Found Safe Canada - O’Driscoll-Zak sisters, 2 & 5, abduction by aunt & grandmother, Cochrane, 12 Mar 2021

[MyBelle]

Yes, the paragraph provides insight from the judge's point of view but doesn't answer some basic questions I've had since first reading about this case.

1) The appeal court said more than just a simple affirmation of the judge's decision and dismissal of the appeal IIRC. It does make me wonder if the judge really 'heard' what else they had to say about the visitation plan, etc..

2) I still have no understanding of what the specific "recent events" could be.

I find that Jacqueline has significantly contributed to this trauma. I would even say she ignited it, and now it is aflame.
I must say this is a very good example of descriptive writing but I was troubled that this would appear as part of a legal document. It's quite subjective as opposed to an objective style, which I assumed was the accepted norm in legal writing.
However, I work in medical not in legal. Perhaps, a subjective style is acceptable in the courts? IDK.

3) "they need to be unified with their father"
If this means starting visitation, this is a good thing, IMO.
If this means turning full custody over to the father whom the kids haven't seen in months, that is pretty radical and will definitely be very traumatizing to the young children.

"...their mother needs to stop her obstructive, intrusive poisonous behaviour."
More troubling subjective writing, IMO.
It would be better to take out the words "intrusive poisonous" and let it read "their mother needs to stop her obstructive behavior." This would describe the actions in a factual manner. IMO using words such as "poisonous" sounds unprofessional and makes one think the judge is overly emotional (and possibly biased) about aspects of this case.

Just my opinion.

You are spot on!!

The divorce was filed in 2019. The youngest child is 2 years old so she was either unborn or only a small infant and her sister a toddler when the parents split. Forcing the little girls to go live with someone who has not been a primary caregiver can extremely traumatize the child and result in extreme separation anxiety for years to come. There has been a ton of medical research on it.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

It is a child custody matter. I doubt the appeal of the judge's February 1st decision--of which there most certainly has been an appeal--will be public record until the Appeals Court renders a decision.

As the children haven’t been located yet its unlikely any court will waste time on an appeal involving the custody of missing children who were taken without authority of the Court.

 

[Mystrywrtr62]

Yes, the paragraph provides insight from the judge's point of view but doesn't answer some basic questions I've had since first reading about this case.

1) The appeal court said more than just a simple affirmation of the judge's decision and dismissal of the appeal IIRC. It does make me wonder if the judge really 'heard' what else they had to say about the visitation plan, etc..

2) I still have no understanding of what the specific "recent events" could be.

I find that Jacqueline has significantly contributed to this trauma. I would even say she ignited it, and now it is aflame.
I must say this is a very good example of descriptive writing but I was troubled that this would appear as part of a legal document. It's quite subjective as opposed to an objective style, which I assumed was the accepted norm in legal writing.
However, I work in medical not in legal. Perhaps, a subjective style is acceptable in the courts? IDK.

3) "they need to be unified with their father"
If this means starting visitation, this is a good thing, IMO.
If this means turning full custody over to the father whom the kids haven't seen in months, that is pretty radical and will definitely be very traumatizing to the young children.

"...their mother needs to stop her obstructive, intrusive poisonous behaviour."
More troubling subjective writing, IMO.
It would be better to take out the words "intrusive poisonous" and let it read "their mother needs to stop her obstructive behavior." This would describe the actions in a factual manner. IMO using words such as "poisonous" sounds unprofessional and makes one think the judge is overly emotional (and possibly biased) about aspects of this case.

Just my opinion.

Having read a lot of cases, this wording is fairly innocuous compared to some others. IMO she was expressing her judgment on the mother's behaviour. As a judge, that is her perview. I don't take issue with her choice of words. You want an interesting read of a judge making a lot of statements, I recommend reading the case of Bruni v. Bruni:

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAIZGlja2hlYWQAAAAAAQ

another Canadian case dealing with similar issues (alienation being one). Here are a couple of snippets:

"
[1] Paging Dr. Freud. Paging Dr. Freud.

[2] This is yet another case that reveals the ineffectiveness of Family Court in a bitter custody/access dispute, where the parties require therapeutic intervention rather than legal attention. Here, a husband and wife have been marinating in a mutual hatred so intense as to surely amount to a personality disorder requiring treatment."

"[11] Catherine and Larry were married on October 7, 1995. If only the wedding guests, who tinkled their wine glasses as encouragement for the traditional bussing of the bride and groom, could see the couple now. "

"[210] While Larry's access conduct has largely reflected nothing more than inept parenting, Catherine's parental- alienation behaviour has been evil."

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, the paragraph provides insight from the judge's point of view but doesn't answer some basic questions I've had since first reading about this case.

1) The appeal court said more than just a simple affirmation of the judge's decision and dismissal of the appeal IIRC. It does make me wonder if the judge really 'heard' what else they had to say about the visitation plan, etc..

2) I still have no understanding of what the specific "recent events" could be.

I find that Jacqueline has significantly contributed to this trauma. I would even say she ignited it, and now it is aflame.
I must say this is a very good example of descriptive writing but I was troubled that this would appear as part of a legal document. It's quite subjective as opposed to an objective style, which I assumed was the accepted norm in legal writing.
However, I work in medical not in legal. Perhaps, a subjective style is acceptable in the courts? IDK.

3) "they need to be unified with their father"
If this means starting visitation, this is a good thing, IMO.
If this means turning full custody over to the father whom the kids haven't seen in months, that is pretty radical and will definitely be very traumatizing to the young children.

"...their mother needs to stop her obstructive, intrusive poisonous behaviour."
More troubling subjective writing, IMO.
It would be better to take out the words "intrusive poisonous" and let it read "their mother needs to stop her obstructive behavior." This would describe the actions in a factual manner. IMO using words such as "poisonous" sounds unprofessional and makes one think the judge is overly emotional (and possibly biased) about aspects of this case.

Just my opinion.

You are spot on!!

The divorce was filed in 2019. The youngest child is 2 years old so she was either unborn or only a small infant and her sister a toddler when the parents split. Forcing the little girls to go live with someone who has not been a primary caregiver can extremely traumatize the child and result in extreme separation anxiety for years to come. There has been a ton of medical research on it.

JMO

 

[Seattle1]

No that is the judge’s decision you quote, not the judge providing a response. Her decision stands and doesn’t go any further unless the mother tries to appeal again. Hasn’t yet that I know.

The judge clearly states she is responding to a second application:

As stated above, in the current application the mother seeks to have me disqualified as case management justice. She alleges four specific instances of bias:

^^RSBM

If OP is confused that an "application" for an order is somehow the equivalent of an "appeal" (from the decision by Justice Price), perhaps referencing the actual court links will be of assistance.

OP is quoting from the Court of Queen’s Bench of Alberta and the respective
Reasons for Decision of the Honourable Madam Justice J.C. Price whereas a dispute by the appellant and subsequent Memorandum of Judgment is/was heard In the Court of Appeal of Alberta.

As of this date, I find no record the mother has appealed the case management judge's decision written on 1 Feb 2021 that there is any basis for the judge to be dismissed.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2021/2021abqb80/2021abqb80.html
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2020/2020abca431/2020abca431.html

ETA: To be clear, it's more common than not for the Court of Appeal of Alberta to grant the application (permission to appeal) and deny the remedy and/or relief requested in one notice-- primarily because an appeal is not an opportunity to reargue the case. The role of an appellate court is not to rehear the case as a second-level trial court, but to review for factual misapprehensions, errors of reasoning and clearly wrong outcomes: Fleming v Fleming, 2016 ABCA 88 at para 18, 616 AR 217..

In civil matters, it can be very costly in application fees for the appellant to make these requests.

 

[MyBelle]

^^RSBM

If OP is confused that an "application" for an order is somehow the equivalent of an "appeal" (from the decision by Justice Price), perhaps referencing the actual court links will be of assistance.

OP is quoting from the Court of Queen’s Bench of Alberta and the respective
Reasons for Decision of the Honourable Madam Justice J.C. Price whereas a dispute by the appellant and subsequent Memorandum of Judgment is/was heard In the Court of Appeal of Alberta.

As of this date, I find no record the mother has appealed the case management judge's decision written on 1 Feb 2021 that there is any basis for the judge to be dismissed.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2021/2021abqb80/2021abqb80.html
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2020/2020abca431/2020abca431.html

In my state, an appeal involving child custody remains under seal to protect the privacy of the children.

 

[Inthedetails]

Seems like this a domestic dispute discussion more than a crime discussion, imo.

 

[otto]

Seems like this a domestic dispute discussion more than a crime discussion, imo.

This is a criminal investigation into the abduction of two young children by two people related to the family. The longer it goes on, the more concern there is for the children.

"The Serious Crimes Branch of the RCMP continue to investigate the disappearance of 5-year-old Leonine O’Driscoll-Zak and 2-year-old Wyatt O’Driscoll-Zak and still believe they are in the company of their grandmother and aunt who are believed to have taken them. "
​

Cochrane RCMP update investigation into search for missing children and adults - DiscoverAirdrie.com

 

[rkendmar]

True, the girls were abducted by their grandmother and aunt.
Most likely these girls are not traumatized as they are with familiar family members.

What will happen when the girls are recovered?
Their father will be awarded full legal custody.
Their mother will have no access to the girls.
The grandmother and aunt will be prosecuted and will not have access to the girls.

I'm wondering how the 'best interests of the child' will be served in all of this?

 

[otto]

True, the girls were abducted by their grandmother and aunt.
Most likely these girls are not traumatized as they are with familiar family members.

What will happen when the girls are recovered?
Their father will be awarded full legal custody.
Their mother will have no access to the girls.
The grandmother and aunt will be prosecuted and will not have access to the girls.

I'm wondering how the 'best interests of the child' will be served in all of this?

The father was already awarded full custody. That's very likely why the children were abducted.

"The two children were supposed to be picked up that day by their father, Colin Zak who was awarded full custody of his daughters. Zak said when he went to get the kids from the home they weren't there.
​

Cochrane RCMP update investigation into search for missing children and adults - DiscoverAirdrie.com

The mother would have had generous visitation, perhaps even 50% visitation, had she respected the Court of Queen's Bench decisions. Given the abduction, the mother, sister and grandmother will be given supervised visitation to ensure that the children are not abducted in the future.

When emotions settle down, that supervised visitation will transition to unsupervised visitation.

The aunt and grandmother will be charged, but it's up to the prosecutor to decide how far to take it. It could be settled without trial.

 

[MyBelle]

True, the girls were abducted by their grandmother and aunt.
Most likely these girls are not traumatized as they are with familiar family members.

What will happen when the girls are recovered?
Their father will be awarded full legal custody.
Their mother will have no access to the girls.
The grandmother and aunt will be prosecuted and will not have access to the girls.

I'm wondering how the 'best interests of the child' will be served in all of this?

I think the Appeals Court will step in.

 

[rkendmar]

The father was already awarded full custody. That's very likely why the children were abducted.

"The two children were supposed to be picked up that day by their father, Colin Zak who was awarded full custody of his daughters. Zak said when he went to get the kids from the home they weren't there.
​

Cochrane RCMP update investigation into search for missing children and adults - DiscoverAirdrie.com

The mother would have had generous visitation, perhaps even 50% visitation, had she respected the Court of Queen's Bench decisions. Given the abduction, the mother, sister and grandmother will be given supervised visitation to ensure that the children are not abducted in the future.

When emotions settle down, that supervised visitation will transition to unsupervised visitation.

The aunt and grandmother will be charged, but it's up to the prosecutor to decide how far to take it. It could be settled without trial.

I will hope for the best for all involved, especially the young girls.
I hadn't realized how dysfunctional the courts were RE: high conflict child custody cases.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the children have been taken out of the country with the intention of staying until the youngest is of age.
It's really sad all around.
JMO.

 

[otto]

If the children are returned, even after 10 days, perhaps charges can be avoided. The longer it drags on, the worse it becomes. The situation needs to be sorted out for the sake of the children. The mother's interference with the father's access to the children probably factored into the decision regarding custody. I suspect that had she shown a willingness to cooperate, she might have been granted full custody, at the very least joint custody.

However, if the family is relying on the same lawyers who were tossing out new allegations about one of the children in Dec 2020, I suspect things will get worse. Divorce lawyers with 30+ years experience should know better than endorse those wild allegations as a last minute desperate move to influence the courts.

paragraph 8
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2020/2020abca431/2020abca431.html

 

[Mystrywrtr62]

I think the Appeals Court will step in.

In Alberta the Appeals Court jurisdiction is to determine if there have been errors in law made by the Case Management Judge. If they were to hear another appeal (which has to be filed by the mother's lawyer - it is not automatic) they would determine whether the Case Management Judge, Justice Price, made an error in law, and if they found an error they would send the case back to her for reconsideration. As the Court of Appeal stated in their previous appeal decision:

"As an appellate court, we are not in a position to resolve the parties’ competing positions nor to fashion a new parenting plan. The determination of a new parenting plan that is in the best interests of the children should be considered afresh by the case management judge."

If the Court were to find Justice Price to be "biased" (I encourage all to go to CANLII.ORG and search Alberta family law cases for bias. There are tons of attempts but very few succeed. It is highly unlikely IMO they would find her to be biased based on the high bar that has to be met under existing case law), but if they did, it would get remitted back to a new case management judge to hold a new hearing and make a decision on custody.

They considered bias in the first appeal, with the wording that has been raised by some as "proof of bias" before them, and they held that:

"There is no basis for any suggestion of lack of impartiality."

 

[otto]

I will hope for the best for all involved, especially the young girls.
I hadn't realized how dysfunctional the courts were RE: high conflict child custody cases.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the children have been taken out of the country with the intention of staying until the youngest is of age.

It's really sad all around.
JMO.

The courts aren't dysfunctional. When one parent refuses to abide by court orders, she doesn't go to jail. Mediation and other family support services, including a psychologist, were made available. The mother refused to participate.

RCMP have said that they believe the children are in the country and that the abductors are aided by others who think they are protecting the children. It is impossible to leave the country without a paper trail during covid. Everyone passing through the border will be checked.

Furthermore, the children were last seen at their rural home near Cochrane at 9:30AM. Court starts at 10:00AM. When the father went to the rural home to collect the children, they were gone. There would have been an immediate alert to all borders across the country.

 

[Seattle1]

In my state, an appeal involving child custody remains under seal to protect the privacy of the children.

Yes, in the US, most family court matters are protected. However, we know from the publically accessible and published appeal heard on 30 Nov 2020 -- that is not the case in Alberta.

Notices to the Profession & Public
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2020/2020abca431/2020abca431.html

 

[MyBelle]

I will hope for the best for all involved, especially the young girls.
I hadn't realized how dysfunctional the courts were RE: high conflict child custody cases.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the children have been taken out of the country with the intention of staying until the youngest is of age.
It's really sad all around.
JMO.

It is very sad. I read that there 350,000 parental kidnappings a year. That doesn't surprise me because family courts are very dysfunctional.

Pointing to Dulos case, state Sen. Alex Bergstein announces new legislation to expand legal definition of domestic violence

 

[otto]

Yes, in the US, most family court matters are protected. However, we know from the publically accessible and published appeal heard on 30 Nov 2020 -- that is not the case in Alberta.

Notices to the Profession & Public
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2020/2020abca431/2020abca431.html

From the same link ... The lawyers for the family should apply to have documents sealed, especially since the abduction has made people very curious about why they were abducted.

 

[Seattle1]

I think the Appeals Court will step in.

What exactly is it that you expect the Appellate Court to decide?

Custody has already been awarded to the father.

The kidnapping is a criminal matter.

Again, the purpose of the appeallate court is not an opportunity to reargue the case. It's not a do-over because one party didn't like the decision. If anything, the Court will probably impose strict, supervised visitation only-- that's if they're allowed any visitation at all after abducting the children on the date they were to be given to their father.

ETA: To be clear, it's more common than not for the Court of Appeal of Alberta to grant the application (permission to appeal) and deny the remedy and/or relief requested in one notice-- primarily because an appeal is not an opportunity to reargue the case. The role of an appellate court is not to rehear the case as a second-level trial court, but to review for factual misapprehensions, errors of reasoning and clearly wrong outcomes: Fleming v Fleming, 2016 ABCA 88 at para 18, 616 AR 217..
In civil matters, it can be very costly in application fees for the appellant to make these requests.

 

[MistyWaters]

I can’t find any updates whatsoever today.

Hopefully no news is good news and tips the RCMP have received may be proving fruitful.