Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[JayFriend]

Former FBI agent Brad Garret discusses the mystery surround the death of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman:

https://youtu.be/gy3jspjrWM8

Garrett is convince this was a double-murder and meant to 'make a statement'.

"This didn't happen just because somebody is upset. This happened for a reason. This is sort of a payback on something that occurred.
And that's what the police .. they have to get to whatever that is."

That's been exactly my assessment from the beginning. I don't know what our LE seeks to accomplish by obfuscating, saying there are no suspects. I'm sure the list is long and being pared down by the hour.

 

[BUF]

Don't know if this video from yesterday has been posted about the car being towed (SEVEN days after they were discovered) and investigators at the house...

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1290393

 

[Tighthead]

When you have a ton of money, there is a good tax reason why you put lots of money into life insurance. The policy portion might cost a few thousands a year, but if you are wealthy, you can invest many thousands of dollars a year, beyond the policy costs, in order to pass money to your beneficiaries. The payout to your beneficiaries is taxed differently, if at all, doesn't go through probate, which saves the beneficiaries a lot of money.

If there is a tax specialist, or a rich person on board, I'm sure he or she can explain it better.

There are some advanced insurance “products” that do offer tax advantages for the wealthy. There are also some drawbacks to them so they are usually only part of a strategy. Gifts and inheritances aren’t taxed, and probate fees are only 1.5 per cent. Death does trigger taxes though.

However, at the billionaire level, it’s reasonable to assume that the Shermans had very advanced tax and estate planning. Likely some inter vivos trusts and maybe some off shore sheltered money as well. While insurance may have been part of it, I can’t see it being an incentive for murder in view of the overall estate.

 

[human]

Originally Posted by andreww
I find it odd how frugal he was. Verging on mental illness if you ask me. There is nothing frugal about driving a car in to the ground. Breakdowns and repairs become frequent, costing valuable time. Time is money, and when you are as wealthy as Sherman, what does half a day in a repair shop cost you?




What's that saying.. something like.. "if you're rich, you're eccentric; if you're poor, you're just plain crazy".

JP Sears has a funny video on that. The rich are so rich they can pare down their living costs. Steve Jobs lived in a house with just about nothing.

The poor have no choice in living with nothing. Of course, the poor are not living in their sparse mansions or bringing their cars to their top mechanic who uses the best parts to fix the car

 

[dotr]

Obviously we do not know if there was a hit-man involved or not, but here is a bit about those hired to kill and the different categories they fall into according to a British study.
This snippet is about an undefinable " master " assassin, fwiw, speculation.
https://psmag.com/news/how-hitmen-operate-73430

How Do Hitmen Operate?

British criminologists claim that hitmen are more boring than we make them out to be, but their analysis can't account for the behavior of "Master" killers.

Ryan Jacobs
Jan 28, 2014

A "Master" doesn't commit the same mistakes as all the other killers do. They parachute into the selected area, kill, and depart immediately. The researchers speculate that they have paramilitary experience or a great deal of criminal expertise, and they do not live in the same geographic area as victims, which makes them less likely to be thwarted by local law enforcement intelligence. "These ‘Masters’, by virtue of evading justice, exist in the shadows – almost like ghosts – and it has, therefore, been impossible to build up any concrete picture of them as individuals, as opposed to the picture that we have been able to present of the types of hits that they might execute," they conclude.

But this idea that there are "ghost" killers out there negates the argument that there is any "mundane" average at all. To be able to determine what the true average looks like, the criminologists would have to capture every corner of the market, not just the narrow sample they're working with. The people doing the death-defying, under-the-radar, cloak-and-dagger, tactical operations are the same ones they have absolutely no intelligence on.
Fortunately, the researchers realize the constraints of their methodology, and acknowledge the possibility of something much darker lurking in their midst. "Indeed, might it be the case that there are some hitmen who are so adept as killers that the deaths of their victims does not even raise suspicion and are, instead, simply thought to be the result of natural causes?"

 

[otto]

These are the facts that we have. Although family and friends do not want to accept a murder-suicide, everything police are saying leads to no other conclusion.

"Instead of looking forward to socializing with Ms. Sherman on what was to be the first day of her vacation, friends of the couple are reeling – stunned that the pair were found hanging from a railing partly surrounding their basement lap pool on Friday.

Late Sunday, Toronto police said the couple both died from "ligature neck compression."

The homicide squad is now in charge of the investigation, although police were still classifying the deaths as "suspicious," not a homicide, in their Sunday night statement.
...

There was no sign of forced entry to the home and no note left behind to explain what had happened, the police source said."​

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...om-news-of-the-couples-death/article37362416/

"A police source told the Star that the couple was found together, by their indoor pool, hanging off a nearby structure in a semi-sitting position."​

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...ut-the-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman.html

"Sources say investigators found the Shermans, side by side, in their windowless pool room, each with a men’s leather belt wrapped around their necks and tied to the pool railing. Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.​

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

"Sources close to the case believe Honey may have been killed in a secondary location in the $6.9 million Old Colony Rd. house and then moved to the location where she was later found with her deceased husband.

“Forensics need to be done and post-mortems on the bodies, but at this stage it appears there was no forced entry and no evidence of anybody else in the house,” a police source said.​

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/much-loved-billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-north-york-mansion

"Although there have been some media reports about evidence, police have yet to confirm any specifics beyond cause of death. However, CBC News has learned that the Shermans were found by the pool in their basement and that investigators have found no security cameras inside or outside the home.
...

But Perry said the fact that police are not looking for suspects suggests investigators believe whatever happened to the Shermans was isolated to the house, between the two of them, and no one else was involved.

He said that while investigators must keep their minds wide open, from what police have so far indicated, a double murder is one of the explanations that likely can be excluded.

"It's [a] very unusual, very unusual way to commit homicide," he said. "Where you have this wonderful couple, standing members of the community, are somehow both dead from a ligature compression of the neck. It's bizarre."​

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-honey-sherman-homicide-deaths-1.4456170

 

[Satchie]

why not do it gently, where it could possibly be mistaken for 'double suicide', like... taking pills and going to sleep on a bed together.

Pills aren't a reliable form of suicide (easy to assume it is, because we hear about overdoses)

But many people, especially non users, quickly throw up the pills and survive, although usually rushed to hospital. See:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods

I don't believe Mr. Sherman had access to highly potent drugs as Chairman of a legal company (with many security checks): he couldn't order an employee to steal them or break into the production/distribution facilities, any missing drugs would trigger an investigation, same as any other theft. It would be extremely humiliating if he'd been caught pilfering drugs from his own company.

Hanging is the most common method of suicide in Canada.
https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/11696-eng.htmo

 

[Ashley96]

These are the facts that we have. Although family and friends do not want to accept a murder-suicide, everything police are saying leads to no other conclusion.

"Instead of looking forward to socializing with Ms. Sherman on what was to be the first day of her vacation, friends of the couple are reeling – stunned that the pair were found hanging from a railing partly surrounding their basement lap pool on Friday.

Late Sunday, Toronto police said the couple both died from "ligature neck compression."

The homicide squad is now in charge of the investigation, although police were still classifying the deaths as "suspicious," not a homicide, in their Sunday night statement.
...

There was no sign of forced entry to the home and no note left behind to explain what had happened, the police source said."​

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...om-news-of-the-couples-death/article37362416/

"A police source told the Star that the couple was found together, by their indoor pool, hanging off a nearby structure in a semi-sitting position."​

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...ut-the-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman.html

"Sources say investigators found the Shermans, side by side, in their windowless pool room, each with a men’s leather belt wrapped around their necks and tied to the pool railing. Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.​

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

"Sources close to the case believe Honey may have been killed in a secondary location in the $6.9 million Old Colony Rd. house and then moved to the location where she was later found with her deceased husband.

“Forensics need to be done and post-mortems on the bodies, but at this stage it appears there was no forced entry and no evidence of anybody else in the house,” a police source said.​

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/much-loved-billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-north-york-mansion

"Although there have been some media reports about evidence, police have yet to confirm any specifics beyond cause of death. However, CBC News has learned that the Shermans were found by the pool in their basement and that investigators have found no security cameras inside or outside the home.
...

But Perry said the fact that police are not looking for suspects suggests investigators believe whatever happened to the Shermans was isolated to the house, between the two of them, and no one else was involved.

He said that while investigators must keep their minds wide open, from what police have so far indicated, a double murder is one of the explanations that likely can be excluded.

"It's [a] very unusual, very unusual way to commit homicide," he said. "Where you have this wonderful couple, standing members of the community, are somehow both dead from a ligature compression of the neck. It's bizarre."​

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-honey-sherman-homicide-deaths-1.4456170

I agree...still a lot of unanswered questions as to why THAT way...and why at all...but, unbelievable as it may seem, it is simplest and most rational explanation given the reaction of police (no suspects) and early reports (assuming they were accurate).

I'm not going to even try to speculate how or why or the circumstances around HS's death, but the followup and timeline would seem to support a murder (accidental or otherwise) and suicide. MOO

So sad for those left behind

 

[human]

Why no note?

 

[Lilibet]

Why no note?

If I had caused the death of my mate and decided to commit a staged suicide, I would hope my kids would always think it was a double murder, even if evidence said otherwise. I wouldn’t want them to think it was a double suicide or murder/manslaughter suicide. A note would destroy the illusion.
JMO

 

[Satchie]

I agree...still a lot of unanswered questions as to why THAT way...and why at all...but, unbelievable as it may seem, it is simplest and most rational explanation given the reaction of police (no suspects) and early reports (assuming they were accurate).

I'm not going to even try to speculate how or why or the circumstances around HS's death, but the followup and timeline would seem to support a murder (accidental or otherwise) and suicide. MOO

So sad for those left behind

Yes, this situation reminds me of early scientists who came up with impossibly complicated theories to try to maintain the fiction that the sun revolves around the earth. Because they couldn't imagine the earth could possibly revolve around the sun, it made no sense and contradicted the bible.

Similarly for us, who live with the fiction that money buys happiness, can't believe a billionaire could be depressed and suicidal.

 

[Inthedetails]

I agree...still a lot of unanswered questions as to why THAT way...and why at all...but, unbelievable as it may seem, it is simplest and most rational explanation given the reaction of police (no suspects) and early reports (assuming they were accurate).

I'm not going to even try to speculate how or why or the circumstances around HS's death, but the followup and timeline would seem to support a murder (accidental or otherwise) and suicide. MOO

So sad for those left behind

One sticky point for me regarding murder-suicide theory is surely Barry would have realized mystery and unanswered questions would arise - so you would think he'd leave a note. Perhaps not an emotional note, as that might not be his style, but a simple statement so others wouldn't put time, effort, and resources into trying to figure out what happened.

He doesn't seem like the guy who would create drama, but would rather things be straightforward. Yet, this isn't straightforward and he didn't leave a note.

JMO, on the fence :fence:

 

[JDG]

The FACTS we have are now 5 days old. TPS isn't saying anything at all, not even leaks at this point (which is a good thing IMO) so I guess we are just going to have to wait and see how it plays out over the next week or so. IF it does turn out to be suicide/murder, there will be privacy issues and Im sure the family will ask that it not be presented. All we know for certain is that unless you are IN a marriage, you never really know what goes on behind closed doors. Even with people whom you've known for years and years.

I hope the family can eventually heal from this dreadful trauma but for now, its a day at a time. IMO

 

[Ashley96]

Why no note?

Thanks to movies and TV shows, many people believe that suicide notes are common, and that such notes provide answers to tormenting questions. The real world is quite different. Only 15 to 38% of people who die by suicide leave a note, according to results of 5 studies published in the last 10 or so years.

https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2014/04/23/the-unwritten-goodbye/

 

[Satchie]

Thanks to movies and TV shows, many people believe that suicide notes are common, and that such notes provide answers to tormenting questions. The real world is quite different. Only 15 to 38% of people who die by suicide leave a note, according to results of 5 studies published in the last 10 or so years.

https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2014/04/23/the-unwritten-goodbye/

I think if someone is capable of describing their thoughts and feelings in a note, they'd also potentially be able to talk out their troubles with someone (or even just to themselves) and be less likely to take their own life.

I think perhaps it's the people who can't express their hidden thoughts and feelings (eg teenage boys) who are at highest risk for suicide.

 

[zencompass]

The source leak from the police stating they viewed this as a "murder-suicide" was in the newspaper well before the post mortem examinations were conducted.

In my opinion, it was too early to even speculate this without forensics and the exams on the bodies.

The bodies offer clues during post mortem examinations.

 

[Jennifer17]

Thanks to movies and TV shows, many people believe that suicide notes are common, and that such notes provide answers to tormenting questions. The real world is quite different. Only 15 to 38% of people who die by suicide leave a note, according to results of 5 studies published in the last 10 or so years.

https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2014/04/23/the-unwritten-goodbye/

I have personally known three people who have died by suicide. Two of them had life situations that kind of explained them, but the other, who was a successful and (we thought) happy, obstetrician surprised and shocked everyone who knew him, including his wife and family. None left notes.

 

[Ice Tea]

"... both had jackets that were pulled "behind their backs" and rolled down over their arms."

Wouldn't the jackets fall off if their hands were not tied behind them?

Sounds like they had to have their wrists tied together before hanging, and/or it was meant as some kind of restraint to keep them from struggling (with their arms/hands behind their back)?

If you consider the suicide angle -- why would they bother pulling their own jackets down behind themselves to restrain themselves from what they wanted to do in the first place?

So then they affixed the (?belt?) around their necks first, then pulled back their coats behind them, and then jumped or stepped to hang themselves?

Does not add up.

 

[zencompass]

Toronto Police Services press release: (Dec. 17):

http://torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/39905

TPS have not directly stated :

1. men's belts were used
2. jackets pulled back over their arms
3. Honey Sherman was killed in a secondary area
4. Security camera turned off in pool area

The above four points were printed in the Toronto Sun from a "source".

This could all be true - or none of it. Depending on the source's viability and whether or not the "source" attained correct or wrong information.

 

[musicaljoke]

There are some advanced insurance “products” that do offer tax advantages for the wealthy. There are also some drawbacks to them so they are usually only part of a strategy. Gifts and inheritances aren’t taxed, and probate fees are only 1.5 per cent. Death does trigger taxes though.

However, at the billionaire level, it’s reasonable to assume that the Shermans had very advanced tax and estate planning. Likely some inter vivos trusts and maybe some off shore sheltered money as well. While insurance may have been part of it, I can’t see it being an incentive for murder in view of the overall estate.

You are likely right, but I wouldn't completely rule out an insurance policy as an incentive for murder. It might be an obvious place to look if someone is named as a beneficiary, particularly since there is a tax incentive to name beneficiaries instead of having the insurance payout go back into the estate.