Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[hudunit]

Whose belts were used?Was Honey wearing a jacket,because only Barry was mentioned to have his jacket pulled down.Did the architect sense anything at the meeting.Was Barry's jacket a suit jacket?There was no mention of outdoor clothing or boots.

 

[MistyWaters]

Whose belts were used?Was Honey wearing a jacket,because only Barry was mentioned to have his jacket pulled down.Did the architect sense anything at the meeting.Was Barry's jacket a suit jacket?There was no mention of outdoor clothing or boots.

At the beginning of the press conference Greenspan was emphatic in stating they had no intention of talking about anything that might jeopradize the investigation. So other than the crossed legs and glasses, they shared no other details.

 

[matou]

Crossed legs at ankle? Try standing up from that position. This position lowers the body but doesn't lift it. Looks more like suicide to me.

 

[MistyWaters]

Crossed legs at ankle? Try standing up from that position. This position lowers the body but doesn't lift it. Looks more like suicide to me.

The pool railing was reportedly only 3 1/2’ high. What connection is there to standing?

 

[deugirtni]

I just wanted to point out the way in which a different police force dealt with 'the unknown' in the suspicious and sudden deaths of a married couple while they were in their home alone in the middle of the night.. LE also undoubtedly wanted to assure the neighbours and community that there was not some wild murderous arsonist on the loose killing random homeowners. With little knowledge, evidence and facts during the first few hours, this case could conceivably also have been, at first glance, potentially considered as a possible murder/suicide (it's the first thing that went through *my* mind when I read that the husband had escaped and went to a neighbour's house, even though burned) - and yet police made no such innuendos, nor any innuendos of a double suicide, and nor even innuendos of a double homicide.

In fact, they kept their opinions to themselves until they had collected enough information to actually *form* an intelligent opinion based on facts, handling it professionally, as they should have. I also notice this police service is constantly asking for people to call in with any information or/and any video recordings, which seems to contrast the Sherman case, wherein it appears to me that police think they already know it all, since it has been reported they didn't bother to interview people for weeks, failed to take prints, etc. Did I hear correctly during the PC that there are NINE exterior doors? Yet in the first few hours, they had thoroughly checked ALL of them and were able to say with confidence that NONE of them had been compromised? They didn't talk to the people who found the body, or even wait for a determination from the coroner's office before announcing there WAS no suspect at large? - to me, that feels like complete arrogance on the part of TPS, who come across as seeming to believe they are just that good, that their gut instinct at first glance should rule the day AND the ongoing direction of the investigation, who cares about doing a thorough job with the actual evidence! Hamilton police were also the ones quick enough on the ball to treat Tim Bosma's disappearance as worthy of investigation, after the same killer had already killed twice before without detection by TPS, even though evidence was in their face. Perhaps TPS should take some notes from HPS? imo.:

Carla and Alan Rutherford, Dundas ON, July 9, 2018, (jurisdiction of Hamilton Police Service) - fire ripped through this couple's home while they were sleeping; the husband made it out (with 80% of his body burned) and over to a neighbour's home to get them to call 911, before passing out on the lawn and was later rushed to hospital where he later died; the wife I believe, died on her way to hospital:

Still no answers tonight in what caused the house fire early yesterday morning that killed a Dundas couple in their 60’s. Hamilton Police are calling it suspicious, while people who knew the couple are in shock.
....
Police have been talking to people in the neighbourhood, and say they’re for looking for surveillance video and any information that could help their investigation.

No answers for deadly Dundas fire - CHCH

The fire is being investigated by homicide detectives as "a precautionary measure," said Staff Sgt. Steve Bereziuk, of the major crime unit.

"We don't know what caused the fire," he said. "Out of an abundance of caution we're treating it as suspicious until we know what caused the fire."
....
Anyone with information is asked to contact Det. Ben Adams at 905-546-3836.

Dundas couple killed in house fire were ‘wonderful’ neighbours

The investigation into a deadly fire that killed a well-liked Dundas couple is expected to be lengthy, with no answers yet as to what caused the destructive blaze.
....
Carla Rutherford, 65, was pronounced dead at the scene after being pulled from her home by firefighters. Her husband, Alan Rutherford, 64, was badly burned but managed to get outside. He died hours later in hospital Monday afternoon.

"These are two people that were loving and caring people, they lived a quiet life, they were great citizens of this community," Hamilton police Staff Sgt. Steve Bereziuk of the major crime unit said, calling the deaths "tragic."

The blaze, which appears to have begun at the back of the home, is being treated as suspicious.

"Until we know what caused it, we have to treat it as suspicious," Bereziuk said.

Police, who are leading the investigation, are waiting for the OFM to determine the cause of the fire.

Forensic officers have photographed the scene and detectives continue to speak with family, neighbours and anyone else who comes forward. Police are also asking anyone with surveillance video in the area to take a look and call police if they see anything out of the ordinary.

"This is a terrible tragedy in the neighbourhood, losing two very good people," Bereziuk said. "People are naturally concerned."

Anyone with information is asked to contact Det. Ben Adams at 905-546-3836.

Fatal Dundas fire investigation expected to be lengthy

Carla and Alan Rutherford died July 9 after a fire was deliberately set at their Greening Court rancher. The fast-moving fire began in their bedroom while the couple slept and quickly grew to flames shooting above the treeline.

"We're working toward clearing the family ... we have not cleared everyone," Det. Sgt. Steve Bereziuk of the major crime unit said this week. "The entire family remains co-operative."
....
While any possible motive for the fire remain uncertain, police are clear that they do not believe there is threat to the general public.

Bereziuk has said from the beginning this will likely be a long investigation, with the Office of the Fire Marshal (OFM) report still likely a month away.

Police were able to gather enough initial evidence to say the fire was arson and declare the deaths homicide. But that OFM report should give a better understanding of exactly how the fire began and spread.

However it began, and whatever accelerant was used, the fire was fast. The couple were asleep in their beds when it began in their room, with Carla not able to escape and Alan, despite burns to 80 per cent of his body, somehow mustering enough strength to make it outside to a neighbour's door where he collapsed. He died later in hospital.

Police also continue to examine surveillance video collected from businesses and residences in the neighbourhood off York Road. The Rutherford home backs onto Grove Cemetery.

At the house Friday the property appears untouched and there was no one doing work on the home. Police and the fire marshal are finished with the scene. Anyone with information is asked to contact Det. Ben Adams at 905-546-3836.

Probe into double fatal Dundas fire continues

Dundas fire deaths ruled homicide
Police treated fire as criminal investigation from the start

Hamilton police have officially determined the double-fatality fire at 8 Greening Crt. in Dundas Monday was a homicide.

"After four days of investigation at the fire scene, the Ontario Fire Marshal and the Hamilton Police Service Major Crime Unit have determined the fire was deliberately set. Carla and Alan Rutherford were victims of homicide," police stated in a press release.
....
Police are asking for anyone with information into this homicide or anyone who knew the victims to contact Det. Ben Adams at 905-546-3836.

To provide information anonymously, call Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-8477 or submit your anonymous tips online at www.crimestoppershamilton.com.

Police quickly took the lead in a criminal investigation a few hours after the early morning fire on Monday, July 9.

An Ontario Fire Marshal investigator at the site Monday afternoon said he could not confirm any details.

“If it weren’t a criminal investigation, I’d tell you everything I know,” said Dave Emberlin."

Dundas fire deaths ruled homicide

Fatal Dundas fire now believed to be double homicide
A fire that killed a retired Dundas couple early Monday morning is now considered a double homicide by Hamilton police.

The blaze at 8 Greening Ct. was deliberately set, according to Staff Sgt. Steve Bereziuk of Hamilton police’s major crime unit.

“These were innocent victims who would have suffered sheer terror,” Bereziuk said during a brief news conference Friday afternoon at Hamilton police’s Central station.

Bereziuk declined to speak about a motive or potential suspects.

“The route, naturally, is to look at people closest to the family,” Bereziuk said, adding that the family has been co-operative so far.

“This is likely to be a very lengthy investigation,” he added.
....
Bereziuk declined to answer questions about the cause of the fire or other specific details, such as whether the house had functioning smoke detectors, because they related to evidence in the case.

The fire scene was held for approximately four days while an initial investigation was undertaken by police and the Office of the Fire Marshal.

Bereziuk said evidence collected at the scene led to the police’s belief the couple was killed deliberately.

“We believe this was targeted,” Bereziuk said.

Hamilton police are asking anyone with information about the fire or anyone who knew the victims to contact Det. Ben Adams at (905) 546-3836. Information can also be provided anonymously through Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-8477.

Police are also asking anyone with surveillance video in the area to check and call police if they see anything out of the ordinary.

Fatal Dundas fire now believed to be double homicide | The Star

 

[otto]

I don’t think it’s known that BSs eyeglasses “stayed on”. It was mentioned by Greenspan as a red flag, a possible indication of staging, in that he was wearing his glasses, his legs straight and crossed at the ankle. IMO It was used as an example as to why the visual appearance of his body should’ve raised questions about death by suicide due to the way in which it was found. Staging could involve the killer placing the glasses back on the face of the victim, placing the body in a position that didn’t support the act of suicide.

Assuming this was staged, how did the person responsible know that he had many hours in the house to murder and stage the wife, then the same with the husband? There were housekeepers, family and realtors who had access to the house. Anyone could have walked in at any time to find the suspect carefully manipulating the bodies. What sort of hitman takes that kind of risk?

 

[deugirtni]

Assuming this was staged, how did the person responsible know that he had many hours in the house to murder and stage the wife, then the same with the husband? There were housekeepers, family and realtors who had access to the house. Anyone could have walked in at any time to find the suspect carefully manipulating the bodies. What sort of hitman takes that kind of risk?

Perhaps an unprofessional one with a personal vendetta and a years-long obsession with following the family from a distance?

 

[otto]

Perhaps an unprofessional one with a personal vendetta and a years-long obsession with following the family from a distance?

Even an unprofessional killer knows that the more time spent with first one dead person, and then two dead people, drastically increases the probability of being caught when so many people have access to the house.

It's one thing for someone like Ted Bundy to stage a body after rape and murder, something altogether different for someone to spend hours staging bodies in a private residence where the key to the house is hanging outside the front door.

 

[MistyWaters]

Even an unprofessional killer knows that the more time spent with first one dead person, and then two dead people, drastically increases the probability of being caught when so many people have access to the house.

It's one thing for someone like Ted Bundy to stage a body after rape and murder, something altogether different for someone to spend hours staging bodies in a private residence where the key to the house is hanging outside the front door.

Considering Barry didn’t leave Apotex until after 8pm on that Wednesday night, I’d think the likelihood of family members, realtors or house keepers to arrive any time later than that and into the middle of the night would be very remote. I don’t think it would require hours to stage the bodies but even if it did, the perp would’ve had all night to do so.

It was mentioned in the recent Bloomberg article that the housekeeping was arranged to occur semi-weekly. As is common with the habits of most people, if the home had been watched even by driveby, their weekly routine could’ve been observed in advance by observing vehicles parked in the driveway.

As the bodies were not discovered the next day , a Thursday, not until late Friday morning I think is also an indication the chances of the perp being caught in the act were quite low.

 

[ilovewings]

Family offers $10million Canadian reward for info in death of billionaire and his wife | Daily Mail Online

apparently the police are dunderheads in this case- described as "clueless", which is why the family is offering such a huge reward.

 

[Shlock Homes]

I've been reading up on the information for this case for a while. One thing I find perplexing is how the police couldn't tell it was a murder. If Barry Sherman wanted to kill himself, he would have used another method, like taking one of the many pharmaceuticals his company makes.
It seems to me the killers wanted it to be found and characterized as a murder. They could have been shot, but that probably would have been too impersonal. Whoever did it had an axe to grind with them. Otherwise, why leave them in their coats and shoes or boots? If the independent autopsy was correct, they weren't killed immediately. The binding of their hands meant whoever killed them was telling them why this was being done. It's possible they were being interrogated, but nothing was mentioned of any other marks on their bodies.
This crime will probably go unsolved, those who did it knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Perhaps an unprofessional one with a personal vendetta and a years-long obsession with following the family from a distance?

The killer(s) were thorough. They didn't leave much forensic evidence, so I highly doubt they were unprofessional.

 

[Satchie]

In that recent case of the murdered mother and children in the US, her best friend knew something was very wrong because she didn't receive any texts that first morning. Her alleged murderer, her husband, should have understood that would raise huge red flags, but it didn't occur to him, he seems to have thought he had more time.

So just because no one interrupted/ discovered this murder doesn't mean the murderer knew for sure that would happen. Maybe he was just lucky.

 

[otto]

Considering Barry didn’t leave Apotex until after 8pm on that Wednesday night, I’d think the likelihood of family members, realtors or house keepers to arrive any time later than that and into the middle of the night would be very remote. I don’t think it would require hours to stage the bodies but even if it did, the perp would’ve had all night to do so.

It was mentioned in the recent Bloomberg article that the housekeeping was arranged to occur semi-weekly. As is common with the habits of most people, if the home had been watched even by driveby, their weekly routine could’ve been observed in advance by observing vehicles parked in the driveway.

As the bodies were not discovered the next day , a Thursday, not until late Friday morning I think is also an indication the chances of the perp being caught in the act were quite low.

We know that the alleged staging took hours simply because evidence supports that the wife was murdered first. This evidence wouldn't exist if it was 30 minutes earlier. It had to be hours earlier.

It doesn't matter when someone entered the house, the fact remains that many people could have entered the house earlier, as early as 9PM on the night of the deaths.

Who murders one person in their own home, another person hours later, and then stages the scene with the two people appearing to be relaxing in front of the pool? Doesn't it seem odd that the hitman had no objective other than to stage dead bodies? The couple wasn't tortured, there were no usual money transactions, and nothing about the deaths is consistent with the murders of a wealthy couple. Even the idea that harm to the wife was used to leverage the husband is off the table because she died well before the husband.

 

[otto]

Family offers $10million Canadian reward for info in death of billionaire and his wife | Daily Mail Online

apparently the police are dunderheads in this case- described as "clueless", which is why the family is offering such a huge reward.

The family is doing a great job of pretending that the real killer is still on the loose. Everyone knows that the Sherman family has a long history of doing everything possible to avoid paying debt. Even if a lot of crazies come forward and waste police time and resources chasing false leads, the family is never going to give anyone 10 million dollars for information about the two deaths.

 

[otto]

The killer(s) were thorough. They didn't leave much forensic evidence, so I highly doubt they were unprofessional.

The alleged killers were so thorough there's no evidence that they exist. The hitman or the non-hitman spent hours staging the bodies as though they were relaxing in front of the pool without leaving so much as a hair or skin cell on the bodies.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Toronto real estate agent reveals new details in killings of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman
Toronto real estate agent reveals new details in killings of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman | CBC News

I had heard on the radio this 'tour' happened the next day (Thursday), but then the bodies weren't reported until Friday. But I don't see this indicated in the CBC story. Does anyone know the timeline for this new revelation?

 

[Satchie]

The killer(s) were thorough. They didn't leave much forensic evidence, so I highly doubt they were unprofessional.

Yes, except most 'professionals' seem to favour something quick and then they're gone. Honestly, I'm picturing a scene where a hitman says: "you want me to do what?? Can't I just shoot the guy?

 

[MistyWaters]

We know that the alleged staging took hours simply because evidence supports that the wife was murdered first. This evidence wouldn't exist if it was 30 minutes earlier. It had to be hours earlier.

It doesn't matter when someone entered the house, the fact remains that many people could have entered the house earlier, as early as 9PM on the night of the deaths.

Who murders one person in their own home, another person hours later, and then stages the scene with the two people appearing to be relaxing in front of the pool? Doesn't it seem odd that the hitman had no objective other than to stage dead bodies? The couple wasn't tortured, there were no usual money transactions, and nothing about the deaths is consistent with the murders of a wealthy couple. Even the idea that harm to the wife was used to leverage the husband is off the table because she died well before the husband.

What time entry was gained or how it was gained hasn’t been stated. Other than what time each left Apotex, we don’t know what time they arrived home. It’s only assumed Honey went directly home after 5pm but did she?

The double homicide has been described as “personal”, “intimate”, the bodies placed in such a way to display “humiliation” of them.

Revenge and hatred is a known motive of homicide cases, far more common than rubbery.

I agree with you, it’s unlikely a professional hitman would waste time in staging bodies after death.

 

[JDG]

We know that the alleged staging took hours simply because evidence supports that the wife was murdered first. This evidence wouldn't exist if it was 30 minutes earlier. It had to be hours earlier.

It doesn't matter when someone entered the house, the fact remains that many people could have entered the house earlier, as early as 9PM on the night of the deaths.

Who murders one person in their own home, another person hours later, and then stages the scene with the two people appearing to be relaxing in front of the pool? Doesn't it seem odd that the hitman had no objective other than to stage dead bodies? The couple wasn't tortured, there were no usual money transactions, and nothing about the deaths is consistent with the murders of a wealthy couple. Even the idea that harm to the wife was used to leverage the husband is off the table because she died well before the husband.

Otto, we do not KNOW any of this as evidence. It's all hearsay and rumour.

The only evidence we have from TPS is cause of death.

It's very important to remember that we really 'know' nothing much about this case. Lots of rumours and hearsay though.