Casey and Family Psych Profile #11

[sappysoul]

People with Personality Disorders(PDs) are very good at playing "normal" when they need to and can be very convincing. Part of the problem of diagnosing someone with a PD is that the behaviors or characteristics of PDs are in many ways "normal behaviors" what makes them abnormal is that they are taken to an unhealthy level. (hope I am making sense here). So, it is no surprise to me that she could get thru an interview or two with a psychologist and be seen as normal. I doubt she would be able to escape a diagnosis if they observed her on a more regular basis. MOO

It is impossible to diagnose a PD after one interview IMO. You would need a complete history compiled from multiple sources as well as several interviews with the person. Can you imagine sitting down with Casey and having little or no information from others? Mental health professionals cannot read minds or magically recognize lie from truth. You can only work with what the person brings to you and in Casey's case reality would be in short supply. You have to look at patterns of behavior and that couldn't be accomplished, at least not well, in just a couple of interviews.

 

[SATA]

After seeing and hearing Lee´s testimony yesterday, I am of the impression that he is every bit as disturbed as Casey. I have no idea what those parents did to make their children turn out this way!
I hope that Lee gets some help - it is too late for Casey.

 

[DIXIECAT]

After seeing and hearing Lee´s testimony yesterday, I am of the impression that he is every bit as disturbed as Casey. I have no idea what those parents did to make their children turn out this way!
I hope that Lee gets some help - it is too late for Casey.

I've been reading the "TYPED LETTERS" thread (for the first time)-- the jail letters Casey wrote to "Cookie"-- I'm not so sure that it is "too late" for Casey. Some of her comments and insights are very surprising. I will be seeing her in a different light, now...it's not going to be so much fun "hating" her anymore, although I still believe she is guilty. I do wish she and her family had sought counseling a long time ago... maybe Caylee would still be alive. MOO

 

[OneLostGrl]

After seeing and hearing Lee´s testimony yesterday, I am of the impression that he is every bit as disturbed as Casey. I have no idea what those parents did to make their children turn out this way!
I hope that Lee gets some help - it is too late for Casey.

I think Lee is what everyone says Casey is. IMO if anyone in that family is a psychopath it's Lee. He plays like he's on his family's side but talks such crap about them it's not even funny. Almost everything bad about that family has come from Lee's mouth (the choking, Casey's stealing, lying. telling that Cindy DID send Dom out into the woods etc) But at the same time It's "Lee and casey are close, he's the one she confides in, they are soo close" and he comes running to mommy's rescue like a knight in shining armour when Caseys gonna be at the club, when the car is found.. when Casey goes to jail he moves back home. He plays like he's on LE's side, then goes and visits Casey is jail and plays lawyer and PI and acts like he's on her side.. then he goes to Dom and pretends like he hates LE and LP when he's talking to them on the sly. He doesn't lose his cool even at times when most people would.. he's ripping up dog lady's sign and dumping her water but he's calm as can be, even talking to a news reporter as he's doing it all. He's was angry enough to dump this dogs water out and break this lady's sign but he's not angry at all outwardly. The dude is a chameleon.. he does what he needs to do to fit in where he's at. IMO he has his own agenda which has little to do with saving his sister.

There I finally said it "out loud".

 

[OneLostGrl]

I've been reading the "TYPED LETTERS" thread (for the first time)-- the jail letters Casey wrote to "Cookie"-- I'm not so sure that it is "too late" for Casey. Some of her comments and insights are very surprising. I will be seeing her in a different light, now...it's not going to be so much fun "hating" her anymore, although I still believe she is guilty. I do wish she and her family had sought counseling a long time ago... maybe Caylee would still be alive. MOO

I agree.. we are in a very small class by ourselves lol

 

[OneLostGrl]

Every family is dysfunctional in some way or another. This family is an extreme case. I dislike the parents for what they've tried to do to innocent people associated with this case but I don't believe Cindy was a bad mother to Casey.

Cindy seems to have worked very hard to provide for her family. Casey was given shelter (and a nice one at that!), good food, a car, a phone etc. The parents provided everything for Caylee as well. There are so many people who don't have the comfort of even basic necessities. If Cindy was such a bully and George was an incompetent father then Casey had the option of getting a job and moving out. Instead she chose to stay at home, use her parents' resources and then portrays herself as a victim. Please. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, Casey.

When loving and doing things for your child turns into doing for your child what they should be doing for themselves ( providing for themselves and their child for example, especially if they have a full time job as they claim), it's turning into enabling and isn't healthy for anyone living in the home, least of all the person being enabled.. it's showing them they don't have to do anything to get everything. When loving and doing things for someone turn into removing the consequences of their actions or trying to fix the consequences to be in their favor, it's becoming enabling and enabling is extremely dysfunctional. When you avoid confronting them and their behavior while letting the behavior continue (letting them continue to steal hundreds of dollars a day from your bank account while you just move money into the bank to cover it) because you don't want to have to deal with whatever their reaction will be, that has become enabling and the person you are enabling comes to understand that you no longer require their respect and will still give them anything they want to take from you. And the longer you let it continue the less they respect you. Why move out.. she had everything she wanted and didn't have to give anything of herself in return.

 

[Mulegirl]

If you read my post I wrote "Help should be available if a person, no matter what they have done, asks for it and is willing to work for it." We assume she won't ask for it but we don't know that.

I agree about help should be available, but, as a survivor of living with people with PDs, I have to tell you, that people with PD almost NEVER want help, because the problem is not them, it's everyone else (in their minds). ICA shows every sign of having one or more of many PDs. There are both biological and sociological factors involved in the development of a PD. MOO -- she has both factors working against her, so is one of the least likely to EVER desire "help" for having problems she'll likely never think she has.

Those people, like me, who ignore the fact that these people don't WANT help, put themselves at risk for being dragged down by the vortex and having their own lives ruined as well. You CANNOT help them. Even if science is able to find pharmaceutical treatments (seemingly unlikely to me at this point, and I've done quite a bit of study on the neurobiological bases for many mental health disorders), we would face the problem of forcing treatment on people that don't want it. Should we? That's a sticky problem best left for long discussions elsewhere.

And all that is beside the point since, legally, there is a standard by which all defendants are held -- no matter what the potential psychological problems, if they are determined to be conscious of right vs. wrong and have knowledge that their crime is wrong in the eyes of society, they are culpable. ICA's actions AND comments to police (such as at Universal when she fessed up to not actually working there) clearly indicate she meets that standard of awareness of right vs. wrong.

MOO

P.S. way the rest of the family walks on eggshells around ICA (just watch the jailhouse videos) is a HUGE clue to a PD in action.

 

[Mulegirl]

I'm reading posts about how the mental health community will be studying the Anthony's for years to come so I just wanted to say again that "family's" like the Anthony's are really not that rare. The only reason we know about their dysfunction is because of Caylee's death.. otherwise they would have lived quietly in their dysfunction like millions of other dysfunctional family's.

Thought I'd re-post these links-

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28642

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28645&cn=8

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28646&cn=8

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201105/the-narcissistic-family-portrait

Sadly, narcissism is on a catastrophic rise in the U.S. due to overdoing the "you're the best -- trophies for everyone" mentality born of trying to boost the "self-esteem" of children. IMO, too many parents wound up treating their children as if they could do no wrong, and it's already biting society in the butt big time.

Neuropsychiatrists are learning more and more every day, and one thing that is now know is that there are certain time frames for instilling empathy and developing social skills. If, during that time, a child/teen is treated as if they can do no wrong, IMO we run a very real risk of someone that will be socially crippled by the lack of formation of neural pathways and incomplete or poor development of particular regions of their brain. That could mean that for the rest of their lives they will be unable to feel true empathy and understanding that others aren't there to serve them and that the world will not always bow to their wishes. And this is in people with normal brain development. If you toss in a genetic predisposition to a PD, you wind up with a very dangerous person, indeed. This is what (MOO) I believe happened with ICA.

It's downright frightening -- picture thousands or more people willing to off anyone, even their own child, if that person is standing between them and what they want -- and leads to my earlier comment on the sticky ethical problem of treating people who do not think they need treatment and do not want it.

 

[rose222]

thanks for your insights, OneLostGrl. It just makes me so mad that Casey had options, she had choices but she chose to live a life of lies and deceit.

Dixiecat...I've read those letters many, many times. Which parts of her letters are you talking about exactly?

 

[claudicici]

When loving and doing things for your child turns into doing for your child what they should be doing for themselves ( providing for themselves and their child for example, especially if they have a full time job as they claim), it's turning into enabling and isn't healthy for anyone living in the home, least of all the person being enabled.. it's showing them they don't have to do anything to get everything. When loving and doing things for someone turn into removing the consequences of their actions or trying to fix the consequences to be in their favor, it's becoming enabling and enabling is extremely dysfunctional. When you avoid confronting them and their behavior while letting the behavior continue (letting them continue to steal hundreds of dollars a day from your bank account while you just move money into the bank to cover it) because you don't want to have to deal with whatever their reaction will be, that has become enabling and the person you are enabling comes to understand that you no longer require their respect and will still give them anything they want to take from you. And the longer you let it continue the less they respect you. Why move out.. she had everything she wanted and didn't have to give anything of herself in return.

I think CA takes enabling to another level.It's like she disabled KC to have any autonomy at all.It's like the "soul stealer" parenting that is talked about in one of your links.I just don't see KC as being "spoiled",it looks that way from the outside but IMO KC never felt good enough for CA at all.I don't see her as narcissistic either,IMO CA is the narcissist.I see KC as a very immature person with very low self esteem that she constantly tries to hide behind that big smile.I can see how jealous she was of little Caylee.
ITA with you about Lee.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree about help should be available, but, as a survivor of living with people with PDs, I have to tell you, that people with PD almost NEVER want help, because the problem is not them, it's everyone else (in their minds). ICA shows every sign of having one or more of many PDs. There are both biological and sociological factors involved in the development of a PD. MOO -- she has both factors working against her, so is one of the least likely to EVER desire "help" for having problems she'll likely never think she has.

Those people, like me, who ignore the fact that these people don't WANT help, put themselves at risk for being dragged down by the vortex and having their own lives ruined as well. You CANNOT help them. Even if science is able to find pharmaceutical treatments (seemingly unlikely to me at this point, and I've done quite a bit of study on the neurobiological bases for many mental health disorders), we would face the problem of forcing treatment on people that don't want it. Should we? That's a sticky problem best left for long discussions elsewhere.

And all that is beside the point since, legally, there is a standard by which all defendants are held -- no matter what the potential psychological problems, if they are determined to be conscious of right vs. wrong and have knowledge that their crime is wrong in the eyes of society, they are culpable. ICA's actions AND comments to police (such as at Universal when she fessed up to not actually working there) clearly indicate she meets that standard of awareness of right vs. wrong.

MOO

P.S. way the rest of the family walks on eggshells around ICA (just watch the jailhouse videos) is a HUGE clue to a PD in action.

I completely agree with you that Casey probably has one or more personality disorders going on and I also agree completely that treating personality disorders is very difficult and that they rarely ask for help or admit they have a problem. I just don't think anyone, no matter what their issue, no matter what their social status, no matter what their crime, place of residence (a home, homeless, jail, prison, an institution a hospital etc) or diagnosis or lack there-of- should be denied treatment if they ask for it. Because some do eventually recognize they have a problem and legitimately want help and work hard toward recovery and to stay well. My mother is a good example of this.. she was hell itself when I was growing up but she came to realize and admit she has a problem (diagnosed with borderline personality disorder) and got help.. she has worked hard to stay well, she still has issues but has improved dramatically. There IS hope for people with personality disorders and they need to know that if they are ever going to come forward.. the stigma- the people saying that they can't get well, they can't change, that they were BORN this way and can't change is the biggest thing that keeps them from seeking help IMO. We as a society can't give up on all because some don't or won't seek help.

I know that Casey knows right from wrong.. I know what personality disorders are. I'm not trying to say the girl should get off or be able to use any type of mental illness defense what-so-ever. I've been probably one of the loudest people here saying no way should she get a mental illness defense.. I have a pretty good grasp on mental illness VS personality disorders, as I said, my mother has a personality disorder... my step father was diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder and I have Bipolar disorder. I am not one of those who think mental illness should be used as an excuse for anything. All I'm saying I think she should be able to get mental heath care in prison if she asks for it. Every single person placed on this earth deserves an opportunity to be mentally well even if that can only be achieved in prison.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I think CA takes enabling to another level.It's like she disabled KC to have any autonomy at all.It's like the "soul stealer" parenting that is talked about in one of your links.I just don't see KC as being "spoiled",it looks that way from the outside but IMO KC never felt good enough for CA at all.I don't see her as narcissistic either,IMO CA is the narcissist.I see KC as a very immature person with very low self esteem that she constantly tries to hide behind that big smile.I can see how jealous she was of little Caylee.
ITA with you about Lee.

Learned helplessness. You are literally taught to believe you are helpless without the person who has always taken care of you. You can't do it as good as, as pretty as, as quick as them. I don't think casey is a narcissist either, I think she hates herself.. I think she feels unloved, unloveable and unaccepted. How can you not when your mother creates a whole other life story about you to fit her picture perfect word that's acceptable to her and ignores who and what you really are?! to the extent of allowing you to steal from her, lie to her, whatever, doesn't matter so long as she can keep her fairytale for outsiders. All the While she's saying she loves you unconditionally but she can't even accept your truth. I don't like who Casey let herself become but I get her rage.. I don't see the treatment she received as spoiling either, not in the least!!

 

[Andy H.]

George and Cindy--wanting to believe her, wanting to believe she was a good mother, and giving way through the years to their precious--has led to where they find themselves now.
Misery and unfathomal loss is their reward while still having their beloved daughter in their world--a daughter who demonstrates how much she loves them in return by causing the death of an innocent child, Caylee, who deserved much more than any of these people in this family.
This same daughter who caused their misery has now returned as their most precious which is what this daughter wanted all along.

 

[claudicici]

Learned helplessness. You are literally taught to believe you are helpless without the person who has always taken care of you. You can't do it as good as, as pretty as, as quick as them. I don't think casey is a narcissist either, I think she hates herself.. I think she feels unloved, unloveable and unaccepted. How can you not when your mother creates a whole other life story about you to fit her picture perfect word that's acceptable to her and ignores who and what you really are?! to the extent of allowing you to steal from her, lie to her, whatever, doesn't matter so long as she can keep her fairytale for outsiders. All the While she's saying she loves you unconditionally but she can't even accept your truth. I don't like who Casey let herself become but I get her rage.. I don't see the treatment she received as spoiling either, not in the least!!

....as almost always I completely 100% agree with you :goodpost:

 

[DIXIECAT]

thanks for your insights, OneLostGrl. It just makes me so mad that Casey had options, she had choices but she chose to live a life of lies and deceit.

Dixiecat...I've read those letters many, many times. Which parts of her letters are you talking about exactly?

I'm not even half way through with the letters, so I'm reserving a final opinion until I finish them... that being said, I am facinated by her imagination and quick wit. Also, she is certainly grasping the fundamentals of Christian theology-- whether with her heart, or simply with her mind, is yet to be determned. Only God knows.

 

[pip]

I believe that all that has happened is karma coming back to bite CA in the tush. In my viewpoint, CA is the #1 toxic force in the family dysfunction and the root cause of Caylee's demise. Yes, ICA did the deed, but CA is the driving force behind the all angst and illness in the Anthony family. She personifies BPD, narcissism and all the destructive/manipulative behaviors associated.
George is a co-dependent, powerless zombie...and apparently finds comfort in this role, as even a tragedy as powerful as the murder of his grandchild by his own daughter has not blown him into reality. If anything, it has made him even more co-dependent and zombified. Watching him next to CA in court and in all their media interviews of the past is fascinating/pathetic at the same time. He is like a little beaten puppydog waiting for his next cue from his master, CA.
Unreal.

 

[rose222]

I'm not even half way through with the letters, so I'm reserving a final opinion until I finish them... that being said, I am facinated by her imagination and quick wit. Also, she is certainly grasping the fundamentals of Christian theology-- whether with her heart, or simply with her mind, is yet to be determned. Only God knows.

Dixiecat...please let us know your thoughts once you're done reading the letters. I, for one, am very curious.

 

[sagsag]

Sadly, narcissism is on a catastrophic rise in the U.S. due to overdoing the "you're the best -- trophies for everyone" mentality born of trying to boost the "self-esteem" of children. IMO, too many parents wound up treating their children as if they could do no wrong, and it's already biting society in the butt big time.

This is a very good point. Also remember that Casey came of age right when AOL/IM/Myspace stuff was just coming around. Sites like Myspace definitely promote narcissism. You can create your own idealized personality and control exactly what you show and reveal about yourself. Casey has probably grown up communicating with complete strangers online based solely on her looks and how she presented herself online.

 

[crimesnooper]

Sadly, narcissism is on a catastrophic rise in the U.S. due to overdoing the "you're the best -- trophies for everyone" mentality born of trying to boost the "self-esteem" of children. IMO, too many parents wound up treating their children as if they could do no wrong, and it's already biting society in the butt big time.

Neuropsychiatrists are learning more and more every day, and one thing that is now know is that there are certain time frames for instilling empathy and developing social skills. If, during that time, a child/teen is treated as if they can do no wrong, IMO we run a very real risk of someone that will be socially crippled by the lack of formation of neural pathways and incomplete or poor development of particular regions of their brain. That could mean that for the rest of their lives they will be unable to feel true empathy and understanding that others aren't there to serve them and that the world will not always bow to their wishes. And this is in people with normal brain development. If you toss in a genetic predisposition to a PD, you wind up with a very dangerous person, indeed. This is what (MOO) I believe happened with ICA.

It's downright frightening -- picture thousands or more people willing to off anyone, even their own child, if that person is standing between them and what they want -- and leads to my earlier comment on the sticky ethical problem of treating people who do not think they need treatment and do not want it.

I could not agree more with your post. When I was in HS, many, many moons ago, I told my art teacher I wanted to include material from her class in a portfolio to get into art school. Looking schocked, she asked why in the world would I consider that. She told me in no uncertain terms,I had no talent and I should run, not walk, to take the SATs for college.LOL She was soooo right. Can you imagine the uproar today if a teacher did not subscribe to the you can do anything you want in life and actaully told someone they had no talent???

 

[Grammy Jean]

I agree.. we are in a very small class by ourselves lol

Where can I find the Typed Letters????//