Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[Snoop Sister]

He is not a suspect or a named person of interest.

How do we know that?

 

[Lilibet]

How do we know that?

Because it hasn’t been announced in MSM that anyone has been named a suspect or person of interest.

 

[kiwi50]

Think I might have to jump off the fence soon, I think I could name about 10 dodgy people who might prefer him dead, and that’s not counting those he himself mentioned years ago.
Maybe he was calling in some debts I’m amazed how much he lent to one pretty dubious people.

 

[Grace.212]

Satement from the Family re the Canadian Award

“To receive this honour posthumously speaks volumes about our father and confirms what we have always known, he was a true humanitarian and a great Canadian,” the statement from Sherman’s family reads. “We take comfort knowing that his countless contributions to healthcare and philanthropy have been memorialized in such an enduring manner.”

https://www.cp24.com/news/family-of-barry-sherman-say-order-of-canada-appointment-speaks-volumes-about-father-1.3740301

 

[dotr]

Published on Dec 21, 2017
The funeral of Barry and Honey Sherman was attended by thousands. The Apotex founder and his wife were found dead in their home nearly a week ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgwhgZOmomg

 

[DarkSkink]

I would want to see the strength of the evidence they had that Barry murdered Honey, and it wasn't someone else.

You missed the point. I asked what evidence would convince you it was a murder suicide.

 

[dotr]

You missed the point. I asked what evidence would convince you it was a murder suicide.

Question not posed to me, but what might convince me that it was suicide, is if some kind of cloth/buffer was put between the neck and the ligature at the adam's apple, suggesting an element of concern for discomfort.
Or if something major and universally repulsive was about to be revealed about BS, beyond the usual business of wheeling, dealing and litigation.
imo, speculation, thoughts for now.

 

[DarkSkink]

But it does. Are you not the person who posted about the children being 'out of order' (paraphrasing here) 'crying' etc because they weren't happy with the police? That is disdain for the family. Their objection, as I understand it, is that they were not notified of the deaths.....they found out via the media.

I share that upset, as I was not notified of my fathers death, years ago. I heard from one of his neighbours, after the police had left his home!!
So much for police notifying 'next of kin'. I was my fathers next of kin and they never called me. BUT, I did call them.....let me tell you.

LE, I'm sure, doesn't always have immediate access to next of kin contact information, especially if they have yet to even identify the deceased. Then, once they contact the next of kin, they have to be absolutely sure they have the right person, lest they give some inappropriate and erroneous bad news to the wrong person. It's not always as easy as it sounds, nor as quick as some think it should be.

The family didn't like hearing about the murder-suicide angle. I can't think of many families that have said they enjoyed having their personal tragedies aired out in public. Typically, when families complain about their privacy in these situations, they don't get nationwide coverage. I'm not sure disdain is the right word. Pointing out a class based privilege makes some uncomfortable, but it shouldn't be taken so personally that criticising one's alleged "disdain" is done with such disdain.

If you think the family isn't receiving special treatment, then explain why. Make a counter argument.

 

[DarkSkink]

Question not posed to me, but what might convince me that it was suicide, is if some kind of cloth/buffer was put between the neck and the ligature at the adam's apple, suggesting an element of concern for discomfort.
Or if something major and universally repulsive was about to be revealed about BS, beyond the usual business of wheeling, dealing and litigation.
imo, speculation, thoughts for now.

Thanks for the theory!

I was targeting murder-suicide evidence directly. For those that don't buy the murder-suicide angle, I was trying to get them to put themselves into the mind of the "police source" that was there, that saw the scene first hand, and spoke to the press about it looking like a murder-suicide.

As someone with policing experience, what would you have to see to make you think murder-suicide above all other possibilities?

 

[DarkSkink]

I'm getting the impression that we can't believe anything attributed to "police sources" unless the names of the officers are mentioned, and we can't believe named homicide detectives if they don't repeat their statements frequently. It seems like this discussion is about doubting everything we know in order to believe something that has not been said. This approach to understanding what really happened is new to me.

Technically, two days after the police source said they were looking at the murder-suicide angle, a police source then said the homicide unit took the lead on the case.

 

[Lilibet]

Thanks for the theory!

I was targeting murder-suicide evidence directly. For those that don't buy the murder-suicide angle, I was trying to get them to put themselves into the mind of the "police source" that was there, that saw the scene first hand, and spoke to the press about it looking like a murder-suicide.

As someone with policing experience, what would you have to see to make you think murder-suicide above all other possibilities?

I do buy the murder-suicide angle from my position on the fence, but I’ll try this exercise. I imagine that when LE initially saw the scene at the pool, they may have thought at first glance it was a double suicide. I don’t think my immediate reaction to seeing two people hanging would be to think double murder. But if there was any evidence that Honey had been dragged to that position, I’d think twice about double suicide, and veer toward murder-suicide, especially if Barry did not appear to have been moved there.

From there, a search of the house revealing signs that either a murder or accident had happened would put murder-suicide to the forefront for me. Add no sign of forced entry or obvious evidence of someone else being present to the mix and that would strengthen my opinion. Going further, observing lividity and rigor mortis could confirm it even more. All that together would make me put murder-suicide forth to the press as a distinct possibility.

But I’m glad they’re investigating further.

Climbing back up on the fence now. :fence:

 

[human]

Why do you suppose LE said there was no intruder before they got any security info?

 

[thepinkdragon]

Thanks for the theory!

I was targeting murder-suicide evidence directly. For those that don't buy the murder-suicide angle, I was trying to get them to put themselves into the mind of the "police source" that was there, that saw the scene first hand, and spoke to the press about it looking like a murder-suicide.

As someone with policing experience, what would you have to see to make you think murder-suicide above all other possibilities?

My problem with the term “police source” as a professionally trained journalist is that anyone who claims an affiliation with the police, such as a family member of an officer, can technically be called a “police source”. No one said that source saw anything. Is it ethical? No. Is it legal? In most countries, yes. Hence why I don’t give credence to unnamed sources that are unwilling to give a statement on the record when referring to an investigation.


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[Satchie]

Thanks for the theory!

I was targeting murder-suicide evidence directly. For those that don't buy the murder-suicide angle, I was trying to get them to put themselves into the mind of the "police source" that was there, that saw the scene first hand, and spoke to the press about it looking like a murder-suicide.

As someone with policing experience, what would you have to see to make you think murder-suicide above all other possibilities?

I don't think it would be just police, it would likely have included a detailed medical examination of the bodies before they were moved. I think medical forensics are the one thing it's impossible to fake or stage. Bodies show the signs of what happened to them before, during and after death.

For example, if someone was already dead when they were placed in a position, I believe that's apparent to a medical examiner, who would also recognise the signs that someone had died in the position they were found in.

So, assuming the medical examiner says one person appears to have died there, though the other probably did not. Then police might try to envision how it would be possible to murder someone in the circumstance where they were found. It wasn't as though they were caught by surprise, and quickly overpowered, as typically happens, using a gun, knife or strangulation.

This was a fiddly process: forcing the person downstairs, seated in a particular location, waiting while things are attached. Are there signs of a life or death struggle on the body, clothes, or scene? Were they sufficiently restrained to have been powerless and unable to free themselves of their restraints, ie hands and feet?

I could go on, but my key point is that it's the forensics of the scene, not theories, that drive the initial direction of the investigation.

 

[Satchie]

Why do you suppose LE said there was no intruder before they got any security info?

Why do you suppose they said there was no intruder?

We did not observe any signs of forced entry into the building and so at this point indications are that we have no outstanding suspect to be going after,”‘ Det. Brandon Price told reporters

http://toronto.citynews.ca/2017/12/15/deaths-barry-sherman-home/

Why do you conclude this statement means 'There was no intruder'? Why do you try to hint at sinister police motives? What are your motives?

 

[Snoop Sister]

Because it hasn’t been announced in MSM that anyone has been named a suspect or person of interest.

My point exactly. The cousins and a hit man etc were discussed but none are a named suspect or person of interest. The poster just wanted to know if there was any more info on the personal trainer.

 

[DarkSkink]

Why do you suppose LE said there was no intruder before they got any security info?

No signs of forced entry doesn't necessarily mean no intruder.

It just means there were no obvious signs someone broke in. They could have been let in under the guise of selling chocolate covered almonds.

 

[abstr]

I posted about this shortly after the I bodies were found and think it would be useful to re-post about it now. Here is the key part of the children's initial public statement: "Our parents shared an enthusiasm for life and commitment to their family and community totally inconsistent with the rumors regrettably circulated in the media as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths."

As I said in my initial post, what struck me what was not in that statement -- no mention of their parents love for each other. That omission was glaring to me and made me think that the children did not believe that all was well in the marriage.

I read it differently. I took it to say they loved each other and shared values and interests. So sad whatever happened.

 

[DarkSkink]

I don't think it would be just police, it would likely have included a detailed medical examination of the bodies before they were moved. I think medical forensics are the one thing it's impossible to fake or stage. Bodies show the signs of what happened to them before, during and after death.

For example, if someone was already dead when they were placed in a position, I believe that's apparent to a medical examiner, who would also recognise the signs that someone had died in the position they were found in.

So, assuming the medical examiner says one person appears to have died there, though the other probably did not. Then police might try to envision how it would be possible to murder someone in the circumstance where they were found. It wasn't as though they were caught by surprise, and quickly overpowered, as typically happens, using a gun, knife or strangulation.

This was a fiddly process: forcing the person downstairs, seated in a particular location, waiting while things are attached. Are there signs of a life or death struggle on the body, clothes, or scene? Were they sufficiently restrained to have been powerless and unable to free themselves of their restraints, ie hands and feet?

I could go on, but my key point is that it's the forensics of the scene, not theories, that drive the initial direction of the investigation.

I don't recall saying forensics weren't allowed. I asked quite directly about "what evidence you would need to think it was a murder-suicide."

Medical Examiners don't typically search the premises for other evidence. Medical Examiners don't typically speak to the press as a police source on their theory of what happened. Medical Examiners should actually not let the other evidence or theories of a case create bias in their analysis.

I'm not sure what you're answering, but if you go back and read the quote you replied to, there might have been a misinterpretation.

 

[thepinkdragon]

<modsnip>

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. As I said to Otto, I agree to disagree.


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