CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #23

[Lexiintoronto]

• The strangulation was by ligature, so no hand pressure or injury to hands likely. Less chance of hyoid bone breakage I believe when even pressure by ligature.
• Payment to assassins' by crypto-coin or other 'dark money' methods would be extremely difficult to track.
• Setting up the staging for a fake suicide takes time and effort. I believe there are indications that the criminals were in the home for over an hour. Did they believe that the staging would slow the police up or was there another purpose?
• My feeling was the staging was done for another purpose rather than to confuse and delay the police investigation and that could point to the the perpetrators identity.

MOO

• My feeling was the staging was done for another purpose rather than to confuse and delay the police investigation and that could point to the the perpetrators identity.

I had wondered what would have happened if Honey had been found deceased on the floor upstairs and Barry was located dead by the garage door. Two obvious victims. My guess is the arc of the media coverage against Barry and the initial investigation against him would have been very different. More sympathetic and less intrusive.

Hi, what do you think the purpose was?

I think one possible purpose was to hide the bodies longer by keeping them in the least-used room.

I think another possible purpose was some kind of message or story or closure. What that would be, I don’t know. Some sort of sense of ceremony for the killer(s)? Maybe even amusement for the killer(s)? A wry inside “joke”? A punishment? Putting them on “display” to humiliate or shame them? Tying their death forever to the ugly pool they never used? Showing some sort of dignity vs leaving them in a heap? — who knows.

The staging was not a small amount of work. This suggests it was important to the killer(s). I believe it had meaning to the killers(s). Even if tongue in cheek. This suggests to me at some level the killer(s) cared about the Shermans. And/or had some contrition about leaving them unceremoniously dead on the floor. MOO.

You didn’t direct the question towards me, but it looks like the killer may have had more respect for Barry based on the staging. Maybe another possibility is it was to make him look like an unbothered murderer?

Yes, this is something that puzzles me. The sheer amount of money in the circle that surrounds this crime makes me think that it would not have been so hard to hide a hired killer's fee in some kind of shell transaction. On the other hand, it would be harder to hide the money given that IMO I do not think the murders were planned a long time in advance. I think it was just a few weeks.

Another theory I had is that the Shermans held a large amount of cash at their house. I'm sure both were conscious of the dangers of anti-Semitism and Honey had direct experience of persecution and wartime flight, so that might make a person inclined to store cash. Plus, Honey's family, like many new immigrants of any ethnicity, may have believed in keeping cash on hand. If we believe the murder to be an inside job the person who commissioned the murder may have told the perpetrator how to access this cash.

Although the Shermans weren't particularly concerned about security a wall safe seems like a possibility, based on the report of the urban explorer about holes punched in the wall.

Cash or diamonds, imo. Barry was involved in at least three businesses that dealt with loose diamonds.

 

[Clark2002]

This may sound crazy and far fetched but what if the killer(s) were in the house earlier than everyone thinks. Is it possible that they had been hiding out in the basement for days? The basement was huge and had tons of places to hide. I’m assuming that not every closet would be opened up during showings of the house. It could have happened early enough that any cameras nearby no longer had the footage of someone entering the property. I’m not sure how far back the police looked on any cameras but it’s possible that any footage would be written over before the police acknowledged it being murder. This person could have had enough food for a week and I’m assuming that the house was empty a lot because of Barry working long hours and Honey being busy. The housekeeper said that she hadn’t cleaned the pool room in 3 weeks, I’m guessing the rest of the basement wasn’t touched either.

 

[FromGermany1]

This may sound crazy and far fetched but what if the killer(s) were in the house earlier than everyone thinks. Is it possible that they had been hiding out in the basement for days? The basement was huge and had tons of places to hide. I’m assuming that not every closet would be opened up during showings of the house. It could have happened early enough that any cameras nearby no longer had the footage of someone entering the property. I’m not sure how far back the police looked on any cameras but it’s possible that any footage would be written over before the police acknowledged it being murder. This person could have had enough food for a week and I’m assuming that the house was empty a lot because of Barry working long hours and Honey being busy. The housekeeper said that she hadn’t cleaned the pool room in 3 weeks, I’m guessing the rest of the basement wasn’t touched either.

Afaik, there were showings of the home by agents and also some craftsmen doing their work. I can't imagine, the killer could have hidden in the basement.

 

[RHR]

Hi, what do you think the purpose was?

I think one possible purpose was to hide the bodies longer by keeping them in the least-used room.

I think another possible purpose was some kind of message or story or closure. What that would be, I don’t know. Some sort of sense of ceremony for the killer(s)? Maybe even amusement for the killer(s)? A wry inside “joke”? A punishment? Putting them on “display” to humiliate or shame them? Tying their death forever to the ugly pool they never used? Showing some sort of dignity vs leaving them in a heap? — who knows.

The staging was not a small amount of work. This suggests it was important to the killer(s). I believe it had meaning to the killers(s). Even if tongue in cheek. This suggests to me at some level the killer(s) cared about the Shermans. And/or had some contrition about leaving them unceremoniously dead on the floor. MOO.

I agree, putting them in the pool area would be the best way to keep them hidden for longer. I have always thought the staging was a ploy. Make the scene look like they are sending a message. Maybe to some owner of another generic drug company or someone else Barry upset... You and your family could be next! Make it look like a professional hit. All of the detective shows, fiction and reality tell us that they look at family first. The staging would not suggest,(imo), that family would be involved.
I am certain the killer/killers didn't for a second think the police would announce murder, suicide.

 

[RHR]

This may sound crazy and far fetched but what if the killer(s) were in the house earlier than everyone thinks. Is it possible that they had been hiding out in the basement for days? The basement was huge and had tons of places to hide. I’m assuming that not every closet would be opened up during showings of the house. It could have happened early enough that any cameras nearby no longer had the footage of someone entering the property. I’m not sure how far back the police looked on any cameras but it’s possible that any footage would be written over before the police acknowledged it being murder. This person could have had enough food for a week and I’m assuming that the house was empty a lot because of Barry working long hours and Honey being busy. The housekeeper said that she hadn’t cleaned the pool room in 3 weeks, I’m guessing the rest of the basement wasn’t touched either.

That thought has often gone through my head.

 

[RHR]

Yes, this is something that puzzles me. The sheer amount of money in the circle that surrounds this crime makes me think that it would not have been so hard to hide a hired killer's fee in some kind of shell transaction. On the other hand, it would be harder to hide the money given that IMO I do not think the murders were planned a long time in advance. I think it was just a few weeks.

Another theory I had is that the Shermans held a large amount of cash at their house. I'm sure both were conscious of the dangers of anti-Semitism and Honey had direct experience of persecution and wartime flight, so that might make a person inclined to store cash. Plus, Honey's family, like many new immigrants of any ethnicity, may have believed in keeping cash on hand. If we believe the murder to be an inside job the person who commissioned the murder may have told the perpetrator how to access this cash.

Although the Shermans weren't particularly concerned about security a wall safe seems like a possibility, based on the report of the urban explorer about holes punched in the wall.

But if they had large amounts of cash in the house why would Honey stop at the bank machine to take out the cash that night?

 

[WINDSOR]

FPoulet said..........

"Hi, what do you think the purpose was?"
To make a statement on behalf of someone. There is much talk about the seldom used pool, however when the kids were home, maybe the pool was used often, especially by the children and their friends.
Maybe something significant to someone happened in the pool room and the parents chose not to be present. The message 'now you are present'

'I think one possible purpose was to hide the bodies longer by keeping them in the least-used room'.
I do not think hiding the bodies was the goal, as in a very large house like this one, I am sure there would be much better places to hide the bodies. Garage, closets, under beds, storage room are just some that come to mind.

 

[hexicon]

But if they had large amounts of cash in the house why would Honey stop at the bank machine to take out the cash that night?

Because the cash (assuming the stash existed) was bundled in the safe for emergencies and they weren't in the habit of touching it, IMO.

(Edited to clarify that the existence of the cash stash is hypothetical, not a fact.)

Speaking for myself, I have cash in my safe at home. (Much, much less than the Shermans would have had access to!) I still go to the ATM both to have pocket cash and if I need to make a specific cash purchase. The cash in in the safe is there to be preserved for emergencies and isn't for ordinary day-to-day spending.

 

[dotr]

'I think one possible purpose was to hide the bodies longer by keeping them in the least-used room'.
I do not think hiding the bodies was the goal, as in a very large house like this one, I am sure there would be much better places to hide the bodies. Garage, closets, under beds, storage room are just some that come to mind.

rbsbm.
Under the pool cover.... but then that would not be nearly as dramatic, traumatic, confusing and uber creepy, for the people who discover them. Maybe that was the point? imo, speculation.

An ‘urban explorer’ entered Barry and Honey Sherman’s home before demolition and saw papers that ‘looked like evidence’

One Saturday afternoon in May of 2019, when nobody was looking, a man slipped under the garage door of the late Barry and Honey Sherman’s home.

www.toronto.com

 

[Lexiintoronto]

This may sound crazy and far fetched but what if the killer(s) were in the house earlier than everyone thinks. Is it possible that they had been hiding out in the basement for days? The basement was huge and had tons of places to hide. I’m assuming that not every closet would be opened up during showings of the house. It could have happened early enough that any cameras nearby no longer had the footage of someone entering the property. I’m not sure how far back the police looked on any cameras but it’s possible that any footage would be written over before the police acknowledged it being murder. This person could have had enough food for a week and I’m assuming that the house was empty a lot because of Barry working long hours and Honey being busy. The housekeeper said that she hadn’t cleaned the pool room in 3 weeks, I’m guessing the rest of the basement wasn’t touched either.

I’ve thought that as well and their personal trainer mentioned something similar. She said the basement closets were so big and full of stuff that someone could easily hide there. There was also a nanny’s suite down there complete with a kitchen. So possibly it was used as extra space for food storage.

If KD’s sources are correct about the WM’s timeline he arrived at the home about 20 minutes after Honey arrived and maybe ten minutes before Barry did. It’s such a tight schedule. If another person was in the home it might make more sense.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Always. When I’m looking for something I find something else. There now are transcripts of KD’s podcast. It looks like they were autogenerated so there are typos.

KD on driving to Jonathon’s home to meet him:
“Of all the thoughts running through my head, the most unsettling is that Jonathan's sister thinks he had something to do with their parents' murder. Am I concerned for my safety? Well, not enough to stay home. I follow the road over rolling hills into a clearing. On one side there's an older two-story log cabin-style house, beside it a modern three-car garage. I turn around and park. You never know when you're going to have to make a quick exit. There's a dusting of snow in my footprints of the first of the day as I walk up to the front door landing.Peering through a window, I see no sign of life. As I lift my hand to knock, a latch clicks behind me. A man steps out of the side door of the garage. He's wearing jeans, a hoodie, and a plaid coat.
[…]
‘At some point in early 2019, something happened. I still don't understand what happened to Alex, but she obviously started to believe I was implicated.’ I tell Jonathan that my information, and I have to protect my sources here, is that his sister Alexandra is scared of him. He confirms this. I ask why? ‘ I tell Jonathan, I've heard that story too, that something happened while Alexandra andJonathan were at his cottage in late 2018, something said that made her suspicious of her brother. I know from a source that Alexandra has gone to the police with her suspicions. Now the police wouldn't talk to me about this by the way. On the gun issue, I ask him, do you own any firearms? Jonathan gets up and walks around and points to a box of what I think are called clay pigeons sitting on a shelf. He says, yes, he owns guns, old-fashioned cowboy-style lever-action guns,about 15 of them. He says he uses them for target shooting, and he says Alexander's husband Brad, they are now separated, has similar guns. He tells me it bothers him that his sister with ink he had something to do with the murders. We used to be tight, he says.”

Suspicion | The Billionaire Murders: The hunt for the killers of Honey and Barry Sherman

Suspicion is the Toronto Star’s investigative true crime podcast. Season 2 brings “The Billionaire Murders: The hunt for the killers of Honey and Barry Sherman,” an 8-part podcast – with biweekly bonus, behind-the-scenes episodes – probing the strange case of the famous Toronto couple who were...

podscripts.co

 

[Cedars]

I’ve thought that as well and their personal trainer mentioned something similar. She said the basement closets were so big and full of stuff that someone could easily hide there. There was also a nanny’s suite down there complete with a kitchen. So possibly it was used as extra space for food storage.

If KD’s sources are correct about the WM’s timeline he arrived at the home about 20 minutes after Honey arrived and maybe ten minutes before Barry did. It’s such a tight schedule. If another person was in the home it might make more sense.

But that person would have had to leave at some point.

Police knew and complained, right away (do I have to go back and find the quote, it was right after the murders?), that the Sherman's didn't have cameras. So, in spite of popular opinion, IMO police were not so wrapped up in M-S theories that they failed to look at camera footage right away.

It is just police procedure 101: determine which are the best cameras, all around the home, so that anyone entering or exiting the home would have to pass by one of them (unless they were smuggled in and later out, in the backseat of a car, or were, themselves, one of the neighbours.)

Then they go through each vantage point, very systematically and exhaustively, to determine whether anyone entered that perimeter before the murders, and didn't leave until after the murders.

IMO, this is how police ID'd WM.

IMO, police didn't just randomly look at camera footage, happen to notice a 'suspicious' looking person, then focus on that person.. IMO they would have been very systematic, because that's how you extract evidence which supplies proof, which can lead to charges, which can lead to convictions in court.

IMO, WM was not just unlucky to chose a route that could be traced to the house. I don't personally believe there was another route into or out of the house that police failed to find a camera for, and that some other person could have used.

People/neighbours got all excited about video footage of someone arriving at the house after the murder and trying to get in, and why didn't police care, etc. (IMO, that person contacted police when the bodies were discovered so that's why police didn't investigate.) But also, LE were focussed on who entered the property before the murder, and left after the murder. Someone arriving and leaving after the murder does not identify them as the murderer.

JMO

 

[dotr]

But that person would have had to leave at some point.

Police knew and complained, right away (do I have to go back and find the quote, it was right after the murders?), that the Sherman's didn't have cameras. So, in spite of popular opinion, IMO police were not so wrapped up in M-S theories that they failed to look at camera footage right away.

It is just police procedure 101: determine which are the best cameras, all around the home, so that anyone entering or exiting the home would have to pass by one of them (unless they were smuggled in and later out, in the backseat of a car, or were, themselves, one of the neighbours.)

Then they go through each vantage point, very systematically and exhaustively, to determine whether anyone entered that perimeter before the murders, and didn't leave until after the murders.

IMO, this is how police ID'd WM.

IMO, police didn't just randomly look at camera footage, happen to notice a 'suspicious' looking person, then focus on that person.. IMO they would have been very systematic, because that's how you extract evidence which supplies proof, which can lead to charges, which can lead to convictions in court.

IMO, WM was not just unlucky to chose a route that could be traced to the house. I don't personally believe there was another route into or out of the house that police failed to find a camera for, and that some other person could have used.

People/neighbours got all excited about video footage of someone arriving at the house after the murder and trying to get in, and why didn't police care, etc. (IMO, that person contacted police when the bodies were discovered so that's why police didn't investigate.) But also, they were focussed on who entered the property before the murder, and left after the murder. Someone arriving and leaving after the murder does not identify them as the murderer.

JMO

Murder, Money and the Battle for a Pharmaceutical Empire

Almost six years after Barry and Honey Sherman became two of the wealthiest people ever to be murdered, police still haven’t identified the killers. But along the way, they’ve turned up no shortage of potential suspects—and a bareknuckle family drama.

www.bloomberg.com

'Early in their investigation, officers had canvassed the Shermans' neighborhood for surveillance footage taken around the time of the murders. (The couple had no working cameras on their own property.)Aug 3, 2023''

 

[Lexiintoronto]

But that person would have had to leave at some point.

Police knew and complained, right away (do I have to go back and find the quote, it was right after the murders?), that the Sherman's didn't have cameras. So, in spite of popular opinion, IMO police were not so wrapped up in M-S theories that they failed to look at camera footage right away.

It is just police procedure 101: determine which are the best cameras, all around the home, so that anyone entering or exiting the home would have to pass by one of them (unless they were smuggled in and later out, in the backseat of a car, or something.)

Then they go through each vantage point, very systematically and exhaustively, to determine whether anyone entered that perimeter before the murders, and didn't leave until after the murders.

IMO, this is how police ID'd WM.

IMO, police didn't just randomly look at camera footage, happen to notice a 'suspicious' looking person, then focus on that person.. IMO they would have been very systematic, because that's how you extract evidence which supplies proof, which can lead to charges, which can lead to convictions in court.

IMO, WM was not just unlucky to chose a route that could be traced to the house. I don't personally believe there was another route into or out of the house that police failed to find a camera for, and that some other person could have used.

ETA: unless, I suppose, it was actually on of the neighbours themselves...

People/neighbours got all excited about video footage of someone arriving at the house after the murder and trying to get in, and why didn't police care, etc. (IMO, that person contacted police when the bodies were discovered so that's why police didn't investigate.) But also, they were focussed on who entered the property before the murder, and left after the murder. Someone arriving and leaving after the murder does not identify them as the murderer.

JMO

It’s just a suggestion. KD now has said the police also believe the WM was an accomplice or had one. So how did the other person arrive and leave, if they’re correct?

The camera angles of the neighbouring cctv cameras had blind spots. The WM apparently walked into one when he got close to the house. Maybe if there was another person, it was more important to hide their arrival and departure. Meanwhile the WM took a long walk in and out of a neighbourhood with many cameras watching him.

 

[Cedars]

The camera angles of the neighbouring cctv cameras had blind spots. The WM apparently walked into one when he got close to the house. Maybe if there was another person, it was more important to hide their arrival and departure. Meanwhile the WM took a long walk in and out of a neighbourhood with many cameras watching him.

It was only a blind spot in the sense that he couldn't be directly seen entering the Sherman's property.

There are two kinds of proof, direct and inferential. Direct proof would be footage showing him walking onto the property, even footage of him entering into the home, even more direct would be footage of him actually killing the Sherman's, his face completely recognizable, perhaps holding up his passport for clear view, etc, etc, to absurd lengths.

IMO, most crimes are solved by inferential evidence. If you do Soduko, that is inferential. Why do you know the number 7 belongs in that box: because all other possibilies have been eliminated, it couldn't be anything else. IMO, that is what crime solving is, as Sherlock Holmes said, "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".

So why do they believe WM killed the Shermans? Because he passed one camera around the Sherman home, but didn't pass any other cameras around the Sherman home for a long time. Besides entering the Sherman property, what else could he have done? Stood still in the alley for a long, long time? That's about it.

So IMO, in that little neighbourhood, around that house, there were sufficient cameras to guarantee that, unless they were dropped by a drone, a murderer must have passed a camera coming in, and passed a camera coming out.

That is a much easier problem to solve than, 'where did the person go afterwords?' Too many possibilities when they approached Leslie.

But narrowing it down to the scene of the crime allows you to drastically reduce the number of possibilities of what direction someone could have come from, and what direction they left by. And the time frame.

If people enjoy speculating, it's more like trying to solve a crossword, lots of guesses. Personally, I do Sudoku, not crosswords.

JMO

 

[ldlager]

But if they had large amounts of cash in the house why would Honey stop at the bank machine to take out the cash that night?

Police have said it wasn’t a robbery AFAIK

 

[ldlager]

But that person would have had to leave at some point.

Police knew and complained, right away (do I have to go back and find the quote, it was right after the murders?), that the Sherman's didn't have cameras. So, in spite of popular opinion, IMO police were not so wrapped up in M-S theories that they failed to look at camera footage right away.

It is just police procedure 101: determine which are the best cameras, all around the home, so that anyone entering or exiting the home would have to pass by one of them (unless they were smuggled in and later out, in the backseat of a car, or were, themselves, one of the neighbours.)

Then they go through each vantage point, very systematically and exhaustively, to determine whether anyone entered that perimeter before the murders, and didn't leave until after the murders.

IMO, this is how police ID'd WM.

IMO, police didn't just randomly look at camera footage, happen to notice a 'suspicious' looking person, then focus on that person.. IMO they would have been very systematic, because that's how you extract evidence which supplies proof, which can lead to charges, which can lead to convictions in court.

IMO, WM was not just unlucky to chose a route that could be traced to the house. I don't personally believe there was another route into or out of the house that police failed to find a camera for, and that some other person could have used.

People/neighbours got all excited about video footage of someone arriving at the house after the murder and trying to get in, and why didn't police care, etc. (IMO, that person contacted police when the bodies were discovered so that's why police didn't investigate.) But also, LE were focussed on who entered the property before the murder, and left after the murder. Someone arriving and leaving after the murder does not identify them as the murderer.

JMO

Except LE wasn’t systematic. They never even followed up on the camera footage from RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET until the residents of that house repeatedly offered them access to the footage. Physical evidence like copies of shoe prints of the realtors weren’t requested until months after the murders. Synagogue visitors were never questioned by LE. There are other things, I am sure

 

[ldlager]

It’s just a suggestion. KD now has said the police also believe the WM was an accomplice or had one. So how did the other person arrive and leave, if they’re correct?

The camera angles of the neighbouring cctv cameras had blind spots. The WM apparently walked into one when he got close to the house. Maybe if there was another person, it was more important to hide their arrival and departure. Meanwhile the WM took a long walk in and out of a neighbourhood with many cameras watching him.

Or the other murderer arrived in HS car….

 

[Cedars]

Except LE wasn’t systematic. They never even followed up on the camera footage from RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET until the residents of that house repeatedly offered them access to the footage. Physical evidence like copies of shoe prints of the realtors weren’t requested until months after the murders. Synagogue visitors were never questioned by LE. There are other things, I am sure

I wasn't referring to 'systematic' in terms of following up every possible lead, IMO that's 'comprehensive' not 'systematic'.

Systematic means "according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.".

IMO, it's like running a science experiment. You don't test everything that might possibly be relevant. You carefully define your parameters so that you are testing something that will yield verifiable proof. Yes, or no. You eliminate all randomness, in order to create certainty.

Presumably, they had access to better footage than the neighbour across the road. If someone at the synagog had really seen something, they'd report it to police. Why would you waste precious manpower tracking them all down and asking each one "did you see anything,?" They probably knew, from being systematic, that WM kept away from the synagog.

JMO

 

[FPoulet]

People/neighbours got all excited about video footage of someone arriving at the house after the murder and trying to get in, and why didn't police care, etc. (IMO, that person contacted police when the bodies were discovered so that's why police didn't investigate.)

@Cedars are you suggesting that you think the visitor on the Thursday morning was (a) the realtor, Elyse Stern, or (b) one of the staff who attended on Friday morning?