Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

[OneLostGrl]

OT but did you ever read the book Icy Sparks? It is about a girl with Tourette's in the 50's. wowza.

No, but thanks for mentioning it- I'll have to get it! Even with the knowledge of how those people with epilepsy were treated I can't imagine how people with Tourettes were treated. very sad- I am very thankful in how far we have come since those days!

 

[nancy botwin]

Several things come immediately to mind. I would love to have read their conclusions about the study where they would have to offer alternate interpretations about their results. It certainly couldn't have been a perfect experiment. And was it replicated at all?

I can think of some alternate interpretations off the top of my head:

1. The psychiatrists were poor at diagnosis.
2. Situational expectation- that the experimenters are not measuring true bias but expectations about people who seek treatment in a hospital.
3. Faking symptoms does not mean they would not be taken seriously;
a) What tests were given to everyone? On what were the diagnoses based? Self-report is not enough.
b)It makes sense that patients would suss out the impostors because they interacted with them way more than the docs, on a day to day basis, and are very familiar with nuances of behaviour and symptoms.
4. It sounds as if they used, "There is confirmation bias" as the null hypothesis.
5. I'm not seeing a control group here.
6. The experiment induced bias because the docs were told to expect impostors.

(And what the other posters have added)

Not a well thought out experiment, IMO and it proved very little. I imagine the construct is way more sophisticated now.

Actually, I find the fact that the study shows that genuine patients recognised the impostors the most significant part of the results. It reinforces the idea that those who have encountered psychopaths or other character disordered, for instance, or the mentally ill up close and personal or have been mentally ill themselves, are more likely to assess others correctly or in the general ball park. That would be interesting to test!

I think the study was more impressive at the time-- it was a boon for the anti-psychiatry movement. You raise some awesome points-- I'm shaky on the specifics, but as I recall, the only overt symptom the imposters faked once institutionalized was to insist they kept having an auditory hallucination in which they heard the word "thud" or "thump" or something over and over??

And I very much agree with your last point-- people who have been "up close and personal" with mental health issues are often quite astute at identifying similar issues in others and offering personal insight. That's why this thread is often so awesome, IMO.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by Nancy Botwin
. . .the only overt symptom the imposters faked once institutionalized was to insist they kept having an auditory hallucination in which they heard the word "thud" or "thump" or something over and over??

Central to the issue of "confirmatory bias" was that even their "normal"
behaviors were misinterpreted as aberrant, e.g. the journaling which
they did was described as "writes compulsively," etc. The significance
of this classic study is that preconceptions tend to interfere with critical
thinking (which doesn't mean criticism).

 

[nancy botwin]

Central to the issue of "confirmatory bias" was that even their "normal"
behaviors were misinterpreted as aberrant, e.g. the journaling which
they did was described as "writes compulsively," etc. The significance
of this classic study is that preconceptions tend to interfere with critical
thinking (which doesn't mean criticism).

True! The study did indeed present an important cautionary tale.

Are you defining critical thinking for me or qualifying your post?

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by Nancy Botwin
Are you defining critical thinking for me or qualifying your post?

Haven't defined it yet. Doubt you need me to do that.

 

[nancy botwin]

Haven't defined it yet. Doubt you need me to do that.

I was looking for some clarity. Thank you for responding.

 

[Verité]

You're welcome, Nancy Botwin.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Since Casey’s BRACE Character Profile is so dominated by Type C characteristics, the whole analysis posted at http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/ could have been replaced with the description of the prototypical Type C individual. I just reread the defining characteristics for a Type C individual and found it to be quite a match without any analysis. Thinking about Casey’s relationships with Cindy, George, and Lee while rereading it was interesting to me, particularly as related to how Caylee fit into the family dynamics. The Type C character in the link below is presented in the same format as the personality disorders are in DSM-IV-TR (American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Association, 2000).

It is rather long, but might be worth the time for some.

http://braceanalysis.com/faq4/type_c_characteristics.htm

Russell

 

[bookworm474]

from above Brace:C

Their self-serving logic is increasingly stretched as their boundaries of thought and deed increasingly blur. Their words increasingly lose definition and their behavior becomes more fragmented and disorganized. Organization and planning skills give way to tangential thoughts, loose associations, loss of deductive and inductive reasoning, and increasing doubts and confusion. Associated behavior becomes increasingly bizarre as desires become more insatiable and perverted. Ultimately, their sense of self is diffuse and their sense of control and purpose are nonexistent. Their focus of attention is on what is NOT and they have a deep sense of isolation and emptiness where their self should be. In the final analysis, there is no structure of time or space for their form to be. Their self becomes the void of their own understanding --- it’s their existential crisis.
---------

If I get it, this is what I notice about Casey's texting mania and probably the driving aimlessly around Orlando.

 

[Knot4u2no]

from above Brace:C

Their self-serving logic is increasingly stretched as their boundaries of thought and deed increasingly blur. Their words increasingly lose definition and their behavior becomes more fragmented and disorganized. Organization and planning skills give way to tangential thoughts, loose associations, loss of deductive and inductive reasoning, and increasing doubts and confusion. Associated behavior becomes increasingly bizarre as desires become more insatiable and perverted. Ultimately, their sense of self is diffuse and their sense of control and purpose are nonexistent. Their focus of attention is on what is NOT and they have a deep sense of isolation and emptiness where their self should be. In the final analysis, there is no structure of time or space for their form to be. Their self becomes the void of their own understanding --- it’s their existential crisis.
---------

If I get it, this is what I notice about Casey's texting mania and probably the driving aimlessly around Orlando.

It certainly could be.
Russell

 

[elementary]

I've mentioned a couple of times that the As as a whole have similarities to Mafia families. They take care of their own, play by their own rules, have their own sense of morality and ethics, punish their own, circle the wagons, value loyalty, etc.

I started reading Hare's (and Babiak's) Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work. Robert Hare is one of the foremost authorities on psychopathy. They clarify the distinctions between psychopathy, sociopathy and ASPD. It's the first time I've seen these distinctions made, but they are very useful, IMO. I've left out ASPD because I don't think it's relevant here.

Psychopathy is a personality disorder described by personality traits and behaviors....Psychopaths are without conscience, and incapable of empathy, guilt, or loyalty to anyone but themselves.

Sociopathy is not a formal psychiatric condition. It refers to patterns of attitudes and behaviors that are considered antisocial and criminal by society at large, but are seen as normal or necessary by the subculture or social environment in which they developed. Sociopaths may have a well-developed conscience and a normal capacity for empathy, guilt and loyalty, but their sense of right and wrong is based on the norms and expectations of their subculture or group. (p19)(my underline)

I've mentioned more than once that I think that Cindy has strong narcissistic traits at the very least, and I still believe that, but was not able to figure out why the collusion on everyone's part, why the eagerness to lie on the part of the entire family, why the hostility against the entire world, why the circling of wagons, why the reprehensible and inappropriate reactions and behaviour. Why do they remind me of Mafia families?

The As' behaviour seems consistent with this description of sociopathy. It certainly might explain a lot! And raises a whole lot of questions as well.

If anyone wants to also argue against this idea, I would be interested to know the reasons the As behaviour does not seem consistent with this descriptions of sociopathy.

 

[kageykaren]

It certainly could be.
Russell

I only lurk on the psych. threads now because there is much more information flowing in once again. If there was a vote describing this family this one has my vote. :clap:

 

[Mamabear1963]

Not sure where to post this but felt this would be the most likely thread...

I just finished reading Small Sacrifices by Anne Rule...talk about feeling like I was seeing KC in EDD it was wild.

Both murdered their own child
Both seem to have a Histrionic Personality Disorder (basically overly dramtic, reactive and intensely expressed behavior; often act out a role such as the "victim" or "princess"
Both seem to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder a gradiose sense of self-importance
Both seem to have Antisocial Personality Disorder
Both have "wrong" social reactions smiling or laughing instead of being somber or crying
Both portrayed nervous movements during trials...KC the hands...wiping the hands...EDD stroking her pg belly during the murder trial
Both claimed innocence

It will be interesting once this goes to trial...to see if the trials are similar as well.

 

[Whisperer]

There is an awful lot of heavy mental health scripting here. I hope everyone can follow it. I am going to speak off the present subject being discussed because I feel a need just to state simply my own feelings towards this family and their dynamics recently.

Last night I read a police interview with Cindy's co-workers...From all appearances it seems like Cindy's plea for help and finally seeking help through an EAP counselor was at the end of June or first week in July. I got the impression she was seeking psychological help for a long time....not so. Her co-workers were aware of some issues such as Casey demeaning GA as much as CA does.....George is sure the victim between these two. This reeks of borderline behavior. Anyone wonder what Lee's role in this was?

I am guessing but I think he sided with his sister always. Don't know if he loves her or is "in love" with her but it is strange and I think people pickup on the strangness and want to know what is going on..,, Peeking into his speech the other day, he was once again, avoiding letting anyone know what the relationship was like between Caylee and her Uncle or Casey and him. He showed us anger, determination and gave glimpses of his great intensity, but not once did he speak to Caylee or Casey exclusiviely . He wants one of them to be proud of him....which one? or both? Why the style of speaking and in front of the nation? Purposely, it seemed yet, one does not speak this way to a child..IMO.,,,w.o the use of brother or uncle, I am once again left wondering , "What is wrong and missing from this crazy family?"

 

[Verité]

from above Brace:C

Their self-serving logic is increasingly stretched as their boundaries of thought and deed increasingly blur. Their words increasingly lose definition and their behavior becomes more fragmented and disorganized. Organization and planning skills give way to tangential thoughts, loose associations, loss of deductive and inductive reasoning, and increasing doubts and confusion. Associated behavior becomes increasingly bizarre as desires become more insatiable and perverted. Ultimately, their sense of self is diffuse and their sense of control and purpose are nonexistent. Their focus of attention is on what is NOT and they have a deep sense of isolation and emptiness where their self should be. In the final analysis, there is no structure of time or space for their form to be. Their self becomes the void of their own understanding --- it’s their existential crisis.
---------

If I get it, this is what I notice about Casey's texting mania and probably the driving aimlessly around Orlando.

Is the above a quote from Brace? If not, how much? Thanx

 

[Verité]

Since Casey’s BRACE Character Profile is so dominated by Type C characteristics, the whole analysis posted at http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/ could have been replaced with the description of the prototypical Type C individual. . . .

http://braceanalysis.com/faq4/type_c_characteristics.htm

Russell

Thanx, K4u2n, I'm still reading. . . .

 

[Verité]

Since Casey’s BRACE Character Profile is so dominated by Type C characteristics, the whole analysis posted at http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/ could have been replaced with the description of the prototypical Type C individual. I just reread the defining characteristics for a Type C individual and found it to be quite a match without any analysis. . . .The Type C character in the link below is presented in the same format as the personality disorders are in DSM-IV-TR (American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Association, 2000). . . .

Does the Brace Type C correspond to any current DSM nomenclature for a specific personality disorder? Or combine one or more PD?

I'm confused by certain cognitive descriptions of the Type C which I'd expect on Mental Status or psychometrics to suggest disorders other than PD,
e.g."loose associations." If APD, one would not expect psych tests to show the Type C "narrowed focus of attention" but tendency to widely, effectively
use environmental scanning in pursuit of need-satisfaction.

The Type C appears to share some characteristics with Kohut's Narcissistic Behavior Disorders (which would probably be Antisocial PD &/or some of the
sexual disorders in DSM-IV-TR), Or Kernberg's Borderline PD. Comments?

 

[Verité]

I've mentioned a couple of times that the As as a whole have similarities to Mafia families. They take care of their own, play by their own rules, have their own sense of morality and ethics, punish their own, circle the wagons, value loyalty, etc. . . .

Why do they remind me of Mafia families?

Because, in Family Systems Theory, the above describes what's known as "a closed system" which is unreceptive and unresponsive to feedback from the external environment
(one of the key characteristics of what's known as a "dysfunctional" system, whether we're talking about the basic unit of social organization, i.e. the family, or larger social institutions to
include government entities.)

But, I love your "mafia" descriptor!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Since Casey’s BRACE Character Profile is so dominated by Type C characteristics, the whole analysis posted at http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/ could have been replaced with the description of the prototypical Type C individual. I just reread the defining characteristics for a Type C individual and found it to be quite a match without any analysis. Thinking about Casey’s relationships with Cindy, George, and Lee while rereading it was interesting to me, particularly as related to how Caylee fit into the family dynamics. The Type C character in the link below is presented in the same format as the personality disorders are in DSM-IV-TR (American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Association, 2000).

It is rather long, but might be worth the time for some.

http://braceanalysis.com/faq4/type_c_characteristics.htm

Russell

Good reading, thanks for sharing!

One thing I would disagree with here is the suicide thing.. I would not be surprised if Casey were to kill herself before, during or shortly after trial as a way of maintaining control and avoiding punishment.

But that's just mo.

 

[Whisperer]

Good reading, thanks for sharing!

One thing I would disagree with here is the suicide thing.. I would not be surprised if Casey were to kill herself before, during or shortly after trial as a way of maintaining control and avoiding punishment.

But that's just mo.

I agree with you OLG, I know general consensus is Narcissists are unlikely to kill themselves but it would now surprise me to hear kc has done it. I think that would occur, if it does, upon leaving the jail system.

I do not see anything about this case winding up "normal". I can't even imagine this going to trial..well, at least in a normal way.