 911 call. The homeowners said no. The officer shared few details, but said police believed it came from the homeowners’ house, but did not say if the call had come from a cellular phone or a landline. The officer did not say what time the call came in.''

 

[casesensitive]

I just wanted to interject here... it is always good to see an active thread on WS for an unsolved case. If Kevin Donovan hadn't pursued the Sherman case, the last we would have heard anything would have been from the TPS's press conference almost three years ago. This thread would have gone silent at that time.

KD has kept the case alive and held the TPS accountable to prove that this investigation has been handled properly. That is what dedicated investigative journalists do. Bash him if you want, but without him there would have been zero info over the past three years. jmo

 

[ldlager]

When you play poker, do you tell your opponent clearly and precisely what is in your hand?

The perp(s) read the news too.

No but when you show your hand and 3 other players at the table see you have only one ace, you can’t claim to have “many” and still retain any credibility

 

[ldlager]

And about the personal trainer - so I think the Star story goes this personal trainer (with an outstanding ability of recall, obviously) was at the Sherman residence the Friday morning when the bodies were discovered. He worked with both Barry and Honey, if I’ve gotten it correct.

So what of the person who came by later that same day, who was about to cross the crime scene tape. A different personal trainer?

Google -
www.theglobeandmail.com › toronto › article37357096
Dec 15, 2017 — The family of Barry and Honey Sherman urged the Toronto Police Services ... A man who identified himself as a personal trainer arrived at the ..

yes I believe the one that arrived in the Friday morning was a female trainer. The trainer that arrived after the police arrived on the was a male.

 

[RHR]

In fairness to newer member, RJR, he/she may not realize a link is supposed to be provided. In KD's book, he describes what occurred earlier on the Wednesday morning (the date they believe the couple was killed). It explains that H had purchased two 'cheap' belts at Canadian Tire for $9.99 each, one in size 34 and one in size 36, because she wasn't sure which size B would be at that time. According to the trainer, who was female and also a family friend (Denise Gold), and reportedly came each Monday and Wednesday, she had worked with each of the couple that morning, and B had worn one of the belts for the first time that day (after sitting for weeks on a bench in their bedroom).

from KD's book (ebook says pg 232-234):
Around his waist was a leather belt Honey had given him, one of two cheap belts she had purchased recently—on sale for $9.99 each—at Canadian Tire. One was a thirty-four-inch belt, the other a thirty-six-inch belt. For weeks, the two identical belts had remained on a padded bench in the room, along with several piles of shirts and sweaters. Today, he had decided to wear one of them. “Barry, that’s too tight for you,” Honey said from the floor. “It’s perfect,” he replied. The belt was cinched tight at hip level, his ample stomach protruding over the leather.

 

[RHR]

Sorry forgive me, I not sure what i am doing and how this works but you guys can guide me.
BTW the trainer on Friday was a female.
I think i saw something saying HE/SHE.

 

[RHR]

I just wanted to interject here... it is always good to see an active thread on WS for an unsolved case. If Kevin Donovan hadn't pursued the Sherman case, the last we would have heard anything would have been from the TPS's press conference almost three years ago. This thread would have gone silent at that time.

KD has kept the case alive and held the TPS accountable to prove that this investigation has been handled properly. That is what dedicated investigative journalists do. Bash him if you want, but without him there would have been zero info over the past three years. jmo

Absolutly correct.

 

[LadyL]

Seems to be a case of they know who it is but need more evidence.

pretty sure they've known since early on JMO

 

[RHR]

yes I believe the one that arrived in the Friday morning was a female trainer. The trainer that arrived after the police arrived on the was a male.

The trainer that arrived on Friday was not the same trainer who on Wednesday talked about the book in KD'S book.
Sorry, talked about the belts in KD's book

 

[RHR]

In my opinion, contract killers would do what their client wanted, especially if it meant more money. I think whoever hired these people wanted them to stage it to look like a murder suicide so that LE would not be looking for a suspect, but some clues were left, especially on the bodies, with evidence of their wrists being bound, and no restraints found at the scene. As mentioned before, a phone that likely fell from Honey's hand when she was attacked, and Barry's gloves and some papers that likely fell when he was attacked, were left on the floor.

They had to wait in the house, first for Honey to return, then Barry, and after the murders, stage the scene. There is no way they were going to be in and out quickly, but they knew they had lots of time, and that likely no one else would visit the house that evening, and even if someone did, it is unlikely they would have gone to the basement pool room. They probably had look- outs outside, as well as a getaway vehicle parked nearby on another street.I remember reading in one newspaper article that a neighbour told LE about seeing 2 people, a man and a woman, walking a dog in the neighbourhood, and I think it was implied that they were not known to those who observed them, as people living in the neighbourhood. LE likely saw them on some surveillance videos gathered from neighbours. IMO

So they go into with instructions. Take the belt from barry's waist and lets hope honey is wearing one also but if she isn't go rummage around in their bedroom for one.
Laurel and Hardy

 

[ldlager]

The trainer that arrived on Friday was not the same trainer who on Wednesday talked about the book in KD'S book.
Sorry, talked about the belts in KD's book

2 trainers arrived on Friday. Female in the morning, male later in the day

 

[MistyWaters]

I just wanted to interject here... it is always good to see an active thread on WS for an unsolved case. If Kevin Donovan hadn't pursued the Sherman case, the last we would have heard anything would have been from the TPS's press conference almost three years ago. This thread would have gone silent at that time.

KD has kept the case alive and held the TPS accountable to prove that this investigation has been handled properly. That is what dedicated investigative journalists do. Bash him if you want, but without him there would have been zero info over the past three years. jmo

I’m just curious how you think he’s accomplished this - “KD has...held the TPS accountable to prove that this investigation has been handled properly.”

KD has no access to investigative files other than some recent production warrants and subpoenas which were initially approved by a judge, then granted for release by a judge upon his request. Anything filed through the courts is considered public information, unless a judge refuses its release.

 

[MistyWaters]

In my opinion, contract killers would do what their client wanted, especially if it meant more money. I think whoever hired these people wanted them to stage it to look like a murder suicide so that LE would not be looking for a suspect, but some clues were left, especially on the bodies, with evidence of their wrists being bound, and no restraints found at the scene. As mentioned before, a phone that likely fell from Honey's hand when she was attacked, and Barry's gloves and some papers that likely fell when he was attacked, were left on the floor.

They had to wait in the house, first for Honey to return, then Barry, and after the murders, stage the scene. There is no way they were going to be in and out quickly, but they knew they had lots of time, and that likely no one else would visit the house that evening, and even if someone did, it is unlikely they would have gone to the basement pool room. They probably had look- outs outside, as well as a getaway vehicle parked nearby on another street.I remember reading in one newspaper article that a neighbour told LE about seeing 2 people, a man and a woman, walking a dog in the neighbourhood, and I think it was implied that they were not known to those who observed them, as people living in the neighbourhood. LE likely saw them on some surveillance videos gathered from neighbours. IMO

Why would somebody hire contract killers to murder a couple, asking that their deaths appear a M/S in the way the Shermans were found? I just can’t see the point, death is death when it happens without the instigator becoming directly involved.

Staging some sort of accidental death might get past officials. So might a very obvious M/S with a different causes of death for each. But two bodies strung up side by side similar to a hanging type assassination and involving significant physical dexterity, the railing, coats, belts, etc so the murderer was positioned and died in exactly the same way as his spouse, by neck ligature compression? All that put together is a huge red flag additional investigation would be required whether or not family and friends spoke out.

Third parties may’ve been present but I think the one responsible for murdering the Shermans was also directly involved in their deaths. But simply murdering them wasn’t enough. Whether the staging in the way they were found was a result of a fantasy or an attempt to humiliate their good name, the killer just couldn’t resist. But regardless, it didn’t pass for m/s.

JMO