CANADA Canada - Lloyd Larsfolk, 14, & John McCormick, 15, Caledon ON, Aug 1981

[Liquidlounge]

CrimeSolver, that’s a good idea to try a cadaver dog.

Norris only owned the property from 1980 to 1984, sold it before my brother went missing. My brother nor Ingrid Bauer would be there.

I missed LiquidLounge's post in regards to her visit to the house.

That sucks.

Did you actually ask them to dig? Or was it not brought up? I get the same impression, that they want nothing to do with it.

We talked about digging and were the location may be, everything looks different being there then from the areal shots. There was of course concern about digging up their garden or yard. My impression was that these are very nice people who need time to think about what the best thing for them to do is.

This is a lot to ask of someone, and of course nothing may be found. But at least it is out there and at some point, them or someone else may decide to check.

 

[CrimeSolver]

Norris only owned the property from 1980 to 1984, sold it before my brother went missing. My brother nor Ingrid Bauer would be there.

Oh, I see. So then it's really only these boys who might be found there, or someone yet-unmentioned by us who went missing during that period and hasn't been located.

Let me ask you something: Did your father have any regular or meaningful connections to Windsor in the early-'70s that you can remember? This question relates to the Stearne/Tedford investigation, which, although it's a long shot to say the least, you never know...

 

[Liquidlounge]

I am not aware of any connections he ever had in Windsor. I have never heard of any. I had very little to do with him in 1973 and don’t know what he did in that year. (One way to tell maybe is to check the Toronto Star archives and see where he was writing his stories or getting photographs from) I have been thinking about this as to the information that at one time the police stated that there might be a connection between this and the murder of Yvonne Leroux.

I of course don’t know why the police would have ever said that. I really do not see a connection. This to me, does not sound like something David Norris would have done. It’s the whole gun thing that really makes me think he would not be involved. He was a loner. I have also never known him to associate with street type people. It also sounds really unorganized that the killer would have put the weapon back out there, risking being identified. This to me, does not sound like him.

I would be more inclined to look for an unorganized person with lies to the street scene for these murders.

I know that Norris did have guns from time to time. Don’t know where he got them or what happened to them. He had a gun in 1971-72. Didn’t see it after 1972. He had a gun again in 1981, in Caledon. These were long barrel guns, don’t know what kind. He never hunted and did not like hunting. He did not go target practicing. Sorry I can’t help more.

 

[Liquidlounge]

Just another thought, as to why I think he probably isn’t involved in the Stearne/Tedford case. In 1971 when he was talking about killing people, he made a lot of points about how stranger abductions were the hardest to solve and that no body no evidence. In those years I am definitely looking at people who’s bodies have not been found or at the least not just sitting out there. Yvonne being different as she found back and prevented him from taking her further North. I believe that he would have tried to take his victims North of Toronto before doing anything to them. From what I saw, he enjoyed being charming and gaining their trust, letting them get into a vulnerable position before letting them know that they were in danger. He seemed to really like the position of power and the fear he created. The Stearne/Tedford case does not seem to have anything like this in.

 

[CrimeSolver]

I am not aware of any connections he ever had in Windsor. I have never heard of any. I had very little to do with him in 1973 and don’t know what he did in that year. (One way to tell maybe is to check the Toronto Star archives and see where he was writing his stories or getting photographs from)

It seems he wasn't a very frequent contributor to the Star, as only three articles arise when I do an "exact phrase" search of his name in the archives for the 1970-1975 period. None of the stories is set in Windsor or vicinity. On May 21st, 1973, less than a month after the Stearne/Tedford killings, Norris wrote an article about an elderly female shopkeeper who was beaten and strangled by a robber, but lived. Makes one wonder if he was getting off on writing crime stories or using them as research for his own depredations.

I have been thinking about this as to the information that at one time the police stated that there might be a connection between this and the murder of Yvonne Leroux.
I of course don’t know why the police would have ever said that. I really do not see a connection. This to me, does not sound like something David Norris would have done. It’s the whole gun thing that really makes me think he would not be involved. He was a loner. I have also never known him to associate with street type people. It also sounds really unorganized that the killer would have put the weapon back out there, risking being identified. This to me, does not sound like him.

Just another thought, as to why I think he probably isn’t involved in the Stearne/Tedford case. In 1971 when he was talking about killing people, he made a lot of points about how stranger abductions were the hardest to solve and that no body no evidence. In those years I am definitely looking at people who’s bodies have not been found or at the least not just sitting out there. Yvonne being different as she found back and prevented him from taking her further North. I believe that he would have tried to take his victims North of Toronto before doing anything to them. From what I saw, he enjoyed being charming and gaining their trust, letting them get into a vulnerable position before letting them know that they were in danger. He seemed to really like the position of power and the fear he created. The Stearne/Tedford case does not seem to have anything like this in.

I would be more inclined to look for an unorganized person with lies to the street scene for these murders.

I know that Norris did have guns from time to time. Don’t know where he got them or what happened to them. He had a gun in 1971-72. Didn’t see it after 1972. He had a gun again in 1981, in Caledon. These were long barrel guns, don’t know what kind. He never hunted and did not like hunting. He did not go target practicing. Sorry I can’t help more.

Thanks for the answers. Doesn't sound like his M.O., but with the girls one really doesn't know what happened and what type of person or people were involved. The perp(s) could have picked them (Tedford and Stearne) up with the intention of driving them north for a little rape and murder in the woods, but the girls, being street savvy, might have been immediately alarmed, and struggled to escape, foiling the perp's plans. Who knows? As to a Leroux connection to Tedford/Stearne, I don't necessarily see it either, but the police of course have access to all investigative details, which we lay people don't. They must have seen similarities or made links.

 

[Liquidlounge]

Someone requested the pictures of me on the cliff, so I have posted them. If they are taking too much room, let me know and I will take them down.

These are the first pictures. I felt fine and was not scared at this time.


Note the rounded cliff behind me in this picture. The rest of the pictures are close ups of me on the rounded cliff. It was straight down.


This is negative number 31. (Remember there used to be only 36 frames on a roll back then,) I was asked to stand on the rounded cliff.


This is negative number 32. He told me to put my hand on the leg further out and lean over and look down.

Negative number 33. He demanded that I lean over more and look down. He became angry that I was not leaning over or looking down enough. I tried to comply.

Negative number 34. I became terrified at this point and begged to be allowed off the cliff. From this angle you can see how far off my foot was. Pebbles were falling from under my shoe.


Negative number 35. He told me to just run my hand threw my hair.

Negative number 36. Last picture on roll. He wanted me to take the pictures over again. I was too scared to move. When he came to ‘help’ me off the cliff he tried to throw me off.



I am trying to find the exact location of the site where Veronica Kaye was found in 1981. She was killed in 1980, her body was not found until a few months after the boys disappeared. Her murder is exactly like that of Yvonne Leroux. She was picked up in Mississauga. Her body was found North West of Bolton on the Caledon town line.

There was something happening in the Norris household at the time of the boys disappearance that I believe may have caused Norris to think about killing someone. I believe that it is likely that he would have visited the site where Veronica lay, or at least drive by there. I expect to find a straight path between the Norris house and where Veronica was found with the McCormick farm in the middle.

I want to thank the person who posted the location of the McCormick farm on Google Earth.

 

[CrimeSolver]

Thank you for having the courage and generosity to post those photos. One feels like a voyeur looking at them. They sure are creepy. One can see the progression of your unhappiness and reluctance in each frame. So this took place in Napanee? Do you remember where, more specifically, just for my edification? (It's not skepticism; I'm just a detail junkie) Do you remember what date this took place? Your mother, if alive, could probably be prosecuted for her complicity, even after all these years.

I will see if I can track down the location of the Veronica Kaye body site, but I doubt my only resource, the newspaper archives, will be of much help. I capsulized her case last year in my "Unsolved Toronto crimes" thread.

Can you point out to me where someone posted the location of the McCormick farm? That would interest me too.

 

[Liquidlounge]

This took place in Milton at Rattle Snake Point. The pictures did not scan with good clarity, but in the pictures it is noticeable that some of the trees have lost there leaves. It did get cold out after this. I can guess they were taken at the end of September.

I too believe that my mom should be charged. The cops have a copy of the tape where she claims to have known about the attempt on my life at the cliffs.

I found someone’s posting of the McCormick farm by going to Google Earth and searching Horseshoe Rd. I have the general area where Veronica was found. So far it looks like the McCormick farm in the middle of Norris’s house and where I think her body was found.

 

[CrimeSolver]

I see, so September, 1972. Rattlesnake Point is also not far from where Marianne Schuett and Cameron March were abducted, in 1967 and 1975 respectively. But I think I'm overreaching there.

I too believe that my mom should be charged. The cops have a copy of the tape where she claims to have known about the attempt on my life at the cliffs.

If you're passionate about it, I would pursue it vigorously. On the other hand, you might be of the mind to put that aspect behind you. I don't know. If they have her admitting her involvement, it should be a fait accompli, although they might be balking at charging her because she's now a "poor little old lady". No excuse, I think. Even if she ends up getting no jail time, which is probable, at least charge her.

I'll check the Google Earth thing, but I have never had much luck locating particular "personal landmarks" on G.E. There's no proper search function that I have been able to find.

 

[CrimeSolver]

The was nothing more detailed in the Star archives on Kaye's body's location. It just says, "Two men walking a dog found Kaye's skeletal remains Oct. 9 (ed. 1981) in a field in the town of Caledon in Albion Township, northwest of Bolton".

 

[CrimeSolver]

I found someone’s posting of the McCormick farm by going to Google Earth and searching Horseshoe Rd.

Nope, I couldn't find it, as predicted.

 

[dearmont]

McCormick Farm on Horseshoe Hill Rd, Caledon, ON - image attached

Nope, I couldn't find it, as predicted.

 

[CrimeSolver]

Thanks, dearmont. Was the Larsfolk residence/farm south or north of the McCormick farm on Horseshoe Hill Rd.?

 

[dearmont]

best information I have places Larsfolk farm as indicated - NW of the McCormick Farm about 3/4 mile.

Thanks, dearmont. Was the Larsfolk residence/farm south or north of the McCormick farm on Horseshoe Hill Rd.?

 

[Laura_Bean]

Well I have a question now. About the father who may have been a serial killer. The one who dug the hole. When was he born? I need to know this. I have another case that could possibly be related but I am not positive.

 

[Joanie]

Those photos are chilling, and as a mom my brain is screaming to pull you away from that cliff, Liqiudlounge.

You are so right on why you wouldn't report the crime or talk about it... my dad was a drunk and mean, and we went through the same thing. We kept quiet until adulthood. He never tried to kill us, but he did hit us and our mom. Like you said, you would live through Hell and then get up and go to school the next day as if nothing had happened. It's a terrible life for a child.

My heart goes out to you, and for your quest for the truth.

 

[Liquidlounge]

David Norris’s psychiatric progress notes 1970

 

[kimmccormick]

Do the McCormick's have other children?

Yes, they have one daughter, my name is Kim. I have fully cooperated with the police and the investigation my entire life. I was the last person to see them and the first person to discover that they were missing. There has been a lot of misinformation on the internet about the events occuring before and after the boys went missing. The police have conducted a very full and exhaustive search for the boys and still continue today. I appreciate everyones help with the ongoing effort to help solve this. I will post logs stating what happened that day and the proceeding days. There are a few people of interest that I will also discuss. This is a very difficult subject for me and I will try to answer all of your questions.

Kim

 

[kimmccormick]

Roy, thanks so much for the informative article. It certainly fills in a lot of missing details of the case. Wow, that's a shocker about the father being the suspect! Sad that the McCormick boy apparently had uncaring - and maybe worse - parents, both of whom showed a callous disinterest (or nefarious concealment) in the fate of their son. If McCormick Sr. was the responsible party, I wonder what was his motive.
I guess there will never be a conclusive resolution to this case, but maybe someone will eventually stumble upon some bones and at least conclude that aspect.

My father was an alcoholic and not the best parent but my mother did everything she could do to make our lives happy and full. My mother was and is a loving generous mother and woman.
Kim

 

[kimmccormick]

Roy, thanks so much for the informative article. It certainly fills in a lot of missing details of the case. Wow, that's a shocker about the father being the suspect! Sad that the McCormick boy apparently had uncaring - and maybe worse - parents, both of whom showed a callous disinterest (or nefarious concealment) in the fate of their son. If McCormick Sr. was the responsible party, I wonder what was his motive.
I guess there will never be a conclusive resolution to this case, but maybe someone will eventually stumble upon some bones and at least conclude that aspect.[/quot

It's true that my father was an alcoholic and did not get along very well with my brother. However, my mother was and is a very caring giving supportive woman. My brother and I new that we were loved and very safe with her.

My family did not try to conceal anything. My family fully cooperated with the investigation from the begining until now. My father and I even underwent poygraph testing. It is very difficult for a family when they have the untinkable happen to them, until you experience something you never know how you will react. The police were camped out at our house for weeks. There was no concealment or disinterest on the part of my family. After weeks of interogation we were exhausted and felt helpless. There were so many weirdos showing up on our door step and calling at all hours of the day that my parents got very worried about my safety.
Things that are printed are not always true and at best are half truths.

If you have questions, here I am!


Kim