Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[MistyWaters]

Recently there was an interesting example of police strategy and why, during the course of an investigation, it’s difficult for the general public to draw any conclusions.

I’m not for a moment suggesting this case below bears any resemblance to the Shermans - it’s just an great example of how LE “plays their cards close to their chest” and how, until the culprit was actually arrested, it appeared LE was nowhere near solving the case.

A brief summary...
A son-in law finds a 78 woman dead in her home, obvious signs a murder has occured. An unknown door-to-door salesman in the neighbourhood is mentioned as a possible suspect. 3 months later the daughter makes a tearful public plea as LE suggested it might lead to additional tips. LE then inform the public they wish to speak to a woman known to wear a pink coat and attend gambler anonymous meetings. Very bizarre.

But shortly thereafter LE announces murder charges against who.....the same daughter. Then we learn she was a suspect from the beginning as she left a bloody fingerprint at the scene. The daughter had power of attorney and had mortgaged her mother’s home without her mother knowing due to a gambling addiction. Her mother learned about the mortgage from a 3rd party, then called her daughter to confront her. The person LE wanted to speak to seemed to fit her description.

The general public had no idea the daughter was ever a suspect until charges were laid, although I’m sure people close to the family obviously had strong suspicions. She admitted she was guilty of the murder as it appeared everything was closing in on her all at the same time. IMO LE sometimes seek the path where culprits are allowed to attain an air of confidence and believe they’ve got away with their crimes for a brief while, before they close in on the suspect. Especially if LE believes it will lead to a confession.

Lisa Freihaut receives life sentence for killing her mother

 

[MistyWaters]

In the Sherman case because of the broad range of possibilities, might’ve it been an intentional TPS tactic to slowly release or leak information to encourage people to come forward “no way was this a murder/suicide, you need to take a good look at (whoever)!”?

In a round about way, that could be a intentional method of acquiring tips without suspects knowing for certain a homicide investigation was taking place. 127 interviews by Jan 26th, that’s seems a sign of significant investigative activity to me.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

That was my impression too... although I'm having difficulty picturing how the belt could be tied around the necks, AND the other end also tied to the railings.. without some help?? Can anyone help with that??

The loop can only be made at one end. If the sling (belt led through the buckle) was around the neck of a person, then you can't somehow tie the other end to the railing without some cord or similar (cord led through the last belt hole?). I think, to knot the belt around the railing would be impossible. IMO and with lack of phantasy.

 

[nuff]

Was BS’s name permanently tarnished by the sequence of events that have occured to date? Me personally, I don’t think it was.

I agree, and I have to say it troubles me that some people seem to be anxious to cling to the notion that BS was guilty of murder. (Because he was rich & successful? Because he was eccentric, outspoken, introverted, and obviously brilliant?)

 

[deugirtni]

Possibly the staging resembled this -
Why are teens choking themselves to death?

From the sounds of this (below), it seems that the buckle was fastening the belt around the neck tightly, and so that would only leave the 'free end' of the belt to tie onto the railing somehow, which doesn't seem possible in my mind.. so that is why I asked if anyone could understand how the straight end of the belt could have been tied to the railing. If it was tied in a knot, it seems like it would be too short to make that knot, loop around the railing, and then have it go through the buckle around their necks? I know I have worded this terribly.

"The belts were around the neck, with the end of the belt through the buckle and pulled tight. The free end of each belt was then looped or tied around a low railing that surrounds the pool."
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star

 

[deugirtni]

My apologies, I misunderstood your post to question why it would’ve taken a month for the Coroner to come to the same conclusion as the family’s hired team. My point was that we don’t that it took a month, only that the public was informed on Jan 26th. I think we can agree that one of the roles of police forces in Canada is solving crime but for the most part, keeping the general public informed during the course of an investigation is not something they’re obliged to do, so we can’t know what we don’t know. That includes who was the anonymous source for The Star articles.

You wrote
“....I'm confident that if the coroner had determined it was double homicide after the first pathologist did the autopsy, that it would have been announced, because obviously it meant a lot to the family to not have BS's name continue to be tarnished with the public continuing to believe (via newspaper reports) that he murdered his wife...”

Was BS’s name permanently tarnished by the sequence of events that have occured to date? Me personally, I don’t think it was.

In my opinion? Absolutely. Look around even here on WS, there are some who still adhere to the m/s theory, even though police have publicly and officially announced differently. Anytime a person's name is dragged through the mud via MSM like that, I believe it is a terrible burden to have to correct it, and that it will never be as if it never happened in the first place. The fact that it took a month, rather than a week, adds to that, imho.

 

[tmar]

So assuming that both of the pathologists were excellent, qualified, and experienced (we know that the hired one is, and no reason to believe that the one that did the autopsy is NOT).. and assuming that the coroner is also excellent, qualified, and experienced, then why do you figure it took a month to come to that same conclusion?
My guess is that LE were leaning in a certain direction, while pathologist#1's findings may have left room for doubt on either suicide or murder... and in the event that there are 2 possibilities, I believe the coroner must find that the manner was 'undetermined'.. which would, I'm sure, be considered totally unacceptable, can you imagine if that had been the determination?? Not good, imho.
Then suddenly, after almost a month, police FINALLY, after a big newspaper piece, actually spoke to pathologist#2.. and only days later, police held their press conference with the determination of double homicide..
This is the part that for me anyway, seems very coincidental in terms of the timing, but that is just my opinion (and apparently also that of some others who have written articles??).

It takes ages for some medical tests to come through: histopathology on tissues, drug screens, whether more extensive investigations are required following initial results etc.
Can be complex and time consuming.
These all lead to expert's conclusions.
These experts require laboratory testing, to aid in their determinations of 'cause of death' etc.
Even if appears 'clearly staged, or clearly murder', the initial cause requires to be fully investigated.

 

[deugirtni]

Recently there was an interesting example of police strategy and why, during the course of an investigation, it’s difficult for the general public to draw any conclusions.

I’m not for a moment suggesting this case below bears any resemblance to the Shermans - it’s just an great example of how LE “plays their cards close to their chest” and how, until the culprit was actually arrested, it appeared LE was nowhere near solving the case.

A brief summary...
A son-in law finds a 78 woman dead in her home, obvious signs a murder has occured. An unknown door-to-door salesman in the neighbourhood is mentioned as a possible suspect. 3 months later the daughter makes a tearful public plea as LE suggested it might lead to additional tips. LE then inform the public they wish to speak to a woman known to wear a pink coat and attend gambler anonymous meetings. Very bizarre.

But shortly thereafter LE announces murder charges against who.....the same daughter. Then we learn she was a suspect from the beginning as she left a bloody fingerprint at the scene. The daughter had power of attorney and had mortgaged her mother’s home without her mother knowing due to a gambling addiction. Her mother learned about the mortgage from a 3rd party, then called her daughter to confront her. The person LE wanted to speak to seemed to fit her description.

The general public had no idea the daughter was ever a suspect until charges were laid, although I’m sure people close to the family obviously had strong suspicions. She admitted she was guilty of the murder as it appeared everything was closing in on her all at the same time. IMO LE sometimes seek the path where culprits are allowed to attain an air of confidence and believe they’ve got away with their crimes for a brief while, before they close in on the suspect. Especially if LE believes it will lead to a confession.

Lisa Freihaut receives life sentence for killing her mother

I agree completely that what you have mentioned can happen in many instances.. however the difference in *this* case, is that there were only 3 options - double homicide, double suicide, or Barry killed his wife and then himself. It was all over the news and into the general public's perception, through MSM, that LE's theory was murder/suicide, which could ONLY mean that Barry killed his wife. What a terrible thing to have going around the world about a prominent international businessman, don't you agree?

Police witnessed what was going on in the press, and the perceptions in place, and yet they did nothing to set anything straight. They didn't hold a press conference to inform the public that those perceptions and newspaper reports were all wrong, and that in fact they required some 6 weeks to make a determination (which, imho, is highly unlikely to begin with). So for an entire month, the public was left believing that police believed that Barry had done this.

In just looking around WS, it seems that people in general seem to put a lot of weight in what police are thinking, in fact I find that on most threads, people seem to believe police are clairvoyants and that they know what happened and whodunnit, even without evidence, or they seem to believe that police *know*, but perhaps don't have *enough* evidence to lay charges/take to trial, etc... that they are withholding critical information from the public while they gather up the final clues/evidence.

I'm not sure what happened in this case, whether police really couldn't figure it out for 6 entire weeks and couldn't be bothered to lay to rest any damning media reports in the meantime, or whether they actually *were* working under the m/s theory and *that* is why they didn't bother to change public perception. I'm just saying that the *timing* of the announcement of double homicide seems *very* coincidental to when police were finally bothered to interview the second pathologist, which only seems to have occurred once 'M/M' was splashed on the front pages. Rightly or wrongly, *that* is the perception that I am now left with. But to each their own opinion, I'm not insisting that everyone agree with me.

 

[deugirtni]

In the Sherman case because of the broad range of possibilities, might’ve it been an intentional TPS tactic to slowly release or leak information to encourage people to come forward “no way was this a murder/suicide, you need to take a good look at (whoever)!”?

In a round about way, that could be a intentional method of acquiring tips without suspects knowing for certain a homicide investigation was taking place. 127 interviews by Jan 26th, that’s seems a sign of significant investigative activity to me.

In a 'normal' situation, that would be a great strategy, but in *this* particular case, it was at the expense of a prominent international businessman's reputation. jmo.

 

[deugirtni]

The loop can only be made at one end. If the sling (belt led through the buckle) was around the neck of a person, then you can't somehow tie the other end to the railing without some cord or similar (cord led through the last belt hole?). I think, to knot the belt around the railing would be impossible. IMO and with lack of phantasy.

Yes, that is what I was saying also, I'm getting caught up on posts, sorry!! The only way I can see for both to occur, would be for a knot to have been tied in the straight end of the belt, but assuming a man's belt wouldn't have been long enough to do that?

 

[deugirtni]

It takes ages for some medical tests to come through: histopathology on tissues, drug screens, whether more extensive investigations are required following initial results etc.
Can be complex and time consuming.
These all lead to expert's conclusions.
These experts require laboratory testing, to aid in their determinations of 'cause of death' etc.
Even if appears 'clearly staged, or clearly murder', the initial cause requires to be fully investigated.

Yes, however LE did little to nothing to sway public opinion away from the m/s theory, and therefore that Barry had killed his wife, for the entire time, until late January, which was something like 6 weeks?? (Which public perception was gathered via police in the first place, I might add. I believe it was day#1 they were saying they were seeking no suspect(s) and that the community didn't need to be concerned about their safety.) LE knew from autopsies that the couple had died by 'neck compression' and not drugs. That's fine if it took them 6 weeks to figure it out, but in the meantime, a bit of fixing of public perception that BS was a murderer, which was all over the news, would have been prudent until such time, imho.

 

[ldlager]

That was my impression too... although I'm having difficulty picturing how the belt could be tied around the necks, AND the other end also tied to the railings.. without some help?? Can anyone help with that??

Sorry for the detail/imagery I am about to present.
There are at least a couple of options. 1) Fasten the belt around the railing just like you would do around your waist. The belt loop would be hanging down from the railing. Insert the head/neck through the loop, with the belt under the chin, and let the body weight be held up by the belt. Rotate the belt a couple of times if the loop was too big and the head slipped out. 2) Imagine the neck is like a person's waist. Fasten the belt around the neck, and pull it tight, just like you would do around your waist. That leavesa long piece of the belt, which is then looped around the railing, or tied to the railing.

 

[ldlager]

Yes, that is what I was saying also, I'm getting caught up on posts, sorry!! The only way I can see for both to occur, would be for a knot to have been tied in the straight end of the belt, but assuming a man's belt wouldn't have been long enough to do that?

We know from a recent news article that Barry's head was very close to the railing (sorry, can't locate the link at the moment). That is one of the reasons behind the PI's concluding it was a murder- the head was too close to the railing for him to have hung himself (that's what the article said anyways). This setup (head close to the railing) leaves a lot of belt material to tie around the railing. Plus Barry was a large man, I assume if the belts were his, they were long enough.

 

[ldlager]

My apologies, I misunderstood your post to question why it would’ve taken a month for the Coroner to come to the same conclusion as the family’s hired team. My point was that we don’t that it took a month, only that the public was informed on Jan 26th. I think we can agree that one of the roles of police forces in Canada is solving crime but for the most part, keeping the general public informed during the course of an investigation is not something they’re obliged to do, so we can’t know what we don’t know. That includes who was the anonymous source for The Star articles.

You wrote
“....I'm confident that if the coroner had determined it was double homicide after the first pathologist did the autopsy, that it would have been announced, because obviously it meant a lot to the family to not have BS's name continue to be tarnished with the public continuing to believe (via newspaper reports) that he murdered his wife...”

Was BS’s name permanently tarnished by the sequence of events that have occured to date? Me personally, I don’t think it was.

We also don't know that the family wasn't told almost immediately (after their public pronouncement and/or afterthe first autopsy) that LE in fact suspected a M/M.

 

[casesensitive]

We know from a recent news article that Barry's head was very close to the railing (sorry, can't locate the link at the moment). That is one of the reasons behind the PI's concluding it was a murder- the head was too close to the railing for him to have hung himself (that's what the article said anyways). This setup (head close to the railing) leaves a lot of belt material to tie around the railing. Plus Barry was a large man, I assume if the belts were his, they were long enough.

I'd like to see that article Idlager if you have time (I couldn't find it). TIA The position that the bodies were in (almost sitting, backs to the rail and legs straight out in front of them) doesn't fit a suicide imho. From what I've garnered in various online readings, BS would have to put the belt around his neck, attach it to the rail and lean FORWARD in order to cut off his airway. The pressure from the belt has to be on the front of the neck, and not too high up under the jaw. I can't see how this is possible from a sitting position--I imagine that he would have to be on his knees leaning forward with his legs straight to the back of him.

 

[2Hope4]

Google how to cinch a saddle. Diagrams will show how a belt can be tied to anything with just the loose end. It's the same manner a strap of leather, much like a belt, can be 'cinched' to fasten the saddle to a horse.

 

[ldlager]

I'd like to see that article Idlager if you have time (I couldn't find it). TIA The position that the bodies were in (almost sitting, backs to the rail and legs straight out in front of them) doesn't fit a suicide imho. From what I've garnered in various online readings, BS would have to put the belt around his neck, attach it to the rail and lean FORWARD in order to cut off his airway. The pressure from the belt has to be on the front of the neck, and not too high up under the jaw. I can't see how this is possible from a sitting position--I imagine that he would have to be on his knees leaning forward with his legs straight to the back of him.

I will try and find the article. I'm sure it was in the past 10 days. If anyone knows the article I am referring to and post the link in the interim, thanks! Its the one that talked about BS head being close to the railing, and his feet very straight, indicating no signs of thrashing or struggle. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

 

[casesensitive]

I will try and find the article. I'm sure it was in the past 10 days. If anyone knows the article I am referring to and post the link in the interim, thanks! Its the one that talked about BS head being close to the railing, and his feet very straight, indicating no signs of thrashing or struggle. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Yes, I read that also. I can't find it online, maybe it's on the thread. I'll look later.

 

[ldlager]

I will try and find the article. I'm sure it was in the past 10 days. If anyone knows the article I am referring to and post the link in the interim, thanks! Its the one that talked about BS head being close to the railing, and his feet very straight, indicating no signs of thrashing or struggle. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Found it- WSJ. Originally posted by Deugirtni.
After a Billionaire and His Wife Are Found Dead, Their Children Try to Crack the Case

 

[ldlager]

Found it- WSJ. Originally posted by Deugirtni.
After a Billionaire and His Wife Are Found Dead, Their Children Try to Crack the Case

From the same article: (RBaUBM) "... Two days later, Ms. Gomes told a packed room of reporters at police headquarters that the killings weren’t a double suicide or a murder-suicide. The couple had, in fact, been strangled by one or more perpetrators. “The Shermans were targeted,” Ms. Gomes said.

People familiar with the investigation said that conclusion was reached not long before the news conference. The precise reasons are unclear.