Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[DarkSkink]

I suspect the reason for the rush to judgement about murder/suicide is because police are always attending 'domestics' and when a woman or man is murdered, esp in the home, its more often than not the spouse who did it. They didn't 'just' say murder/suicide, they supposed a double suicide as well but that didn't 'catch on' as a possibility. I also do not really think it was a judgement, just loose lips sinking ships. of course the media wants something sensational, something that sells papers. IMO

If there was doubt about what happened there, LE would have called in homicide right away and took many more precautions. They still haven't labelled this as anything more than "suspicious".

I doubt that their gender was what they based it on. One male, one female, must be domestic.

There is likely something very, very glaring and obvious, like one partner beaten, and one partner showing knucle injuries. Perhaps bloody footprints of one dragging the other with the bloody footwear still on the wearer. Perhaps an item from the home was used to hit the other and was found with bloody hand prints or fingerprints on it. Perhaps there was a message scrawled on a body or a wall.

There is always the possibility LE will suddenly charge someone and allege they staged the scene, but it doesn't seem likely. There are no real telling signs that's where this is heading.

They will likely wrap things up at the home, wait for toxicology results, put everything together for a PR type announcement, and then wait for a busy news day to release their findings so that it won't be the lead story for a week.

 

[DarkSkink]

I am not that sure of that but I would prefer this to be a professional hit for the family. Certainly the garage/pool area is the most accessible and quiet. Wonder if the police are looking for garage door opener?
But the question is why the police didnt have much doubt of body being moved? Why did they right away think this was murder/suicide?
As much as I do not wish this to be a murder suicide I think it is possible. If the body was moved prior to rigor (variable onset but 3 hours?) this would be physically possible particularly as he would only have to slide her under pool railing. Thing thing which gets me is why belts? Where do you see a belt rather than rope being a sensible murder weapon? I would think while getting undressed in bedroom this would be logical. I also hate to point out that the obvious person to know the house, the security, the timing and routine of staff how the lift worked (if he used this) and location of belts would be Barry himself.
He could have stangled her in a rage then regretted it all and had plenty of time and brains to move her dress her and arrange her so that the family would be spared the absolutr certainty that he killed their mother. He hung himself with a belt to match.
If he did this I doubt it was intentional but it seems in keeping with his character to try to spare the family.

Well, not everyone has rope at the ready, or even in the house, and not everyone is confident in their rope tying skills.

The easiest way to make a slip knot that won't untie is a pre-made one.

As well, belt strangulation is not only used for murder and suicide, but for pleasure as well. There may be some previous experience with belts.

Perhaps even some online reasearch was done.

 

[human]

Is there confirmation of the use of male leather belts and their jackets being behind their backs, by anything other than the Daily UK?

I'm trying to read the entire thread 1 and 2, but it's taking a bit of time.

Does anyone have thoughts on the new cannabis pill that Sherman was looking to manufacture, as per the new article in Star posted last night?

Isn't that a departure from reproducing existing medicines?

Also - could his political influence have driven the fairly new practice by insurance companies to insist on a generic and less expensive medicine be used at all times, unless a specific note by the Dr.is issued necessitating the original medicine? That came into effect around 2 years ago, correct? What a way to increase business!

Interesting. Where I lived using generic substitutes has been a requirement for decades.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

With the very quick "murder/suicide" theory put out to the public, chances are there is some glaring evidence that one did something to the other, dragged the person to the basement, and then hung both the person, and then themselves.

One can imagine a physical fight, where one is battered, and one has hand damage, with bloody drag marks down steps to the basement. Perhaps not dead, the victim was then hung. The perp then hung themselves, perhaps minutes, or perhaps a few hours later in the same manner.

Blood splatter of one on the other, self defense wounds, skin under fingernails, scratch marks... all signs of a struggle between just the two victims. Something triggered the rush to judgement about a murder/suicide.

BBM

Great post. I agree. There was something at that scene that jumped out at them as being a murder suicide. Without going into the gory details I would say defensive wounds on Honey and maybe scratches or other wounds on Barry where an altercation had obviously taken place between the two of them. If there was his DNA evidence beneath her nails I would say that would seal the deal for LE.

I can see that the kids would be in denial about what happened. No one wants to think their parent could kill the other parent. But needless to say it happens many thousand of times.

I personally think that both of their medical records should be examined. Questions should be asked about them. Was Barry taking some medication that would have affected his moods or made him hostile like the pain medication Oxycontin? Was he taking a mood altering drug like Prozac? Was he taking testosterone? Did he have any mental illness such as schizophrenia? At his age dementia or alzheimers could have been occurring. Was he exposed to any chemicals present or in the past that could have altered his state of mind or impaired his thinking?

It has been mentioned that in the past Honey had throat cancer. I am assuming she would have had throat surgery. Did that weaken the muscles in her neck making it easier to strangle her? Did scar tissue build up partially blocking her airway or carotid artery making just a small amount of pressure result in asphyxiation?

Had she just received a diagnosis that the cancer had returned and she had only months to live? If she had received such a diagnosis I could see Barry killing her then himself to keep her from suffering.

All of this is just pure speculation on my part but it is something to think about as we wait for more news.

JMO

 

[Doghairrules]

Wow. Lots of interesting info, thanks.

It certainly doesn’t sound like she’s a wild spender, does it? :thinking:

 

[cluciano63]

I don't see this as a double murder, but doubt it will ever be listed as other than "unresolved" or "suspicious". LE can do nothing, imo that will convince the majority that this was murder/suicide so instead, there will be no official response. Jmo

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I am not that sure of that but I would prefer this to be a professional hit for the family. Certainly the garage/pool area is the most accessible and quiet. Wonder if the police are looking for garage door opener?
But the question is why the police didnt have much doubt of body being moved? Why did they right away think this was murder/suicide?
As much as I do not wish this to be a murder suicide I think it is possible. If the body was moved prior to rigor (variable onset but 3 hours?) this would be physically possible particularly as he would only have to slide her under pool railing. Thing thing which gets me is why belts? Where do you see a belt rather than rope being a sensible murder weapon? I would think while getting undressed in bedroom this would be logical. I also hate to point out that the obvious person to know the house, the security, the timing and routine of staff how the lift worked (if he used this) and location of belts would be Barry himself.
He could have stangled her in a rage then regretted it all and had plenty of time and brains to move her dress her and arrange her so that the family would be spared the absolutr certainty that he killed their mother. He hung himself with a belt to match.
If he did this I doubt it was intentional but it seems in keeping with his character to try to spare the family.

I think instead of him wanting it to look like a double murder, he wanted it to look like they both committed suicide.

By waiting a few hours to kill himself, maybe he thought that his kids would think she hung herself and he found her a few hours later and just couldn't live without her so he killed himself in the exact same way in his grief.

I can see him doing this, especially if he did not mean to kill her or killed her in a fit of rage he later regretted.

JMO

 

[clearskies1]

BBM

Great post. I agree. There was something at that scene that jumped out at them as being a murder suicide. Without going into the gory details I would say defensive wounds on Honey and maybe scratches or other wounds on Barry where an altercation had obviously taken place between the two of them. If there was his DNA evidence beneath her nails I would say that would seal the deal for LE.

I can see that the kids would be in denial about what happened. No one wants to think their parent could kill the other parent. But needless to say it happens many thousand of times.

I personally think that both of their medical records should be examined. Questions should be asked about them. Was Barry taking some medication that would have affected his moods or made him hostile like the pain medication Oxycontin? Was he taking a mood altering drug like Prozac? Was he taking testosterone? Did he have any mental illness such as schizophrenia? At his age dementia or alzheimers could have been occurring. Was he exposed to any chemicals present or in the past that could have altered his state of mind or impaired his thinking?

It has been mentioned that in the past Honey had throat cancer. I am assuming she would have had throat surgery. Did that weaken the muscles in her neck making it easier to strangle her? Did scar tissue build up partially blocking her airway or carotid artery making just a small amount of pressure result in asphyxiation?

Had she just received a diagnosis that the cancer had returned and she had only months to live? If she had received such a diagnosis I could see Barry killing her then himself to keep her from suffering.

All of this is just pure speculation on my part but it is something to think about as we wait for more news.

JMO

I agree that the crime scene very quickly clued them in to the idea that it was a murder suicide -- I note that there was a report that LE said that Honey was not killed in the pool area, where she was found. I'm not understanding why this is so hard for people to believe. Maybe it's the fact that it was done by ligature/hanging, rather than with a gun.

 

[Snoopster]

I'm not totally caught up on the latest, but while visiting family in Toronto for Christmas my sister and her daughter told me an interesting story. They were in the liquor store the day of the memorial and got chatting with a helpful female customer while trying to pick out a particular liquor. The woman then apologized for her appearance (she looked fine) because she had been crying. She told them she had been at the Sherman's memorial service and that she was devastated. She said she worked for the family, but wasn't clear in what capacity. (I had wondered if it was the real estate agent, but my sister didn't think so. My sister's guess was that she was a housekeeper or something similar because she mentioned working for a number of families.) The woman then leaned in and whispered emphatically that "there was no way it was suicide!!"

This is just a comment from a stranger, so just take it as such.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Lots of surmising but its all rumours. No one has said belts, moving a body or even hanging from a railing. Just 'sources'.
It seems Barry needed direction in dressing himself, which is a FACT given out by his sister in law, Mary.....so don't be so sure that he'd know where to find belts. or anything for that matter. It has been reported that Honey helped him pick which foods to eat and put out his clothing on a daily basis. 'sources' don't really count, the autopsy report hasn't been released (may never be if the family deep sixes it, as is their right).

All we know is COD. As for the family and how they'll cope, I just don't know. I feel for all of them, of course, but didn't her sister indicate that 'all she wanted to do was give it away"? She was flowing tears, right at the end of her eulogy...I didn't quite hear all of it but I think she said, in great distress, 'all she wanted to do was give.......away".

I do hope that between two autopsys, two investigations and with the help of Lawyer Greenspan, they do get some answers. Whatever the truth, it can't be worse than what they're dealing with now. G_d bless them.

No that is not a fact, it is conjecture on the part of her sister. Maybe even an exaggeration on the sisters part since it seems that Barry was not helpless. The man worked long hours often 7 days a week.

On the other hand if what the sister says is true, it could be that Barry had dementia or alzheimers. In that case he could have had an onset in the night and not known who she was, mistaking her for a burglar or someone trying to kill him. Later realizing what he did he killed himself.

JMO

 

[kiwi50]

No that is not a fact, it is conjecture on the part of her sister. Maybe even an exaggeration on the sisters part since it seems that Barry was not helpless. The man worked long hours often 7 days a week.

On the other hand if what the sister says is true, it could be that Barry had dementia or alzheimers. In that case he could have had an onset in the night and not known who she was, mistaking her for a burglar or someone trying to kill him. Later realizing what he did he killed himself.

JMO

I’d love to relisten to Mary’s words at the service, of all people I think she had the greatest insight into the marriage.
Trying to recall what she said about Barry.
Is the memorial service available online still? I’ve only found snippets from it.

 

[DarkSkink]

No that is not a fact, it is conjecture on the part of her sister. Maybe even an exaggeration on the sisters part since it seems that Barry was not helpless. The man worked long hours often 7 days a week.

On the other hand if what the sister says is true, it could be that Barry had dementia or alzheimers. In that case he could have had an onset in the night and not known who she was, mistaking her for a burglar or someone trying to kill him. Later realizing what he did he killed himself.

JMO

Yes, even if he wasn't picking out his clothes, he would likely know where to find a belt.

At their ages, you never do know what state of decay their minds are at. Elder/Senior Rage is well documented, partial dementia, or even early onset Alzheimer's could have been a minor or major factor. Maybe even a simple forgetful moment could spark an argument big enough to set them down this path.

Perhaps there was some planning involved in this as well. It may not have been spontaneous.

 

[kemo]

This is either a murder-suicide or a double murder staged to look like a double suicide ( or perhaps a murder suicide). We have discussed how unusual a murder suicide this would have been, but it also would be an unusual murder.

Assuming this was a double murder, there is some reason to believe this was a hired “hit” or otherwise done by someone who knew what they were doing. The killer(s) was able to get into and out of the house without being seen or attracting attention and they did not leave any obvious indication of their presence. We don’t how cleanly it was really done and we don’t know about the security system (I’m pretty certain there was one). It will all come out eventually.

Realistically, most people have no ties to organized crime and would have no way to locate some “ Sammy the Bull” type. Most “hit men” are just some guy with criminal inclinations who wants some fast money; Hardly a professional. Hiring someone like that entails all kinds of risks and if the guy gets caught, you can expect he will sell you out to save his skin. Still, people do cut deals like that and sometimes the job does get done.

Staging a murder to look like a double suicide is pretty unusual. I would expect most hired killers to just kill the intended victim in the simplest, most effective means possible and then get out of Dodge while leaving as little evidence as possible.

From what I have read, staged suicides are rarely successful. Of course, successfully staged suicides that are never detected would not be part of any statistics of the matter.

The murderer and the person doing the hiring would always be better off if
the hit man made it look like a suicide but the added time and the greater chance of leaving evidence might offset the advantages. If the person doing the hiring has a solid alibi and has covered up his financial and phone records, and the hit man has left no ties to the victim, people may suspect something but prosecution would be unlikely.

The least likely scenario would be staging the victims to be some sort of “message” to the family. This would be a dead giveaway to who was behind it.

We can be sure that there is going to be an absolutely thorough investigation and nothing will be released until every detail is considered.

If this turns out to be a double murder it will be the biggest case in Canada and all of the stops will be pulled until it is solved.




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[cluciano63]

If determined a murder...I am curious what people think police might do to solve it they would not do for the average joe. I believe LE does its best by all murder victims, but jmo.

 

[JDG]

Suicide would NOT appeal to the Shermans, not at all. The Jewish traditions are to save life, not take it. Obviously, they understand that many suicides are the result of mental illnesses but to think that Barry would kill Honey for ANY reason, is absurd. They have both had bouts of cancer, had surgery and treatment and were, apparently, fine. The Jewish tradition is absolutely against suicide, the body belongs to G_d, so if one takes ones life, its like taking the authority away from G_d. Now, I know Barry stated he was an atheist and had no time for organized religion. He even wrote about it, argued about it. BUT, he was still raised in the Jewish traditions as were his children. Traditions run deep. IMO

I think its important to understand things in context, thats why I have posted this. IMO its vital to understand, no longer for Barry and Honey but for their family.

For the person who posted that maybe Honey had had a new, poor diagnosis and he had killed her to prevent suffering, I appreciate that that is your opinion. I have lost two very dear people to cancer, extremely poor diagnoses from the start and not once did anyone suggest we commit suicide to avoid what was ahead. Religion didn't enter into it in any way. We just decided, to make the most of every moment we had left. Every second became more precious, as we knew it was ending very soon. JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

But again note it says "police sources", that's not an official statement.

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Correct, the article says "police sources" say that Honey was killed elsewhere and moved to the pool.

But that statement is in MSM, which means we can discuss it. People don't have to believe the source and may prefer to wait for an official statement from a LE official on paper or on camera....but the rest of us, in the meantime, can discuss what the source said.

jmo

 

[human]

There are men who may be color blind or simply not into fashion.

I think Honey picked out his clothes because he had no clue and no interest

 

[Inthedetails]

Suicide would NOT appeal to the Shermans, not at all. The Jewish traditions are to save life, not take it. Obviously, they understand that many suicides are the result of mental illnesses but to think that Barry would kill Honey for ANY reason, is absurd. They have both had bouts of cancer, had surgery and treatment and were, apparently, fine. The Jewish tradition is absolutely against suicide, the body belongs to G_d, so if one takes ones life, its like taking the authority away from G_d. Now, I know Barry stated he was an atheist and had no time for organized religion. He even wrote about it, argued about it. BUT, he was still raised in the Jewish traditions as were his children. Traditions run deep. IMO

I think its important to understand things in context, thats why I have posted this. IMO its vital to understand, no longer for Barry and Honey but for their family.

For the person who posted that maybe Honey had had a new, poor diagnosis and he had killed her to prevent suffering, I appreciate that that is your opinion. I have lost two very dear people to cancer, extremely poor diagnoses from the start and not once did anyone suggest we commit suicide to avoid what was ahead. Religion didn't enter into it in any way. We just decided, to make the most of every moment we had left. Every second became more precious, as we knew it was ending very soon. JMO

I agree with you about traditions running deep, even if you have "left" the faith. I don't think suicide would be something that was on either of their minds.

But I also see BS as a practical man. If he killed Honey (by accident, in a rage, whatever), he might have realized that he would be convicted of the crime. Instead of going through the public disgrace, wasted resources, and likely prison sentence, he killed himself right then and there. His conviction in being practical and wise with resources (as well desire to avoid public shame) was stronger than his aversion to suicide, perhaps.

I don't know if that happened, but I'm keeping it as a theory, among other theories.

jmo from the fence

 

[human]

I think if he had dementia, someone would have noticed.

 

[Snoopster]

Not sure if anyone posted this earlier (apologies, if it has been), but here is a link to a video showing Honey getting ready for a dance competition. Barry does mention here arthritis and that he is surprised that she decided to do it. Honey looked bubbly, down to earth and healthy. (it was posted to YouTube in 2010).


https://youtu.be/q-WYZ6WOhBA

And here is a link to her performance...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_4IvxxyC-Y&ab_channel=BaycrestFoundation