Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, husband arrested for abuse, Oct 2017 #2

[human]

I have zero idea of what he was like before. It sounds like she was into sadistic sex in their relationship in the beginning. To me it is sadistic to want to hurt someone else and to get pleasure from it.

It could be like Patti Hearst for Josh or any of the deluded people who were with the SLA. To me, Patti was broken down by her captivity. I never felt her guilty .

There is no way that both Josh and Caitlin are not totally messed up and need intense counseling.

 

[otto]

His attempt to sodomize Caitlan against her will is rape. Spousal rape has been illegal in Canada for 34 years. Joshua Boyle is an intelligent man and not insane. He knew the law and broke the law. He should be sentenced for his crimes like other rapists. He shouldn't receive special treatment from a Canadian court because he was a Taliban-want-to-be and accidentally became their prisoner for 5 years.
Ontario ruling shines spotlight on misconceptions about marital rape

Josh also wanted Caitlan to go onto Skellington forums and find teenagers for him to sexually exploit. He's dangerous and needs to be removed from society.

What is Skellington forums?

 

[Intermezzo]

What is Skellington forums?

Christie Blatchford: Boyle said it was ‘my duty as his wife to find women for him,’ Caitlan Coleman testifies

One, dated Dec. 6, 2017, simply read: “Skellington forums.”

Asked what that meant, Coleman said that “for a large portion of captivity and since being released,” Boyle had made it clear to her he “was not happy with me as his wife … and my duty as his wife was to find (other) women for him.”

Skellington was a cartoon character in a Tim Burton movie called “The Nightmare Before Christmas,” and she said, the two-word order from Boyle meant that she should seek out those fan forums, mostly populated by “teenage girls… He wanted me to go on these forums and seek out women for him.”

She didn’t do it, she said, but she certainly knew what it meant.
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I wonder if police found any internet history from the home computer or on his cellphone to see if he went onto these forums.
What their text exchanges were?
We have no idea what evidence they found other than the very few photos we have seen reported such as the List and the BDSM equipment.
Other evidence has not been shown to the public via media reports.

 

[otto]

Christie Blatchford: Boyle said it was ‘my duty as his wife to find women for him,’ Caitlan Coleman testifies

One, dated Dec. 6, 2017, simply read: “Skellington forums.”

Asked what that meant, Coleman said that “for a large portion of captivity and since being released,” Boyle had made it clear to her he “was not happy with me as his wife … and my duty as his wife was to find (other) women for him.”

Skellington was a cartoon character in a Tim Burton movie called “The Nightmare Before Christmas,” and she said, the two-word order from Boyle meant that she should seek out those fan forums, mostly populated by “teenage girls… He wanted me to go on these forums and seek out women for him.”

She didn’t do it, she said, but she certainly knew what it meant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if police found any internet history from the home computer or on his cellphone to see if he went onto these forums.
What their text exchanges were?
We have no idea what evidence they found other than the very few photos we have seen reported such as the List and the BDSM equipment.
Other evidence has not been shown to the public via media reports.

Very strange. If it is something he wanted, he would have pursued it himself. If not, perhaps it how he inflicted psychological abuse.

I noticed this claim that he was not the same before and after the 5 years in captivity:

"Coleman has remained composed throughout the describing of her own protracted degradation — how verbal cruelty, when they were first involved as teenagers, progressed to physical assault during the latter half of their captivity and then blossomed into something truly malevolent during their first months of freedom."​

Christie Blatchford: Boyle said it was ‘my duty as his wife to find women for him,’ Caitlan Coleman testifies

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

It doesn't matter if Josh became more cruel after he escaped Afghanistan. Josh is a smart man. He knew the law about marital rape and he broke it. He also knew it was wrong to order Caitlan to commit felonies for him. Ordering Caitlan to find him teenage sexual partners should be a felony, imo.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Very strange. If it is something he wanted, he would have pursued it himself. If not, perhaps it how he inflicted psychological abuse.

I noticed this claim that he was not the same before and after the 5 years in captivity:

"Coleman has remained composed throughout the describing of her own protracted degradation — how verbal cruelty, when they were first involved as teenagers, progressed to physical assault during the latter half of their captivity and then blossomed into something truly malevolent during their first months of freedom."​

Christie Blatchford: Boyle said it was ‘my duty as his wife to find women for him,’ Caitlan Coleman testifies

That's not true that "if teenage sex partners were something he wanted, he would have pursued it himself". Josh is a smart man who wants to avoid arrest. He wanted Caitlan to bring girls to him so he would have less chance of being arrested. He's a pedophile and a domestic abuser, imo.

 

[otto]

That's not true that "if teenage sex partners were something he wanted, he would have pursued it himself". Josh is a smart man who wants to avoid arrest. He wanted Caitlan to bring girls to him so he would have less chance of being arrested. He's a pedophile and a domestic abuser, imo.

Pedophile? Has he been charged with anything like that?

 

[otto]

It doesn't matter if Josh became more cruel after he escaped Afghanistan. Josh is a smart man. He knew the law about marital rape and he broke it. He also knew it was wrong to order Caitlan to commit felonies for him. Ordering Caitlan to find him teenage sexual partners should be a felony, imo.

I do think it makes a difference in the trial whether 5 years of torture and captivity are responsible for who he is today. Coleman has said that the abuse started after 2-3 years of captivity and continued after their release.

I also understand that not everyone agrees that being kidnapped and tortured for that length of time has any bearing on a person's mental health.

 

[realanastasia]

I do think it makes a difference in the trial whether 5 years of torture and captivity are responsible for who he is today. Coleman has said that the abuse started after 2-3 years of captivity and continued after their release.

I also understand that not everyone agrees that being kidnapped and tortured for that length of time has any bearing on a person's mental health.

Caitlan was clearly held against her will and there is (I believe) evidence that she was tortured in captivity; where is the evidence that Josh was tortured? TIA.

From the Macleans article here, What really happened to Joshua Boyle and his family - Macleans.ca
a quote I found about Coleman’s torture is especially illuminating in regards to Boyle’s narcissism:

“Two months later, Boyle said, Abdurrahman and two of his men had had enough of his accusations. They decided to teach Boyle a lesson: they raped Coleman.”

She’s the one who was sexually assaulted, but Boyle frames it as having been intended to punish him. Boyle uses a similar frame when discussing the “forced abortion”/miscarriage—like HE was the one who was supposed to be hurt by the loss of the pregnancy. He expresses no concern in either context to the journalist for how Coleman, the sexual assault victim and person who had to physically endure the pain of a miscarriage, felt—which isn’t surprising as it’s obvious that he thought of her as merely an appendage to himself. I suppose some folks here would argue that she “consented” (by virtue of having married Boyle) to be seen (and treated) by him in this utterly dehumanized way, right?

 

[otto]

Caitlan was clearly held against her will and there is (I believe) evidence that she was tortured in captivity; where is the evidence that Josh was tortured? TIA.

From the Macleans article here, What really happened to Joshua Boyle and his family - Macleans.ca
a quote I found about Coleman’s torture is especially illuminating in regards to Boyle’s narcissism:

“Two months later, Boyle said, Abdurrahman and two of his men had had enough of his accusations. They decided to teach Boyle a lesson: they raped Coleman.”

She’s the one who was sexually assaulted, but Boyle frames it as having been intended to punish him. Boyle uses a similar frame when discussing the “forced abortion”/miscarriage—like HE was the one who was supposed to be hurt by the loss of the pregnancy. He expresses no concern in either context to the journalist for how Coleman, the sexual assault victim and person who had to physically endure the pain of a miscarriage, felt—which isn’t surprising as it’s obvious that he thought of her as merely an appendage to himself. I suppose some folks here would argue that she “consented” (by virtue of having married Boyle) to be seen (and treated) by him in this utterly dehumanized way, right?

Boyle and his wife were kidnapped, tortured, beaten, and traumatized for 5 years. Boyle is not the kidnapper, he is a victim of the kidnappers.

"Coleman described their situation ... The family was subject to mistreatment and violence during their captivity. ... There were times Boyle and Coleman were separated and beaten."​

The story behind this couple's kidnapping

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Pedophile? Has he been charged with anything like that?

No, he hasn't been charged with this yet.

Caitlan refused to act on his demand to find him teenage girls to sexually exploit.

 

[otto]

No, he hasn't been charged with this yet.

Caitlan refused to act on his demand to find him teenage girls to sexually exploit.

Exactly. He is not a pedophile. There are no charges related to pedophilia. There is no evidence of pedophilia. The term "pedophile" does not apply to Boyle.

 

[kmclaren]

I was looking for some news on this and came across this article posted just now, going to read details but headline reads: "Former hostage Joshua Boyle's trial likely suspended — potentially for years"...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/joshua-boyle-trial-april-24-1.5107629

 

[MsJosie]

Wow....now all wait

 

[Satchie]

I do think it makes a difference in the trial whether 5 years of torture and captivity are responsible for who he is today. Coleman has said that the abuse started after 2-3 years of captivity and continued after their release.

I also understand that not everyone agrees that being kidnapped and tortured for that length of time has any bearing on a person's mental health.

Then the kidnapping is an issue Boyle should have raised in his own defense.

The only thing the prosecution considers is whether a crime or crimes were committed on x date in Canada, and whether police have sufficent evidence to convict.

Let's say someone was stealing from someone else for years. They got away with it. They both move to Canada. Finally the person being fleeced realizes what's happening, and reports the latest instance of theft to police, with evidence.

Police don't care about past history, what may have caused it, what made it worse. They charge the person with the crime they have clear evidence of, that happened in Canada on a particular date.

Maybe the defense in that circumstance would argue 'I didn't consider it stealing, they'd given me gifts plus I'd been through hard times", etc etc That's their defense, then see if the jury/judge believe them. Or possibly. the verdict would be guilty but the sentence would reflect those circumstances.

But that's not the defense Boyle is making. Why isn't he?

I think Coleman is concerned about what he will claim, that will get published and what her children will read on the internet in a few years time. To me, it looks like his defense strategy is yet more bullying.

 

[Intermezzo]

Bill C-51 was given Royal Assent and enacted into law in Dec 2018
The amendments in Sections 276 and 278 are what is being used by Caitlin (and her lawyer) in this case.

An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Department of Justice Act and to make consequential amendments to another Act
ASSENTED TO
DECEMBER 13, 2018
BILL C-51
Government Bill (House of Commons) C-51 (42-1) - Royal Assent - An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Department of Justice Act and to make consequential amendments to another Act - Parliament of Canada

This article by Christie Blatchford, it is long and and gives some more information on the trial that I had not heard reported and did not know about yet.

christie-blatchford-what-stopped-the-boyle-trial-could-put-every-single-sex-assault-case-in-limbo APRIL 24, 2019

Christie Blatchford: What stopped the Boyle trial could put every single sex assault case 'in limbo'

.. amendments made late last year to sexual assault law in Sections .276 and .278 of the Criminal Code, complainants like the 33-year-old Coleman were for the first time given an automatic right to be represented by their own lawyers and for those lawyers to be able to make submissions.

In other words, the new rules, which deal with attempts by defence lawyers to introduce evidence of a complainant’s other sexual activity, grant complainants formal “standing” or status.

There are other changes – one expands the definition of sexual activity evidence to include emails, text messages and the like; another forces defence lawyers to disclose in advance any private records of the complainants they may have.

 

[Intermezzo]

I was looking for some news on this and came across this article posted just now, going to read details but headline reads: "Former hostage Joshua Boyle's trial likely suspended — potentially for years"...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/joshua-boyle-trial-april-24-1.5107629

Thanks

The Crown had not finished its Case in Chief and there were more witnesses to testify before the Defense had their turn to present their case.
Now we wait.

It was Caitlin's lawyer, Ian Carter, who asked that this case be suspended while Superior Court reviews the trial judges ruling.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/joshua-boyle-trial-april-24-1.5107629

But on Wednesday, Carter told court that after further research, he plans to file a certiorari application with Ontario Superior Court instead, either later Wednesday or first thing Thursday, which will automatically suspend the trial while the Superior Court reviews Doody's ruling and decides whether or not to quash it.

A tentative hearing date in Superior Court has been set for mid-May, Carter added.

Once a Superior Court decision is made, Carter could decide to appeal to the Ontario Court of Appeal. He could then also seek leave to appeal the Ontario Appeal Court's decision to the Supreme Court.

 

[Intermezzo]

This trial may be the first time the amendments to sections 276 and 278 in Bill C-51 has been used and challenged.

2 things the Defense, IMO, MAY do (based on the statements they have made to reporters)

1) Defense MAY file a Jordan application
(though the Judge on this case is taking steps to try and avoid a Jordan application or be prepared in case the Defense files an application)

2) Defense MAY seek to have Boyle's bail conditions modified or changed (Defense have, since trial suspension, been voicing how restrictive Boyle's bail conditions are and now how much longer he will have to follow the current bail conditions because the trial is suspended)

Boyle trial suspended after Coleman challenges ruling allowing questions about her sexual history APRIL 25, 2019

Boyle trial suspended after Coleman challenges ruling allowing questions about her sexual history

Eric Granger, a member of Boyle’s defence team, said the long delay is prejudicial to his client and could give rise to a Jordan application to have his case tossed out for unreasonable delays.

In the Jordan decision, the Supreme Court said cases in the Ontario Court of Justice should be completed within 18 months.
It has already been almost 16 months since Boyle’s arrest.

“It’s premature to be drawing any conclusions at this point,” Granger told reporters, “but obviously, delay is what the Jordan decision speaks to. We’ll have to see what happens from here.”

It’s highly unusual, he added, for a case to be suspended under such circumstances.

“It could be upwards of three years wading through that process — all over a ruling on evidence made by the trial judge in the middle of a trial,” Granger said.

Boyle’s current bail conditions severely restrict his freedom, he said, and require him to pay for an electronic monitoring bracelet.

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/joshua-boyle-trial-april-24-1.5107629 UPDATED APRIL 25, 2019

Former hostage Joshua Boyle's trial likely suspended — potentially for years

One of Boyle's defence lawyers, Eric Granger, told court that any delay in the case would represent a "serious prejudice" to Boyle, who must endure the "continued deprivation of his liberty" under strict bail conditions, including ankle bracelet monitoring that Boyle pays for himself on a monthly basis.

Outside court, Granger said it's "premature" to say whether the defence team plans to file a Jordan application, arguing Boyle's right to a trial in a reasonable timeframe has been violated.

To avoid unnecessary delay, Doody ordered he be notified within two working days of the decisions made in any court with respect to Carter's application, and has asked that all three teams of lawyers write him a letter around the first day of each month, starting in June, about any steps that have been taken to set court dates.

Doody told court he wants a written record of the progress made each month in case Boyle's defence files a Jordan application. In Ontario court, the reasonable length of a trial has been set at 18 months.

 

[Intermezzo]

What the Shamji and Boyle trials teach us about domestic abuse by Christie Blatchford

 

[Intermezzo]

I don't remember, but if anyone had asked previously who was paying for Caitlan's attorney (Ian Carter) here is the answer in this article.

Christie Blatchford: What stopped the Boyle trial could put every single sex assault case ‘in limbo’ UPDATED APRIL 25, 2019

But since then, Carter told the judge Wednesday in a brief proceeding, he has changed his mind and will proceed instead by bringing a certiorari application — certiorari is a so-called “prerogative writ,” which is a form of judicial review and immediately suspends the trial — to Superior Court.
(It is up to the provinces to decide if they will pay for complainants’ lawyers. Ontario, prosecutor Meaghan Cunningham said, has decided it will. But Carter said it isn’t clear if the province will cover the cost of the certiorari application.)