Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[10ofRods]

Ice. Just a guess.

Ice could be a reason if the trip is long. I had wondered about why they didn't use a helicopter. In that case, it's possible they used a body bag, and then...flew in some ice? Walked in some ice? That box doesn't look particularly insulated, but it could be. I've seen wooden boxes used with ice, but only when the expected trip for the corpse was lengthy. The corpse would need to be well packaged to avoid the associated humidity, IMO. OTOH, perhaps they are treating the bodies with as much respect as possible, so that the families will have something to bury.

Body remains must have been at ambient temperature (which was...??)

How long would the helicopter/plane ride be to Winnipeg?

The fact that the box is as large as it is would indicate that the corpse was fairly intact and they wanted to keep it that way. "Fairly intact" has a pretty broad meaning here though.

 

[mmsshh]

Here's my theory of what was their motive and what happened:

They didn't go to Whitehorse to find work. They were doing something illegal. I don't know what, maybe drugs or guns... something we may never know but definitely illegal. They had the evidence of their crime in their car, and were scared that the police might find the evidence and they get into trouble. They wanted to somehow get rid of their car, but they needed to steal another car first. They saw Lucas and Chynna's van parked by the highway. At first they didn't see the owner's around, and proceeded to steal the car. Suddenly Lucas and Chynna show up. Being the scared and inexperienced teens that they were, they shot the couple to death. Then they broke the windows of the van, opened its door and tried to start the engine... . The van doesn't work. Now they have murdered two people (without originally having the intention), a broken van, and their own car with whatever evidence in it, which they are trying so hard to destroy.

Now they are even more scared. They think there's no evidence to show that they were the murderers. They immediately jump into their car and try to get away as fast as they can. Later, they find another car by the highway, a RAV4, and an old gentleman chilling around. Having already murdered two people and nothing to lose, they kill the gentleman and steal his car. Again thinking that they have left no evidence and can get away with it if they drive really fast and get as far away as possible. They torch their own car, successfully destroy the evidence of what we will probably never know, and drive towards east.

They drive and drive and drive. Nonstop. They still have some hope that they may get away with all they have done. They're probably trying to make up a story to explain their torched car and the route they are taking. They have stole their victims IDs, just to buy themselves some time before the police can identify them and gather more information. At some point, when they are in northern Manitoba, they realize that they are stuck. The police and public know about them, know their faces and actively searching for them.

At this point, they're just too scared and don't really know what to do. They probably tried a few different scenarios: kill another innocent and get their car, hitchhike, etc. Finally, they decide to again torch the RAV4, destroy the evidance of something we may never know, and hide in the woods and wait until the police give up searching for them, or maybe meanwhile try to reach somewhere they can survive without being identified. Whatever their plan was, it went wrong and they ended up dying in the woods.

We may never know the details. But I believe they didn't just randomly decided to go and kill people. They ended up in a situation, got desperate and had to murder people, and after that they just had to go down and down. Kind of like Walter White in Breaking Bad. I don't think they killed people for mental issues or just for the sake of killing. They didn't harm the man who helped them get their car out of the mud although they had the perfect opportunity. I don't think they were evil serial killers. Just two kids (yes, kids) going after some dangerous adventure, and things went horribly wrong. Five lives wasted. What a shame...

 

[Kubirai]

Professor Dyck was killed almost 300 miles away. I don't think announcing that Lucas and Chynna were victims of homicide right away would have made any difference to him.

And few would've suspected a couple of young men like that. One wearing a funny t- shirt.

Highway 97 and Highway 37 connect at Watson Lake, which is almost halfway between the murder sites. There should have been some warning to drivers on both highways, to be cautious at stops.

 

[aphoto]

There seems to be advanced corrosion present consistent with being out in the elements for some time. It seems possible that police made a reasonable conclusion that the keys were unrelated. I’m not sure how it’s clear that they were with the suspects.

It’s not up to the officers bagging evidence to determine what is relevant. That is the crime lab and detectives job. Everything in the vicinity should always be collected.

To me it looks like the keys have been in a fire

Correct

RCMP have said that there are no other murders related to the suspects.

And we have no reason to believe there is but who knows? Some people here believe there was a 3rd person traveling with them so the possibility that there was another unaccounted for murder isn’t beyond the realm of possibility.

It’s possible they’ve been both sitting there for a long time and impacted by the fire. I just don’t think the go to conclusion should be police incompetence without further information. That’s a lot of deep corrosion on there that to an expert may be consistent with oxidation over time, rather than oxidation by intense heat over hours.

To an expert. The cops collecting evidence aren’t corrosion experts. Potential evidence should always be collected.

Someone could have planted them there after the fact: a freelancer or local trying to create a mystery.

None of the media reporting the case were freelancers, all staff with way too much to lose. I don’t think any local would plant evidence to create mystery and no media have worked the keys in to the narrative in that way.

 

[Optics]

• July 28: Police head to York Landing after a tip-off.

• July 30: Police end York Landing search and return to the main search area near Gillam.

• August 2: Police say they found items "on the shoreline of the Nelson River directly linked to the suspects" which give them a lead.

I think the RCMP would have found them sooner if they had not been called off to York Landing on the tip from there - they lost 2 days unfortunately to a false sighting. The RCMP were also pretty sure the suspects were around the initial Sundance area - but as they've said constantly every tip has to be explored.

 

[otto]

Highway 97 and Highway 37 connect at Watson Lake, which is almost halfway between the murder sites. There should have been some warning to drivers on both highways, to be cautious at stops.

What sort of warning should there be?
What sort of warnings did Alaska police post?

 

[Bluehorse]

Just picking up the discussion in the last thread regarding whether the RCMP erred in not making clear there had been a double homicide by gun earlier than they did as a matter of public safety. I don’t actually have an opinion on it one way or another as I don’t feel I know enough about why the decision was made or what internal discussions were had on the issue. However, to add some devil’s advocate type thoughts on points already made by others:

-Stranger on stranger gun violence in Canada is not common, and almost unheard of where these crimes happened. The fact that these might have be targeted shootings (love triangle, domestic, drug related etc.) had to have been just as likely, if not more so, than a random dangerous stranger initially.

-There is always going to be a need to balance public safety with the need to not unnecessarily set a large geographic area on edge that may have hours between them and law enforcement assistance. Better safe than sorry is superficially appealing perhaps, but the reality is it’s harder to pull back information than it is to get it out there. I can see police wanting to wait to get the victims ID’d and take a bit of time to try understand the crime before drawing conclusions about risk to public safety. Having people and their long guns in remote areas nervous and jumpy can create its own tragic outcomes.

-There was a CBC article that quoted some guy formerly(?) of York Regional having a degree of incredulity that the BC RCMP had not acted more quickly informing the public of the nature of the homicides. I literally laughed right out loud. Who in the media thought it was valuable to ask somebody with polar opposite policing experience to weigh in on the issue? York Regional polices well more than 1,000,000 people in well less than 2,000 square km in the freaking GTA. I mean, please. It’s hard to imagine this guy knows squat about the considerations of a force in Northern British Columbia.

Anyway, as I said, I don’t feel I can have an informed enough opinion right now, so I don’t have one yet. . Just a few thoughts on the kinds of things the RCMP may have been weighing.

These are all interesting considerations and make sense, but I still lean towards the RCMP making the public aware of homicides earlier and simply saying that at this time it is not known if the crime was targeted.

 

[dameagatha]

Thanks! I was thinking the same thing - it includes all sorts of unrelated info.

Their’s has an appalling lack of visual organization & structure. Your work is clear visual communication & very helpful.

 

[scrappinkat]

In regards to an earlier comment about an ATM theft in Port Alberni, property crime is pretty rampant there. (It feel like it’s the same in my town unfortunately)

•from 2018
https://www.albernivalleynews.com/news/crime-rate-drug-overdoses-still-rising-in-port-alberni/

the number of criminal offences has gone up by 32 percent for the quarter compared to last year. The increase is mostly driven by property crime, which is up by 52 percent.

The detachment’s major crime unit is investigating a number of large files with drug traffickers, including a significant child exploitation investigation where adult males were selling drugs to teenage girls for sex.
​

from 2019•
https://www.albernivalleynews.com/news/port-alberni-a-safe-place-to-be-despite-crime-rate-says-rcmp/

January to March of 2019. According to Hunter’s report, criminal offences for the quarter were up 17 percent in Port Alberni compared to 2018, and property crime was up 15 percent. Thefts, shoplifting and frauds are seeing the largest increases.

Violent crime is also up “significantly,” with 132 calls for service compared to 80 for the same time period last year. This is largely driven by the number of assaults, of which 81 calls were recorded.​

​

 

[otto]

And we have no reason to believe there is but who knows? Some people here believe there was a 3rd person traveling with them so the possibility that there was another unaccounted for murder isn’t beyond the realm of possibility.

People can believe whatever they want, but RCMP have stated from the beginning that there were two suspects, all CCTV footage shows two suspects, the suspects' families have said that they were travelling together (no others), and the suspects were found together - no other people.

RCMP know more about the route that the suspects travelled, and they have said that there are no other suspects and no other criminal events.

 

[Kubirai]

What sort of warning should there be?
What sort of warnings did Alaska police post?

The roadside signs which asked for dashcam videos after July 19 could have asked drivers to be cautious at roadside stops after July 15 murders.

 

[dameagatha]

Ice could be a reason if the trip is long. I had wondered about why they didn't use a helicopter. In that case, it's possible they used a body bag, and then...flew in some ice? Walked in some ice? That box doesn't look particularly insulated, but it could be. I've seen wooden boxes used with ice, but only when the expected trip for the corpse was lengthy. The corpse would need to be well packaged to avoid the associated humidity, IMO. OTOH, perhaps they are treating the bodies with as much respect as possible, so that the families will have something to bury.

Body remains must have been at ambient temperature (which was...??)

How long would the helicopter/plane ride be to Winnipeg?

The fact that the box is as large as it is would indicate that the corpse was fairly intact and they wanted to keep it that way. "Fairly intact" has a pretty broad meaning here though.

I used the word “ice” in the generic sense. Morgues use chemical coolants to extend preservation of remains.

 

[CinNC]

Shaking my head, here. Has anyone read the comments on the DM article with the headline about pork chops and oranges being the last meal after two weeks on the run? People who have not followed the story are taking the DM story as truth, word for word. They are all convinced that these two had brought pork chops and oranges into the woods with them and ate them after two weeks had passed. They are even suggesting in the comments that the pork chops had gone bad after two weeks in the woods and food poisoning killed them.

Just an example of how some poorly placed words in a headline or subheader can lead to a public frenzy that is based on pure b.s. (fake news!)

I know the DM is little more than a tabloid but they always seem to have more news and get it faster than any of the major news networks. Lately, I have barely even looked at the news; I've relied on Twitter and the reporters who have been in Gillam since the search there began. And here on WS, of course.

 

[aphoto]

How long would the helicopter/plane ride be to Winnipeg?

A bit less than 2 hours by plane.

People can believe whatever they want, but RCMP have stated from the beginning that there were two suspects, all CCTV footage shows two suspects, the suspects' families have said that they were travelling together (no others), and the suspects were found together - no other people.

RCMP know more about the route that the suspects travelled, and they have said that there are no other suspects and no other criminal events.

I think the claims of a 3rd person are ridiculous but I’m just using it to point out that the possibility that the keys are evidence shouldn’t be a fringe belief

 

[dameagatha]

Highway 97 and Highway 37 connect at Watson Lake, which is almost halfway between the murder sites. There should have been some warning to drivers on both highways, to be cautious at stops.

This is a good way to destroy a tourist economy. Millions of dollars are lost in summer beach communities whenever a loose-lipped weather forecaster on Wednesdays predicts rain for the weekend.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Let's not forget they were basically searching a massive bog filled with awful flying insects that try to eat you alive. I would like to see anyone but the RCMP withstand those searches for so long.

The average person would nope the *advertiser censored** out in 10 minutes. I've seen many theories that the bugs alone drove Kam and Bryer to suicide.

 

[Optics]

Perhaps 'terrible job' was a bit of an overstatement.

But come on. These kids drove down to a major river and then it took an awful long time to find them a few kms downstream on that river. There was all kinds of evidence, apparently. A sleeping bag. Personal items. A boat. Evidence they completely overlooked until a civilian pointed them in the right direction.

And then, of course, there's the way they jeopardized public safety by not disclosing the nature of the murders in a more timely manner.

The military captured 11,000 sq miles of imagery, the items were not on there. That combined with the fact the RCMP were pulled away for 2 days from that original area because of what was thought to be a credible sighting of them in York Landing. They were always more adamant in their search around Sundance. Combined with the 'tour operator' who was running tours up that section,,,,he was assisting and never spotted anything either prior to this past few days. The media is giving him credit because it likely helps promote his adventure tours too. You have to look behind the motive of where kudos are directed. AS for not reporting the original murders in a 'more timely manner', I am not sure how you would define 'timely'. I live in BC and heard of 2 bodies being found near Liard in less than 24 hours, which peaked my interest because I've been through those roads and area and lived and worked up there for 2 1/2 years. Media in BC was picking it up - it was only when they said the 2 were identified from USA/Australia that suddenly a light bulb went on on a more broader media basis. The truth is after securing and removing the bodies, there is then the identification and first and foremost is contacting their immediately family. With both being foreigners, no doubt that extra task takes time. RCMP send alerts out the key is whether media picks up and runs with the alerts, and sadly initially most media was ignoring was was growing into an international and cross country chase.

 

[Moonlitnight]

Here's my theory of what was their motive and what happened:

They didn't go to Whitehorse to find work. They were doing something illegal. I don't know what, maybe drugs or guns... something we may never know but definitely illegal. They had the evidence of their crime in their car, and were scared that the police might find the evidence and they get into trouble. They wanted to somehow get rid of their car, but they needed to steal another car first. They saw Lucas and Chynna's van parked by the highway. At first they didn't see the owner's around, and proceeded to steal the car. Suddenly Lucas and Chynna show up. Being the scared and inexperienced teens that they were, they shot the couple to death. Then they broke the windows of the van, opened its door and tried to start the engine... ****. The van doesn't work. Now they have murdered two people (without originally having the intention), a broken van, and their own car with whatever evidence in it, which they are trying so hard to destroy.

Now they are even more scared. They think there's no evidence to show that they were the murderers. They immediately jump into their car and try to get away as fast as they can. Later, they find another car by the highway, a RAV4, and an old gentleman chilling around. Having already murdered two people and nothing to lose, they kill the gentleman and steal his car. Again thinking that they have left no evidence and can get away with it if they drive really fast and get as far away as possible. They torch their own car, successfully destroy the evidence of what we will probably never know, and drive towards east.

They drive and drive and drive. Nonstop. They still have some hope that they may get away with all they have done. They're probably trying to make up a story to explain their torched car and the route they are taking. They have stole their victims IDs, just to buy themselves some time before the police can identify them and gather more information. At some point, when they are in northern Manitoba, they realize that they are stuck. The police and public know about them, know their faces and actively searching for them.

At this point, they're just too scared and don't really know what to do. They probably tried a few different scenarios: kill another innocent and get their car, hitchhike, etc. Finally, they decide to again torch the RAV4, destroy the evidance of something we may never know, and hide in the woods and wait until the police give up searching for them, or maybe meanwhile try to reach somewhere they can survive without being identified. Whatever their plan was, it went wrong and they ended up dying in the woods.

We may never know the details. But I believe they didn't just randomly decided to go and kill people. They ended up in a situation, got desperate and had to murder people, and after that they just had to go down and down. Kind of like Walter White in Breaking Bad. I don't think they killed people for mental issues or just for the sake of killing. They didn't harm the man who helped them get their car out of the mud although they had the perfect opportunity. I don't think they were evil serial killers. Just two kids (yes, kids) going after some dangerous adventure, and things went horribly wrong. Five lives wasted. What a shame...

Welcome. Although this is speculative, I believe you have hit the nail on the head to some degree. I have never felt it was their intent to kill Lucas and Chynna. More likely they panicked and, because a gun was handy (their own or possibly one that was in the van) shot the couple. Maybe there was a gun in the van for protection against animal predators. Then, as you say, they had nothing to lose in killing the professor. Again, speculative but makes some sense out of this lunacy. They panic and set their car alight, then repeat this with the RAV4 and take off into the bush, knowing they are now being hunted. Occam's Razor and all that. Whatever, it is over and done with and we will likely never know unless there appears a manifesto. JMO.

 

[otto]

The roadside signs which asked for dashcam videos after July 19 could have asked drivers to be cautious at roadside stops after July 15 murders.

On July 15, at the time of the first 2 murders, there was no reason to be concerned about roadside stops. Two people were killed on the highway and absolutely nothing was known about those people until July 18. Still, it was reported in the news on July 16 that Major Crimes was investigating suspicious deaths on the highway. That tells everyone that something serious happened.

That was a clear warning that people should be more alert. The botanist had access to the information from July 16 - 19 and did not act on it. Nothing can be done to change that fact.

Did Alaska police post roadside signs about the murders? If not, then RCMP and Alaska police made the same decisions.

 

[scrappinkat]

It’s not up to the officers bagging evidence to determine what is relevant. That is the crime lab and detectives job. Everything in the vicinity should always be collected.



Correct



And we have no reason to believe there is but who knows? Some people here believe there was a 3rd person traveling with them so the possibility that there was another unaccounted for murder isn’t beyond the realm of possibility.



To an expert. The cops collecting evidence aren’t corrosion experts. Potential evidence should always be collected.



None of the media reporting the case were freelancers, all staff with way too much to lose. I don’t think any local would plant evidence to create mystery and no media have worked the keys in to the narrative in that way.

I bolded the clear and simple statement you made, yes 100%!