CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough, Ont, 19 June 1990 #2

[JohnPaul]

If you do not mind another "What is my Line" line of questioning, would the person possibly involved, be white? blond?
TIA.

i asked my friend about this, and he said the person was definitely not blonde.....my friend said the person had black hair but was caucasian, possibly half white and half philipino, but that is only my friends opinion and what he can recall

 

[JohnPaul]

Baltovich has his suspicions about another possible suspect closer to the Bain family, but he wants an outside police service to look into it.

i asked my friend about this who said he knew the bain family at the time of the disappearance, he said who RB suspects is pretty much written there in the article if you read closely enough,

Baltovich has his suspicions about another possible suspect closer to the Bain family, but he wants an outside police service to look into it.

my friends asks, "so who do you think could possibly be closer to the family then EB's boyfriend himself?"

 

[eyesonly]

Surely the family will cooperate if they feel it's in their best interest to find EB and her killer? Surely the family will not cooperate if they feel it's not in their best interest to find EB and her killer?

Imo, this is a case where finding the body will identify the killer.

Yes, the family's reaction will be very telling of things to come.

 

[eyesonly]

After Eb's disappearance, her younger sister CB began using the 3r auto place to fix her car. But the family had never used it before. This is directly from the 3r secretary.
Does anyone else find this odd. Would you feel comfortable taking your vehicle to the same place your missing sisters car was found with blood in it.
There is no evidence that CB was doing this to ask questions on the down-low to gather information about her sisters disappearance.
Thoughts?

 

[Woodland]

Speaking for myself only, not sure where the comfort would come from in doing that.

Using 3R Auto would have been sometime after EB's disappearance as well - CB did not have a vehicle at the time of EB's disappearance. According to mom, CB had borrowed her mom's vehicle that day (after spending the night at mom's house) so mom drove EB's car to get the gravel needed for the new parking pad she needed to have done by the following morning (when dad would return from Florida). Mom also said she filled up EB's tank on her way home - which is where the theory EB must be at/in Lake Scugog due to less that a tank full of gas when the car was found. This is the Bain story as per book NCTM.

Dibbs on the parking pad over the memorial garden (as per recent article) - unless they are one in the same spot.

 

[JohnPaul]

After Eb's disappearance, her younger sister CB began using the 3r auto place to fix her car. But the family had never used it before. This is directly from the 3r secretary.
Does anyone else find this odd. Would you feel comfortable taking your vehicle to the same place your missing sisters car was found with blood in it.
There is no evidence that CB was doing this to ask questions on the down-low to gather information about her sisters disappearance.
Thoughts?

i asked my friend about this who said he knew the bain family very well,

my friend says brother PB did a lot of repairs on many family vehicles including EB's and CB's vehicles, my friend says he helped PB with a lot of those repairs,

my friend also says they had a family mechanic who PB frequented on a regular basis to do repairs which PB and my friend were not able to perform on their own, my friend says this mechanics shop was located on comstock road in scarborough, which he says is near eglinton and pharmacy ave, my friend says he went there many times with brother PB,

my friend says CB had a very small white GM 3 cylinder vehicle at the time,

 

[Woodland]

I never believed mom drove and gassed up EB's car that day, now I definitely don't believe it.

 

[eyesonly]

"""""my friend says CB had a very small white GM 3 cylinder vehicle at the time,"""""

I'm sorry JP. Is you're friend saying that at the time of Liz's disappearance Cathy owned her own vehicle?

 

[JohnPaul]

mom drove EB's car to get the gravel needed for the new parking pad she needed to have done by the following morning (when dad would return from Florida)

i just asked my friend about this,

he said this is completely false, my friend said he saw the pile of gravel on the driveway, and my friend says that pile was far too large to fit into a compact car (or any car) and must have been delivered by a truck of some sort,

my friend said the pile of gravel was about 8-10 feet in diameter and about 6-8 feet tall,

 

[JohnPaul]

"""""my friend says CB had a very small white GM 3 cylinder vehicle at the time,"""""

I'm sorry JP. Is you're friend saying that at the time of Liz's disappearance Cathy owned her own vehicle?

my friend can not recall when CB purchased her own vehicle,

 

[Woodland]

i just asked my friend about this,

he said this is completely false, my friend said he saw the pile of gravel on the driveway, and my friend says that pile was far too large to fit into a compact car (or any car) and must have been delivered by a truck of some sort,

my friend said the pile of gravel was about 8-10 feet in diameter and about 6-8 feet tall,

Mrs B could very well have ordered it for delivery - it was delivered the same day. No time was ever attached to this delivery nor were any patio stones mentioned as delivered with the gravel. Mrs B did say she drove EB's car on the morning of the 19th and gassed it up as CB was driving her car.

Will try and find the page(s) in the book and attached a few excerpts.

 

[JohnPaul]

Mrs B could very well have ordered it for delivery - it was delivered the same day. No time was ever attached to this delivery nor were any patio stones mentioned as delivered with the gravel. Mrs B did say she drove EB's car on the morning of the 19th and gassed it up as CB was driving her car.

Will try and find the page(s) in the book and attached a few excerpts.

my friend says that area of the driveway already had patio stones on it, he says the family could park 2 cars on that area of the driveway which my friend says was extended off the side of the original paved driveway, my friend says this extended area is where EB always parked her car,

my friend says MrsB lifted up all of the patio stones, removed some weeds, did some digging, then layed a fresh layer of gravel down and then re-installed the patio stones on top of the gravel,

my friend says the area pretty much looked exactly the same from when MrsB started the project compared to when the project was finished,

my friend thinks it was very odd that MrsB would be working so hard on a project like this considering her daughter had just gone missing, my friend also thinks it is odd that MrsB often worked very late at night on this project (after dark)

 

[matou]

Wow Mrs B must be very strong. Moving stones and gravel around is very hard work. Gravel weighs a ton, even bits in a shovel. JMO

 

[Woodland]

We seem to have a dilemma on what was happening on the B driveway the evening of 19 June 1990.

From thread #1, post #1066 by JohnPaul -

the bains driveway was a double car driveway with an iron gate fence at the end that they could close if they wanted to, the gates were normally open, in all my years visiting i can only recall a few times when these gates were closed, and i would have to park and open them myself, they were never locked,

the driveway could park 4 cars in two rows of two.....maybe more if you squeezed them in,

to the right side of the driveway they had an area built with patio stones where you could park an additional two cars.....this is the area where EB normally parked her car along with her brother MB who had a nissan sports car at the time, i do not recall this area ever changing at all in the years before or after EBs disappearance,

i do not recall any large pile of dirt by the driveway at anytime before, during, or after EBs disappearance,

i can not locate the post right now, however somebody in this thread made some sort of reference regarding the Bains driveway which twigged something in my memory,

i recall the Bains having a very small portion of the driveway repaved....this was not a do it yourself job, it was professionally done.....however i want to make it very clear that i can not remember specifically when this was done.....it could have been before, during, or after EBs disappearance

From thread #1, post #1071 by JohnPaul -

i have no memory of this whatsoever,

i do not recall the patio stone parking area ever changing, i also do not recall it ever being paved, unless this was done many years later after i lost contact,

i also do not recall mrs B doing any digging or patio stone work at that time,

i was a very smart kid and im sure i would have noticed this as being somewhat of a red flag, or odd

also, the son (adopted by the bains) who i was friends with PB did 90% of the choirs around the house and yard, mr B was very strict with making sure he did his choirs, i am sure if mrs B was doing a project like this, he would have been helping out, and to my knowledge and memory he was not,

their front yard and house were very close to the street, the bains had a HUGE BACK YARD with a lot of pivacy, i would estimate about 200-300 feet long, and maybe 60-80 feet wide, lots of trees, so it would not make any sense to me to be digging in the front yard

Post #289 this thread by JohnPaul -

... my friend said he saw the pile of gravel on the driveway, and my friend says that pile was far too large to fit into a compact car (or any car) and must have been delivered by a truck of some sort,

my friend said the pile of gravel was about 8-10 feet in diameter and about 6-8 feet tall,

From post #292 this thread -

my friend says MrsB lifted up all of the patio stones, removed some weeds, did some digging, then layed a fresh layer of gravel down and then re-installed the patio stones on top of the gravel,

my friend says the area pretty much looked exactly the same from when MrsB started the project compared to when the project was finished

From the book NCTM, page 55, RB's account of what he saw when he arrived at the B driveway after EB's car had been moved from the parking lot he saw it in earlier - this is after 9:00 pm and before 9:30 pm 19 June 1990 -

'What first struck me at the Bains' was that Mark's car was parked in the driveway, but not Liz's. I was on my way to the front door when Mrs B walked out of the garage holding a rake. There was a big stack of patio stones piled up on the front drive near the area where she was in the process of making a new parking space. She was working so late into the night, she said, because she wanted to get this project of hers completed before Mr B came home from Florida the following afternoon. While she was smoothing out the gravel, I asked if she knew where Liz was. "I thought she was with you," Mrs B said.'

All bolding and underlining by me.

So RB did not see any gravel - it had been laid down in the new spot by then. He did see a stack of patio stones, which were eventually put in that spot (iirc Mrs B asked the household and RB to help her 2 nights later to finish laying the patio stones).

Have not found Mrs B's account of that day yet in the book - only RB's. There is discussion on post #1 about this project.

 

[eyesonly]

We seem to have a dilemma on what was happening on the B driveway the evening of 19 June 1990.

From thread #1, post #1066 by JohnPaul -

the bains driveway was a double car driveway with an iron gate fence at the end that they could close if they wanted to, the gates were normally open, in all my years visiting i can only recall a few times when these gates were closed, and i would have to park and open them myself, they were never locked,

the driveway could park 4 cars in two rows of two.....maybe more if you squeezed them in,

to the right side of the driveway they had an area built with patio stones where you could park an additional two cars.....this is the area where EB normally parked her car along with her brother MB who had a nissan sports car at the time, i do not recall this area ever changing at all in the years before or after EBs disappearance,

i do not recall any large pile of dirt by the driveway at anytime before, during, or after EBs disappearance,

i can not locate the post right now, however somebody in this thread made some sort of reference regarding the Bains driveway which twigged something in my memory,

i recall the Bains having a very small portion of the driveway repaved....this was not a do it yourself job, it was professionally done.....however i want to make it very clear that i can not remember specifically when this was done.....it could have been before, during, or after EBs disappearance

From thread #1, post #1071 by JohnPaul -

i have no memory of this whatsoever,

i do not recall the patio stone parking area ever changing, i also do not recall it ever being paved, unless this was done many years later after i lost contact,

i also do not recall mrs B doing any digging or patio stone work at that time,

i was a very smart kid and im sure i would have noticed this as being somewhat of a red flag, or odd

also, the son (adopted by the bains) who i was friends with PB did 90% of the choirs around the house and yard, mr B was very strict with making sure he did his choirs, i am sure if mrs B was doing a project like this, he would have been helping out, and to my knowledge and memory he was not,

their front yard and house were very close to the street, the bains had a HUGE BACK YARD with a lot of pivacy, i would estimate about 200-300 feet long, and maybe 60-80 feet wide, lots of trees, so it would not make any sense to me to be digging in the front yard

Post #289 this thread by JohnPaul -

... my friend said he saw the pile of gravel on the driveway, and my friend says that pile was far too large to fit into a compact car (or any car) and must have been delivered by a truck of some sort,

my friend said the pile of gravel was about 8-10 feet in diameter and about 6-8 feet tall,

From post #292 this thread -

my friend says MrsB lifted up all of the patio stones, removed some weeds, did some digging, then layed a fresh layer of gravel down and then re-installed the patio stones on top of the gravel,

my friend says the area pretty much looked exactly the same from when MrsB started the project compared to when the project was finished

From the book NCTM, page 55, RB's account of what he saw when he arrived at the B driveway after EB's car had been moved from the parking lot he saw it in earlier - this is after 9:00 pm and before 9:30 pm 19 June 1990 -

'What first struck me at the Bains' was that Mark's car was parked in the driveway, but not Liz's. I was on my way to the front door when Mrs B walked out of the garage holding a rake. There was a big stack of patio stones piled up on the front drive near the area where she was in the process of making a new parking space. She was working so late into the night, she said, because she wanted to get this project of hers completed before Mr B came home from Florida the following afternoon. While she was smoothing out the gravel, I asked if she knew where Liz was. "I thought she was with you," Mrs B said.'

All bolding and underlining by me.

So RB did not see any gravel - it had been laid down in the new spot by then. He did see a stack of patio stones, which were eventually put in that spot (iirc Mrs B asked the household and RB to help her 2 nights later to finish laying the patio stones).

Have not found Mrs B's account of that day yet in the book - only RB's. There is discussion on post #1 about this project.

Great work WD.
I do recall when JP started on this thread his memory of events so long was very limited which may explain his differences in his recall.

The part where RB says MB's car was in the driveway, which was somewhere between 9:15pm to 9:30pm. It has been proven that RB has told the truth about everything he did and saw that night.
So MB's car is in the driveway at 9:15pm (for argument's sake ) but MB testifies that he didn't leave class until 10pm, and he says he drove to class that night.
Hmmmmm. Interesting.

WD. What exactly about the driveway did you want to clear up. I will try to help.

Again WD, great work.

 

[Woodland]

Well, I did have a 'holy cow' moment ages ago when realizing that a spot that had not been checked for missing EB was the freshly dug area in her own driveway. And mom was doing the digging/laying gravel/smoothing out gravel and wanted patio stones laid down in that spot.

It's feasible that brother MB was the one to move EB's car (the lot where EB's car was parked was within walking distance of home) as his car was in the driveway. Or he was in the house when RB arrived.

I would have believed this coincidence if Mrs B had started the parking spot project sometime during the 3 weeks or so that Mr B had been in Florida - starting it the day before he was to arrive home and wanting it done by then - fishy imo.

In plain sight has always worked well.

 

[eyesonly]

I would have believed this coincidence if Mrs B had started the parking spot project sometime during the 3 weeks or so that Mr B had been in Florida.

Mr B was only in Florida for one week.

Fwiw, I view witness RC's sighting of EB in passenger seat of her car with male in drivers seat, in front of 3r auto office at approx 8:30pm, approx 30ft from where the car was found on the friday afternoon, as 100% accurate and viable.
Jmo of course.

 

[JohnPaul]

for what its worth, my friend who said he knew the bain family very well has drawn a little map of the bain property and asked me to post it for him.....my friend says the "patio stone" area of the driveway is where EB and MB normally parked their vehicles, my friend says this area could fit 2 cars side by side, and says EB normally parked closer to the road, and MB closer to the house, my friend says this area has now been "turfed over" and is now just grass/lawn

 

[JohnPaul]

So MB's car is in the driveway at 9:15pm (for argument's sake ) but MB testifies that he didn't leave class until 10pm, and he says he drove to class that night.
.

i asked my friend about this who said he knew the Bain family,

and my friend says this is just one of many discrepancies and contradictions in the Bain family stories regarding the case......

 

[Woodland]

Mr B was only in Florida for one week.

Fwiw, I view witness RC's sighting of EB in passenger seat of her car with male in drivers seat, in front of 3r auto office at approx 8:30pm, approx 30ft from where the car was found on the friday afternoon, as 100% accurate and viable.
Jmo of course.

Yes eyes, Mr B was in Florida for one week only - page 303 of NCTM, part of last paragraph -

Reason 12: Mr Bain had gone to Port Charlotte, Florida, to repair the roof of a house he owned for the week preceding his daughter`s disappearance. His return flight to Toronto had arrived just hours after his family realized Liz was missing. Was this planned, or just a bizarre coincidence.

Fwiw, the accuracy of RC`s sighting is for the reader imo. Some will believe, some will not. Seems to me though, we should include 401 guy claiming to see EB immediately after looking distressed while flying along the 401.

Neither RC nor 401 guy obtained a license plate number nor called LE at the time - they both claim to have been within a few feet of EB at the time of their sightings but only came forward after newspaper accounts.