Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[PennyBugsDad]

How does a man of so much fortune have 0 security cameras?

 

[nuff]

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...-honey-sherman-were-murdered-sources-say.html

People providing information for this story are not identified as they were not authorized to discuss the case.

I wonder who released this information and for what purpose. Who is the source that gave this information out about the autopsy. IMO until a legitimate source is identified, it is rumour. Just like the murder-suicide is rumour as well.

.

The purpose is pretty obvious IMO - to force the police to classify this as homicide and start working with the private investigators (and likely because the family want the truth in the public domain.) The unnamed source has to be someone Kevin Donovan trusts, likely Brian Greenspan whose own credibility is on the line. It is well beyond a rumour.

 

[nuff]

I would guess they brought the wrist binding/handcuffs whatever with them and to leave them behind would provide opportunity for recognition or tracing the manufacturers and location of the perpetrators, as well as other traces such as DNA/fibres etc. They would undo them after strangling them. The coats back on sleeves means to me that they wanted to leave ASAP so unbound their wrists and left their arms restrained by coats in case they regained consciousness.

It's possible the killer(s) pushed their coats and sleeves down behind them, tied their hands, strangled them, and positioned the bodies, and then removed the ties just to confuse matters and/or to complete the staging. What we may never know is why not just use a simpler means of killing, and why the staging.

 

[Grey-St]

If the hands are bound on death, why remove? If you undo, to make victim do something, like put a belt on her own neck, then you lose control. Unless you are pointing a gun at them.
So if hitman has a gun, why strangle them? Noise?
Do hired hitmen use anything but guns these days? And if not strangled by belt ,but a ligature, brings the whole thingback to the staging.....wth does it mean???? Someone alive knows:thinking:

I think they were bound before they were killed, to help control their struggle or fight. Once they were staged (after they were killed), the perpetrator(s) snipped the ties, in order to confuse the family, LE, and the public with a murder-suicide possibility. Same reason for strangulation instead of firearms. Jmo.

 

[Tortoise]

It's possible the killer(s) pushed their coats and sleeves down behind them, tied their hands, strangled them, and positioned the bodies, and then removed the ties just to confuse matters and/or to complete the staging. What we may never know is why not just use a simpler means of killing, and why the staging.

I'm not so confused by the staging. This spot was the furthest place in the property away from being heard by anyone. Presuming they weren't also gagged. The rail provides a manageable height for someone not having to hoist up two heavy bodies to a noose.

If I had received those property details and I was so minded I think it would be the place I would choose too. It almost offers up the possibility to someone planning it.

I think they wanted to achieve the appearance of suicides and had no idea that double suicide by hanging was such a rarity.

IMO.

 

[Twinkle]

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-billionaire-shermans-slain-by-contract-killers

WARMINGTON: Billionaire Shermans slain by contract killers?

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[Tighthead]

Greenspan being shocked that this information is leaked is like the famous line in Casablanca about gambling.

Regardless of the veracity of the information, I’m certain these “leaks” are strategic.

 

[pamelado2]

Who specifically made up their mind and how do you know?

I read that the police were exploring the possibility of a murder suicide, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t considering other possibilities or had come to a conclusion.

I don't understand your question.

Also, I never thought the police thought it was a murder-suicide. When the "source" said it was thought to be a murder-suicide, I thought it was way too early to declare that and that the few details we did know didn't point to that. I thought it was a big mouth that just liked attention.
You may not have noticed but I posted repeatedly that the only statement from LE was when they said the deaths were suspicious and every angle was being investigated.

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[AddyFinch]

Maybe Mr Donovan should be issue a subpena to divulge source?
Maybe killers are posing as the “unamed sources” to add mayhem to their madness?

 

[Snoop Sister]

rbbm.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rivate-investigators-believe-source-1.4496686

Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said.


OMG if this is true, how horrific. So sad....

 

[JayFriend]

I haven’t kept up with this thread. Has the police confirmed that it is a double murder?


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

Police have been tight lipped on the case since their original theory it's a murder suicide, then backtracking to "suspicious death". So that official theory still stands. However, since the independent investigation started there have been leaks suggesting a double murder. We don't know if the leaks have come from within LE or the independent investigators.

 

[Tortoise]

Whoever leaked this had either been at the scene or had access to the police photographs, since they claim to have knowledge of the blood on the tiles, the blood on HS' clothing and the manner in which and method by which the bodies were positioned and belts were tied etc. Also knowledge of what HS was wearing. It seems unlikely the bodies were released for the second autopsy in clothing, and I'm not sure either that their clothing would have been released by the police, or that police shared info with the PIs yet, although perhaps reviewing photos and clothing is part of the autopsy process.

 

[tarabull]

Police have been tight lipped on the case since their original theory it's a murder suicide, then backtracking to "suspicious death". So that official theory still stands. However, since the independent investigation started there have been leaks suggesting a double murder. We don't know if the leaks have come from within LE or the independent investigators.

Just jumping of your post JayFriend....
Tight lipped AND short staffed....FWIW.

:thinking:

 

[JDG]

CP24 says the police are still stating that the Sherman deaths are considered to be 'suspicious', after the article in the Toronto Star. IMO

So, no change from a TPS pov. Greenspan feels obligated to make some sort of statement IMO

He is certainly not taking the TPS down a different path. 'Suspicious' deaths.

 

[ABro]

This is what I have been saying and thinking forever! I have always questioned the cause of death as ligature neck compression. That's essentially strangulation with a ligature. Asphyxiation is often the term used when it's a hanging. So I've literally been trying to make sense of how BS could have strangled himself with a belt/ligature, without the use of hanging. Now with the information from the pathologist suggesting their wrists were bound, but then released, I can hardly entertain the idea...

Ligature neck compression means strangulation. That's all. Many people who die by hanging are strangled thus they die of ligature neck compression. That phrasing alone is not going to tell you if they were killed by hanging or by another type of strangulation. You need additional information.

As for BS killing himself by strangulation, many people hang themselves from low heights and in a seated position. This is far from unheard of. Just do a Google search and you will find this information quite easily.

There are really no answers to be had in the details that have been released and leaked so far. They can be used to support both murder suicide and double homicide.

 

[JDG]

The purpose is pretty obvious IMO - to force the police to classify this as homicide and start working with the private investigators (and likely because the family want the truth in the public domain.) The unnamed source has to be someone Kevin Donovan trusts, likely Brian Greenspan whose own credibility is on the line. It is well beyond a rumour.

Its a rumour at this point. TPS has reiterated that the Shermans deaths are 'suspicious' deaths. Nothing has changed. Doubt Greenspan has even seen the autopsy reports. IMO
AFAIK, one cannot 'force' (no pun intended) the police to classify a crime as anything other than the evidence tells them. IMO

I do understand, completely, that the family is hoping for a M/M statement but so far, it is not forthcoming. Just rumours. IMO

 

[BUF]

Here's the CBC video on this...

https://youtu.be/8RZTgzqfQMY

 

[Grey-St]

Ligature neck compression means strangulation. That's all. Many people who die by hanging are strangled thus they die of ligature neck compression. That phrasing alone is not going to tell you if they were killed by hanging or by another type of strangulation. You need additional information.

As for BS killing himself by strangulation, many people hang themselves from low heights and in a seated position. This is far from unheard of. Just do a Google search and you will find this information quite easily.

There are really no answers to be had in the details that have been released and leaked so far. They can be used to support both murder suicide and double homicide.

I've just found that in suicide by hanging cases, the cause of death is often classified as asphyxiation by hanging. I'm not saying that the COD classification can directly tell us what happened here, of course you need more information. It was just something I always questioned.

And oh yes, we've been all over how you can commit suicide by hanging in a seated position, lol.

 

[nuff]

I've just found that in suicide by hanging cases, the cause of death is often classified as asphyxiation by hanging. I'm not saying that the COD classification can directly tell us what happened here, of course you need more information. It was just something I always questioned.

And oh yes, we've been all over how you can commit suicide by hanging in a seated position, lol.

The article stated that they were not hung, but that the belts were wrapped around the neck. I'm assuming the pathologist could tell this by the nature of the neck injuries. Neck compression is not synonymous with asphyxiation.

 

[Tricia]

Do not bring politics, the Clinton's, the Illuminati, or the tooth fairy into this case please unless there is solid proof.

Thank you,
Tricia