Canadian forensic anthropologist Scott Fairgrieve joins Casey Anthony's defense

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residual odor: I have an old coat that I wear to the dog park when it is cold, which is not that often here in Fl. I always carry a few 'treats' in the pocket of this old coat to reward my dogs when they come the first time I call them - which is not always the case! I had to go to Ohio last week unexpectedly and the 'old coat' was the warmest piece of clothing I had, so I wore it. While I was out there, we took my sister's dog to the Vet. I sat in the waiting room and two dogs (both Labs or Lab mixes) came over and tried to get their noses into my coat pocket! There were no treats in my pocket but both dogs 'hit' on the pocket immediately. Perfect example of residual odor - and these weren't trained dogs, they were family pets!
 
I don't think Dr. Fairgrienve did a bad job, I just don't think he told us anything we did not already know about dogs. If they don't actually find a body but alert on a spot, there either was a body there or there wasn't a body there, but dogs are so much better at determining that there could have been a body there which humans cannot always do. No one would argue dogs are not always right but they have a better track record than humans when it comes to sniffers. jmo

Just play the raw clip of his testimony. Wish I could find the whole thing from start to finish. The man was not prepared at all. If you are quoting acronyms then it helps if you know what they mean. [SWGDOG = Scientific Working Group on Dogs & Orthogonal detector Guidelines]
He stumbled through it all. When questioned on his own previous testimony he couldn't remember things or where he got them. Kept going back to that stack of papers (probably copies of things he downloaded of the internet) but never laid his hands on a single document.

He made a comment that he didn't think a layperson reading the same documents he read would be able to form a rational opinion on the abilities of cadaver dogs but your comment:

....I just don't think he told us anything we did not already know about dogs. .....

refutes that statement. I think alot of experts overvalue their education when I see alot of everyday people able to make the same conclusions.

Normally there are plenty of well known bottom-feeding dog experts that are willing to take the defense's paycheck at a heartbeat. The fact that NONE of them stepped up to the plate on this case tells me that the dog evidence is pretty solid.
 
Just play the raw clip of his testimony. Wish I could find the whole thing from start to finish. The man was not prepared at all. If you are quoting acronyms then it helps if you know what they mean. He stumbled through it all. When questioned on his own previous testimony he couldn't remember things or where he got them. Kept going back to that stack of papers (probably copies of things he downloaded of the internet) but never laid his hands on a single document.

He made a comment that he didn't think a layperson reading the same documents he read would be able to form a rational opinion on the abilities of cadaver dogs but your comment:



refutes that statement. I think alot of experts overvalue their education when I see alot of everyday people able to make the same conclusions.

Normally there are plenty of bottom-feeding dog experts that are willing to take the defense's paycheck at a heartbeat. These folks are well known in the community. The fact that NONE of them stepped up to the plate on this case tells me that the dog evidence is pretty solid.

Oh, I was only talking about his initial statements with JB not about the cross. The cross was excellent because it brought out how unprepared he really was. And he gave his opinion which is all he wanted to do. Not sure they are using him at trial, wasn't this just for the Frye Hearing?
 
Oh, I was only talking about his initial statements with JB not about the cross. The cross was excellent because it brought out how unprepared he really was. And he gave his opinion which is all he wanted to do. Not sure they are using him at trial, wasn't this just for the Frye Hearing?

Oops, my mistake. I never found that clip. Can you tell me where to find it? Yes, this is a Frye but very important as the hearing's purpose was to attempt to discredit or show the invalidity of the dogs or handlers in order to get that evidence removed from the trial so that its never discussed or presented to the jury but the sad presentation of this expert almost insures that the dog stuff will move forward.

The only reason I can think of why you would seat this expert is 1) because you could get no one else and an idiot expert is better then none at all or 2) use this as a fishing expedition to see what the prosecution has or how they plan to present it during the trial.
 
residual odor: I have an old coat that I wear to the dog park when it is cold, which is not that often here in Fl. I always carry a few 'treats' in the pocket of this old coat to reward my dogs when they come the first time I call them - which is not always the case! I had to go to Ohio last week unexpectedly and the 'old coat' was the warmest piece of clothing I had, so I wore it. While I was out there, we took my sister's dog to the Vet. I sat in the waiting room and two dogs (both Labs or Lab mixes) came over and tried to get their noses into my coat pocket! There were no treats in my pocket but both dogs 'hit' on the pocket immediately. Perfect example of residual odor - and these weren't trained dogs, they were family pets!

Macushia - I enjoyed your "old coat" post as I too have an "old coat" which I call my dog park coat. But it is also my warmest coat (because dog parks require some hanging around chatting with other owners while the dogs play) and I carry treats in my left hand pocket.

If it is really cold out - I will wear this coat to walk and do shopping and errands, and unfailingly, even though the left hand pocket does not have any treats in it at that time, dogs will pull their owners half a block to sniff that pocket, try to put their noses in it and look at me longingly while I apologize to them for it's "emptiness". Ah, dogs, my favorite friends!
 
It REALLY makes me wonder what type of person would feel comfortable knowingly trying to affect the verdict of a trial about a murdered CHILD when they are so lacking in expertise. It's one thing if he knows his stuff, but it is downright evil for him to knowingly try to sway opinion toward the defense when he knows he is uninformed. Absolutely despicable.

Did we ever conclude how JB found Fairgrieve in October 2008? I can guess he wanted an expert to refute the cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk and the yard, but this guy?
 
Going back and listening again to the expert testimony from Farigrieve, I can't help notice that JB in his unique wisdom, stepped on his own assertion that cadaver dogs can't say what they are alerting to, therefore it falls to the handler or handler bias. He asked the expert if the dog says there is a dead body here and no body is found, that makes a false positive.
No wonder my head hurts.
Also, HHJBP had to deny JB from allowing Fairgrieve to bolster his expert opinion from his own articles. Isn't that what they are trying to say Lowe did? These peeps...
 
Just play the raw clip of his testimony. Wish I could find the whole thing from start to finish. The man was not prepared at all. If you are quoting acronyms then it helps if you know what they mean. [SWGDOG = Scientific Working Group on Dogs & Orthogonal detector Guidelines]
He stumbled through it all. When questioned on his own previous testimony he couldn't remember things or where he got them. Kept going back to that stack of papers (probably copies of things he downloaded of the internet) but never laid his hands on a single document.

He made a comment that he didn't think a layperson reading the same documents he read would be able to form a rational opinion on the abilities of cadaver dogs but your comment:



refutes that statement. I think alot of experts overvalue their education when I see alot of everyday people able to make the same conclusions.

Normally there are plenty of well known bottom-feeding dog experts that are willing to take the defense's paycheck at a heartbeat. The fact that NONE of them stepped up to the plate on this case tells me that the dog evidence is pretty solid.

:twocents: Fantastic post regarding the dog evidence/"testimony" and BBM where IMHO, the REST of the trial evidence AS WE HAVE BEEN PRIVY TO so far ranks within the defense gang's quest to befuddle/discredit/obfuscate.


:twocents: Now your comments that I :innocent: underlined are GOSPEL/EPISPLE/NEW & OLD TESTIMENT combined (and every other cherished religious text!) that 1. an expert should follow and 2. that the Esquires must deflate! Oh heck, the "supreme standing of experts" needs to be deflated by EVERYBODY with functioning synapses! :seeya:
 
Oops, my mistake. I never found that clip. Can you tell me where to find it? Yes, this is a Frye but very important as the hearing's purpose was to attempt to discredit or show the invalidity of the dogs or handlers in order to get that evidence removed from the trial so that its never discussed or presented to the jury but the sad presentation of this expert almost insures that the dog stuff will move forward.

The only reason I can think of why you would seat this expert is 1) because you could get no one else and an idiot expert is better then none at all or 2) use this as a fishing expedition to see what the prosecution has or how they plan to present it during the trial.

I'm watching here:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB6ZWbdJPvI&feature=related[/ame]
All parts are found here as well. Hope this helps.
 
residual odor: I have an old coat that I wear to the dog park when it is cold, which is not that often here in Fl. I always carry a few 'treats' in the pocket of this old coat to reward my dogs when they come the first time I call them - which is not always the case! I had to go to Ohio last week unexpectedly and the 'old coat' was the warmest piece of clothing I had, so I wore it. While I was out there, we took my sister's dog to the Vet. I sat in the waiting room and two dogs (both Labs or Lab mixes) came over and tried to get their noses into my coat pocket! There were no treats in my pocket but both dogs 'hit' on the pocket immediately. Perfect example of residual odor - and these weren't trained dogs, they were family pets!

Yes Perfect example
IMO
A dog's Nose Knows
:twocents:

I found this article
http://www.adn.com/2010/02/06/1127842/a-dogs-nose-is-a-many-splendored.html

A dog's nose is a many-splendored thing

"Dogs live in a world of smell, not sight, writes Alexandra Horowitz, a professor of animal behavior, in her new book "Inside a Dog's Mind: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know."

We humans depend mostly on our eyes to perceive the world around us. We notice shapes, colors, textures, light and shadow.

Our noses don't tell us much. We have a poor sense of smell compared to dogs.

We only have about six millions sensory receptor sites in our noses. The nose of a sheepdog has more than 200 million of these sensory receptor sites. Beagle noses have more than 300 million!"
 
Did we ever conclude how JB found Fairgrieve in October 2008? I can guess he wanted an expert to refute the cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk and the yard, but this guy?

No, none that I have heard.
Someone must have mention Fairgrieve to Baez or Baez did a google search and then went on WIKI :floorlaugh:

In an Orlando Sentinel article I read Fairgrieve stated he had been contacted by Baez and had not even heard of the case.

I have found the story but the links no longer work. it was around January 15, 2009
 
Yes Perfect example
IMO
A dog's Nose Knows
:twocents:

I found this article
http://www.adn.com/2010/02/06/1127842/a-dogs-nose-is-a-many-splendored.html

A dog's nose is a many-splendored thing

"Dogs live in a world of smell, not sight, writes Alexandra Horowitz, a professor of animal behavior, in her new book "Inside a Dog's Mind: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know."

We humans depend mostly on our eyes to perceive the world around us. We notice shapes, colors, textures, light and shadow.

Our noses don't tell us much. We have a poor sense of smell compared to dogs.

We only have about six millions sensory receptor sites in our noses. The nose of a sheepdog has more than 200 million of these sensory receptor sites. Beagle noses have more than 300 million!"

Interesting article. I am going to read her book. :)
 
No, none that I have heard.
Someone must have mention Fairgrieve to Baez or Baez did a google search and then went on WIKI :floorlaugh:

In an Orlando Sentinel article I read Fairgrieve stated he had been contacted by Baez and had not even heard of the case.

I have found the story but the links no longer work. it was around January 15, 2009

Thanks. Yes, they announced it in January. I'm just curious, since Fairgrieve hadn't even testified in a case about cadaver dogs until 2010.
 
I see people quote this but curious as to what is meant. What "scientific controls" would you put in place? What would you like to see? I'm not being snarky but genuinely want to know because people say this but I can't get a definative answer on what they expect.

I won't speak for all cadaver dog handlers but I would want 1-3 other people present to see what the dog does as independent witnesses. What I would not want is a whole gaggle there that could 'push' or prevent the dog from effectively searching. IMHO if your dog is distracted by having a few bystanders present then you are not working enough on your distraction training. I would never want to do a search where I was the only witness to the dog's actions. That said whether or not you can accomodate extra people depends on the size area to be searched cause those people have to stand somewhere and they take up space.
As far as YM's not commenting on the dog's actions, if he is like other LE they've been schooled that only the dog handler reports on what their dog did. Most laymen can't 'read' a dog - body language changes - like the handler can but they can say "the dog sat here" or "the dog scratched there". But its up to the dog handler to answer specific questions on their dog and what the dog did. This is because I would not want someone who does not know my dog or how my dog is trained answering those questions and getting them wrong because then I have to correct it and/or do damage control because JB will play up both versions and, in this situation, confusion is the name of the game. Get the jury confused and they won't know which is accurate.
In other words, if I painted a picture, you probably won't know HOW I painted that picture. All you know is the picture got painted but if you answer questions on how I painted it, you would probably get most of them wrong that I, as the painter, would then have to spend alot of time correcting.
I think the underlying mission of JB is if you can't dazzle them with brilliance - then baffle them with bulls--t.

Cool to read about your experience with this, thank you! I didn't explain myself well and may be using an incorrect term. What I meant is that "blinds" or controls would have to be in place for an alert to be of interest to me. To me, leading a dog to a car is a cue in itself. For example, in the McCann case I still don't consider the dog alerts verifiable/scientific as in useful for in a court of law, but if a dog picks one car out of several cars in a garage on its own without being led, that piques my interest considerably more than if a dog is led straight to a particular car and encouraged to look at and smell that car. In the case where the dog is taken to a particular car for example, who's to say it doesn't finally sit down because it can't think of anything else to do with that car that it's being made to keep looking at and circle. Or because something about this search reminds it of the last time it alerted and got a reward? Or because it once found something and was rewarded when led in the same manner? Or because it smells another smell that is present which we are not aware of that was coincidentally present on a training sample container or object before, or present in another case where it found something, etc. Or it might hop up and paw at the trunk because it figures, ok, let's see what's in here, or he's still having me look here, that must be what my handler wants. I mean dogs are super intelligent, they're not machines you roll to the search object and switch on. They're going to be trying to figure out the entire time, why is he bringing me here, what does he want me to do here? They're going to see every cue from their handler, is my handler interested in this target? (being natural pack hunters). And, after all, do cadaver dogs never sit down other than when they alert? Do they stand at all times? What does a sit mean? What does a look mean? etc

If 3 dog handlers were on hand to see what a dog did, it's still just as subjective. His tail went up half way that means.....his eyes locked on to mine, that means....he acted kind of excited.....I could hear him breathing....etc Totally subjective. When people say what a dog meant, that's hearsay in my opinion, or even a step further. (Unless the dog cues in a place and then this cue is confirmed by remains actually being found.)

In other words, with no remains actually found, it's just not verifiable, or quantifiable, so not suitable to be used as evidence in a court of law imo.

Would I use dogs in case they could aid in finding something, of course, if they were available! Do I think they have amazing talents? Yes! But if they "alert" and then no remains/decomposing materials are found, do we then say, oh that means remains were once here but aren't any more? No, because there's no way of knowing if it's a false positive.

p.s. regarding dogs having an alertness to cues/gestures/behaviors by humans next to them that we are unaware of ourselves-- my personal experience in this is that as a kid our family dog knew that my brother was about to have a seizure several minutes before the seizure occurred and before my brother or any of us had any idea. What did our dog see, hear, smell, who knows?

Oh no, from what I've seen I think LDB is the one who uses the tactics you describe above! I appreciate the fact that Baez never resorts to a rude, mocking, bullying, or "you are stupid" tone, (which LDB even used on Dr. Fairgrieve, a Cambridge educated forensics expert LOL), and doesn't do the "tear them down", or the changing definitions on witnesses midstream, or he "pure confusion" etc. moo To me, it's most shocking when she's questioning the family of the victim, very insensitive at times imo.
 
Are we watching the same hearing????

I'm not completely caught up yet Sleuther on the hearings, but I imagine we've watched most of the same ones! No, I don't care for the prosecution's style at all. Turns me off. I like Baez's straightforward questions about actual evidence. He's just trying to bring out the evidence he has to. The only time it goes on is when a witness flat out refuses to answer for obvious reasons. Like when Dr. V refused to answer the question about chloroform being present in one of the control samples, even though he'd expounded on the subject of chloroform being present in the Pontiac sample LOL (just one of the questions he wouldn't answer.)

My post above was a respnse to a post/question that was put to me earlier
 
Cool to read about your experience with this, thank you! I didn't explain myself well and may be using an incorrect term. What I meant is that "blinds" or controls would have to be in place for an alert to be of interest to me. To me, leading a dog to a car is a cue in itself. For example, in the McCann case I still don't consider the dog alerts verifiable/scientific as in useful for in a court of law, but if a dog picks one car out of several cars in a garage on its own without being led, that piques my interest considerably more than if a dog is led straight to a particular car and encouraged to look at and smell that car. In the case where the dog is taken to a particular car for example, who's to say it doesn't finally sit down because it can't think of anything else to do with that car that it's being made to keep looking at and circle. Or because something about this search reminds it of the last time it alerted and got a reward? Or because it once found something and was rewarded when led in the same manner? Or because it smells another smell that is present which we are not aware of that was coincidentally present on a training sample container or object before, or present in another case where it found something, etc. Or it might hop up and paw at the trunk because it figures, ok, let's see what's in here, or he's still having me look here, that must be what my handler wants. I mean dogs are super intelligent, they're not machines you roll to the search object and switch on. They're going to be trying to figure out the entire time, why is he bringing me here, what does he want me to do here? They're going to see every cue from their handler, is my handler interested in this target? (being natural pack hunters). And, after all, do cadaver dogs never sit down other than when they alert? Do they stand at all times? What does a sit mean? What does a look mean? etc

If 3 dog handlers were on hand to see what a dog did, it's still just as subjective. His tail went up half way that means.....his eyes locked on to mine, that means....he acted kind of excited.....I could hear him breathing....etc Totally subjective. When people say what a dog meant, that's hearsay in my opinion, or even a step further. (Unless the dog cues in a place and then this cue is confirmed by remains actually being found.)

In other words, with no remains actually found, it's just not verifiable, or quantifiable, so not suitable to be used as evidence in a court of law imo.

Would I use dogs in case they could aid in finding something, of course, if they were available! Do I think they have amazing talents? Yes! But if they "alert" and then no remains/decomposing materials are found, do we then say, oh that means remains were once here but aren't any more? No, because there's no way of knowing if it's a false positive.

p.s. regarding dogs having an alertness to cues/gestures/behaviors by humans next to them that we are unaware of ourselves-- my personal experience in this is that as a kid our family dog knew that my brother was about to have a seizure several minutes before the seizure occurred and before my brother or any of us had any idea. What did our dog see, hear, smell, who knows?

Oh no, from what I've seen I think LDB is the one who uses the tactics you describe above! I appreciate the fact that Baez never resorts to a rude, mocking, bullying, or "you are stupid" tone, (which LDB even used on Dr. Fairgrieve, a Cambridge educated forensics expert LOL), and doesn't do the "tear them down", or the changing definitions on witnesses midstream, or he "pure confusion" etc. moo To me, it's most shocking when she's questioning the family of the victim, very insensitive at times imo.

BBM - Problem for the defense is that there is evidence of decomposing material in the trunk of Casey's car... evidence that could only be Casey, Cindy, or Caylee... They didn't find Casey or Cindy's bones scattered across a large area just down the street of that home... they found Caylee's bones.

Have you been over to the Stain thread? Have you looked at the image of what appears to be Caylee's lifeless body in the trunk of that car? Everyone who came into contact with that car made the comment that it smelled like DEATH! And according to Dr. Vass... Squirrels don't smell like decomposition.
 
Are we watching the same hearing????

I'm not completely caught up yet Sleuther on the hearings, but I imagine we've watched most of the same ones! No, I don't care for the prosecution's style at all. Turns me off. I like Baez's straightforward questions about actual evidence. He's just trying to bring out the evidence he has to. The only time it goes on is when a witness flat out refuses to answer for obvious reasons. Like when Dr. V refused to answer the question about chloroform being present in one of the control samples, even though he'd expounded on the subject of chloroform being present in the Pontiac sample LOL (just one of the questions he wouldn't answer.)

My post above was a respnse to a post/question that was put to me earlier

Above BBM

:waitasec: Again, respectfully, are you SURE you are watching the same hearings we are? :confused:

:cow:
 
I don't think Dr. Fairgrienve did a bad job, I just don't think he told us anything we did not already know about dogs. If they don't actually find a body but alert on a spot, there either was a body there or there wasn't a body there, but dogs are so much better at determining that there could have been a body there which humans cannot always do. No one would argue dogs are not always right but they have a better track record than humans when it comes to sniffers. jmo

I can see the argument on whether the dog actually finds a body, however, in the deposition I believe for Furton (only slightly o/t here) they discussed a body in a field. I thought then, what if animals had already dragged it away, and I thought that was what the SA was suggesting could be a factor in the discussion.
As to this case, I would submit, that even though the dogs did not locate Caylee's remains in the backyard, there are other factors to be considered, namely the borrowing of the shovel and the place in the yard where someone had started to dig a hole. 12 inch by 5 inch, I believe?
 

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