Identified! Canada - Vancouver, 2 WhtMale Brothers, 7-10, "Babes in the Woods", Jan'53 - Derek and David D’Alton

[PatLaurel]

I wouldn't assume a formal marriage and change of name for EB. That was possibly one of her troubles, an informal arrangement that hadn't been regularized.

Children are usually given the mother's last (possibly maiden) name if the father is 'unknown' (in practical terms, is unavailable or unwilling to sign the birth certificate.) They are usually given the last name of the man who signs the birth certificate.

Being a husband and being a biological father are two separate things that are frequently unconnected to each other...

As well, I don't think authorities were as preoccupied with checking ID, as we are now, I wonder what the actual procedure was.

Just to add, the geneology research was probably focussed just on the biological mother, but there's the whole other element of the fathers' as well. Possibly, they were in Alberta.

JMO

ETA: clarifying a bit between what is the legal procedure vs what are the 'social expectations'.

Acccording to police, she was the orphaned daughter of Russian refugees who fled to then harsh and unpopulated Alberta. Fitting in to middle class North American legal system/expectations might not have been easy for a girl in her early twenties. Also JMO

BBM

So, being listed as widow on the phone directory doesn't mean there was an official marriage?

I apologize for my curiosity, but when I was in high school, a girl in my class had "unknown father" on her ID card and that traumatized me for life. I'm glad the "Babes" got their names back... too late to mend their past but we can still mend their family tree. JMOVPO.


MOO JMO

 

[Andreee]

So, if not a D, who is her late husband in 1941?
MOO JMO

I don't know.

 

[Satchie]

BBM

So, being listed as widow on the phone directory doesn't mean there was an official marriage?

I apologize for my curiosity, but when I was in high school, a girl in my class had "unknown father" on her ID card and that traumatized me for life. I'm glad the "Babes" got their names back... too late to mend their past but we can still mend their family tree. JMOVPO.


MOO JMO

What I mean is, city directories are just one source of info. To confirm a marriage it's best to find a marriage certificate.

City directories are very helpful, but they are not official legal documents. They were run as a very profitable private business.

"The information was collected by door-to-door canvassers...The information was given voluntarily and misspellings could occur. " (Vancouver Archives blog, I hope this source is okay) On the hunt for 2116 Maple Street: A house history expedition – Part 3: City Directories – AuthentiCity

For genealogy you have to collect info from a variety of sources, some more reliable than others. Just like other types of detection.

The last names could reflect two marriages, or one, or none. I don't know which, I think the key is, not to assume anything until facts can be confirmed.

JMO

 

[PatLaurel]

What I mean is, city directories are just one source of info. To confirm a marriage it's best to find a marriage certificate.

City directories are very helpful, but they are not official legal documents. They were run as a very profitable private business.

"The information was collected by door-to-door canvassers...The information was given voluntarily and misspellings could occur. " (Vancouver Archives blog, I hope this source is okay) On the hunt for 2116 Maple Street: A house history expedition – Part 3: City Directories – AuthentiCity

For genealogy you have to collect info from a variety of sources, some more reliable than others. Just like other types of detection.

The last names could reflect two marriages, or one, or none. I don't know which, I think the key is, not to assume anything until facts can be confirmed.

JMO

BBM

That's what i was trying to understand, the fact that she's listed as a widow doesn't mean she was in fact a widow. She may have said what suited her best, knowing no one was going to check whether it was true or false.

MOO JMOO

 

[Andreee]

Just out of interest, I looked up the background about the name D'Alton. Here is Wikipedia (which isn't always completely correct, but here it is)

D'Alton is both a surname and a given name of Norman origin found in Ireland and Britain and places where people from those backgrounds emigrated to. The Hiberno-Norman sept ruled over Rathconrath, previously known as D'Alton country,[1] and surrounding areas of Westmeath from the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169 until the Cromwellian Conquest of Ireland in 1649.

Notable people with the name include:

Surname:

• Eduard Joseph d'Alton (1772–1840), German engraver and naturalist
• Johann Samuel Eduard d'Alton (1803–1854), German anatomist, son of Eduard d'Alton
• John D'Alton (1882–1963), Irish Roman Catholic cardinal and Primate of All Ireland
• John D'Alton (historian) (1792–1867), Irish lawyer and genealogist
• Rob D'Alton (born 1923), Irish sailor and Olympian
• Thomas d'Alton (1895–1968), Australian politician

Given name:

• D'Alton Corry Coleman (1879–1956), Canadian businessman
• D'Alton or Dalton McCarthy (1836–1898), Canadian lawyer and parliamentarian

See also

 

[Andreee]

Similarly, from the House of Names website, the name Bousquet has Norman background as well.
Early Origins of the Bousquet family
The surname Bousquet was first found in Brittany and Normandy (French: Normandie), the former Duchy of Normandy, where several notable families of this name have long been established. Among them were a du Boscq family of Normandy. Bousquet was generally a Southern variant of this same name. A Guillaume du Bosc was one of the companions of William the Conqueror in 1066. A Nicolas Bosc was the Bishop of Bayeux in 1397, and Chancelor of France in 1397.

 

[carbuff]

I remember from when I was growing up in Montana back in the 60s, it was pretty common for women who had children "out of wedlock" as the phrase was, would move somewhere and call themselves widows. Socially more acceptable and didn't have to explain the lack of a father. My mother would grumble under her breath about one woman in our church: "Looks like she's been widowed four times."

 

[summergirl1]

The brothers' sister probably simply had a hard time discussing traumatic events from her childhood and believed her mother about the brothers being taken from her. Or was in denial at some level, and wanted to believe that. She came from a generation that gets mentioned at times as a generation that didn't discuss stuff and put stuff behind them. She had dementia anyway, so even if still living when her brothers were identified, probably couldn't offer any useful info. I do wonder though that people like the twin sister of the boys' mother apparently never asked questions and just believed that Social Services took the boys. And I guess nobody at their school ever wondered. It was definitely a different time.

 

[Susikatze]

Similarly, from the House of Names website, the name Bousquet has Norman background as well.
Early Origins of the Bousquet family
The surname Bousquet was first found in Brittany and Normandy (French: Normandie), the former Duchy of Normandy, where several notable families of this name have long been established. Among them were a du Boscq family of Normandy. Bousquet was generally a Southern variant of this same name. A Guillaume du Bosc was one of the companions of William the Conqueror in 1066. A Nicolas Bosc was the Bishop of Bayeux in 1397, and Chancelor of France in 1397.

Many Mètis Native Americans got assigned French names or inherited them from their side of French white ancestry.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

The brothers' sister probably simply had a hard time discussing traumatic events from her childhood and believed her mother about the brothers being taken from her. Or was in denial at some level, and wanted to believe that. She came from a generation that gets mentioned at times as a generation that didn't discuss stuff and put stuff behind them. She had dementia anyway, so even if still living when her brothers were identified, probably couldn't offer any useful info. I do wonder though that people like the twin sister of the boys' mother apparently never asked questions and just believed that Social Services took the boys. And I guess nobody at their school ever wondered. It was definitely a different time.

I totally agree. My grandmother is from this generation. She divorced my Mother's biological father when she was a toddler. She grew up thinking her stepfather was biological until her older brother's told her later. Biological dad remarried and had another child and my grandmother knew about it but never told the kids they had another sibling. That sibling who was told by her mother about her half siblings looked for them for years but never knew my grandfather's (Mom's stepfather) surname. He had adopted my Mom and uncles and they took his last name. My Mom finally got to meet her sister in their 50's.

 

[carbuff]

In the area where I grew up, people wouldn't even think of questioning the explanation that social services took one or more children. We'd be like "Oh that's too bad, do you think you'll get them back?" and then half the time, behind their backs we'd be saying, "Well, the kids are better off somewhere else."

 

[bettyboop]

Hello everyone. This case is on my list of watched cases for a few reasons.
My family is French-Canadian, and my mother was is in foster care. But, what has proved to me to be inspiring, are the two researchers who were instrumental in finding the boys names. Anthony Lukas Redgrave and Lee Bingham Redgrave of Redgrave Research. They both previously worked for the DNA Doe Project. They teach Forensic Genealogy training
for Law Enforcement (FG4LE), AND, they are both co-founders of The Trans Doe Task Force!! Kudos to them both. Way to go!!! JMO MOO

 

[Dragonfyree]

Just saw they were identified on a YouTube crime channel I watch called Criminally Listed - Update Of Cases

In case anyone also watches this case, the show also discloses that the murder of the 3 members of the Durham Family in Boone, North Carolina in 1973 has also been solved. This is the one where the parents & 18 year old son were drowned in bathtub during a blizzard. Many people thought son-in-law did the crime as he had a crazy story of the mother calling them in the middle of the crime to let them know they were being attacked.

 

[StarrChance]

I remember from when I was growing up in Montana back in the 60s, it was pretty common for women who had children "out of wedlock" as the phrase was, would move somewhere and call themselves widows. Socially more acceptable and didn't have to explain the lack of a father. My mother would grumble under her breath about one woman in our church: "Looks like she's been widowed four times."

Ha, or the church lady was a serial killer...

 

[Vern]

RSBM

...
In case anyone also watches this case, the show also discloses that the murder of the 3 members of the Durham Family in Boone, North Carolina in 1973 has also been solved. This is the one where the parents & 18 year old son were drowned in bathtub during a blizzard. Many people thought son-in-law did the crime as he had a crazy story of the mother calling them in the middle of the crime to let them know they were being attacked.

Good write up on the Durham solve here; one of the perp's sons came forward with information that helped:
‘Dixie Mafia’ linked to 1972 killings of 3 Watauga County family members – WSOC TV

 

[Reasonable & Just]

Such joyful pictures of those sweet, sweet boys. All my love to these little angels, and to all the other little ones living in danger every day.

 

[summergirl1]

Reading more about this case, it is obvious it got a lot of publicity at the time. If they had been identified properly as two brothers, not a brother and sister, then it may have been solved at the time. The time that had gone by, about five years, also likely contributed to this never being solved back then.

Their mother must have been very desperate to do this, as evidence most strongly points to her having done it. She must have seen the headlines when they were found. What she did seems to have made her sad the rest of her life.

This may also have been solved years earlier if other family members had wondered like her great grand daughter ended up doing, and started asking questions and doing research. Genetic genealogy may have solved this anyway, with matching them with more distant relatives, first, of course. It's much easier to solve these kind of cases now than in the past. They were very cute little boys and it's too bad the whole situation ended so terribly.

 

[SolVic]

Forgive me if I’m asking a question that’s already been answered. I’m a little late to the party.

Has the killer relative been named?

 

[ZaZara]

Forgive me if I’m asking a question that’s already been answered. I’m a little late to the party.

Has the killer relative been named?

That is an interesting question.

From an earlier report (Eve Lazarus):

''Police have always believed that the boys were killed by their mother, who covered them up with her coat and most likely committed suicide soon afterwards.''

The way I understood this is that this was their expert opinion before the boys were identified. After that, I am not so sure, but that is my personal opinion.
Because the mother did not commit suicide. Instead she lived to an old age and apparently never let anything show, other than sadness.

Also, she covered the boys with a coat. It is estimated that they died in autumn.Covering the boys with her coat - if it was hers indeed- would also indicate that the person no longer needs the garment because they are going to end their life soon.

But that did not happen. If the perp was indeed the mother, she returned home. (And never harmed her daughter.)
The family was very poor and the mother would have needed that coat for the winter. I don't get the impression that she had a wardrobe to choose from. Her surroundings would have noticed that the coat was missing.

LE has investigated the archives of the Social Services and came up with nothing ~ sofar. IMO if someone took the boys while pretending to be a social worker, there won't be any records.

What I know about those generations is that traumatic memories may surface later in life because dementia or other illness make it harder to hold things back. An uncle of mine relived his memories of WWII when he was a boy. A great-aunt suddenly came up with stories of sexual abuse by her older brother (long deceased at that time). It takes energy and effort to keep trauma inside, even for the most stoic generations. Perhaps the mother managed to do that, but the family speaks of sadness instead and that is a totally different emotion.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

Forgive me if I’m asking a question that’s already been answered. I’m a little late to the party.

Has the killer relative been named?

They didn't publicly state for certain the killer but there is speculation from LE that it was someone close to the victim (like a parent) but they haven't officially stated. They did say a relative lived near the entrance of Stanley Park but also didn't list who.

Like @ZaZara said too that they originally suspected the mother was the perpetrator. She is long passed away and there isn't any direct evidence to implicate her (that has been released and that we know of anyways). I respect that they aren't pointing the finger at her until they find more evidence. I'm sure someone in the family knows something further (hopefully). The Mom had several brothers and sisters all living not too far away.