Casey's Defense Team. What Now? #2

[Wudge]

Here's one. And it's a Florida case.



Schad v. AZ formed the baseline and the FL courts have adopted an even broader reading, affording for exactly the scenario I've repeatedly described.

Also, Casey has been charged with First Degree Murder and I went so far as to circle the actual charge on the indictment.

I do understand where you're coming from and appreciate the logic behind what you're arguing-- You are not however, IMO, accurately stating the current state of the law as it relates to this case, or any case tried within the state of Florida. In fact, one of the dissenting judges in the Nattis v. FL Opinion I cited above actually advocates changing the law to afford for your interpretation of the statute and its application at trial.

Did you detail out the facts of these two cases (Schad and this case)? If not, it is important that you do so. Because the facts are not comparable.

Moreover, in Schad, the Supreme Court's majority opinion included the following: "It is impossible to lay down any single test for determining when two means are so disparate as to exemplify two inherently separate offenses. Instead, the concept of due process, with its demands for fundamental fairness and for the rationality that is an essential component of that fairness, must serve as the measurement of the level of definitional and verdict specificity permitted by the Constitution."

As regards the charge of aggravated child abuse against Casey, a charge of felony-murder was not attached. Jurors cannot convict on a non-existent charge.

HTH

 

[RR0004]

Per Wikipedia: "Criminal homicide, a malum in se crime, occurs when a person purposely, knowingly, recklessly, or negligently causes the death of another. Murder and manslaughter are both examples of criminal homicide. Every legal system contains some form of prohibition or regulation of criminal homicide."

In this case, didn't KC "negligently cause the death" of Caylee. Based on the charges against her aren't they going after criminal homicide/murder?

I think aggravated child abuse can support a murder conviction.

 

[JBean]

Ok, I'm biting. . . .what's the actual difference? An illegal homicide is a murder but a legal homicide is just homicide. What would be a LEGAL homicide?

self defense.
The death penalty is justifiable homicide I believe. (eta i am referring to execution of course.)

 

[JBean]

But murder can be included in "homicide" ?

Homicide - The killing of a human being due to the act or omission of another. Murder and manslaughter are included among homicides, but not all homicides are a crime, particularly when there is a lack of criminal intent.

http://www.prisonsfoundation.org/letters/WHAT'S_WRONG_WITH_THE_FELONY_MURDER_RULE.html

Interesting read.

Yes exactly.

 

[Janis396]

What about "suicide by cop"? When that happens, is it considered that the cop then commited a homicide?

 

[Wudge]

Did they have to for the indictment?

SNIP

No.

However, as I noted in a prior post, jurors cannot convict on a non-existent charge.

 

[JBean]

What about "suicide by cop"? When that happens, is it considered that the cop then commited a homicide?

Ha good one. I would guess it is classified as suicide not homicide, but that is a guess.

ETA: I mean in cases where it is obvious.

 

[Wudge]

self defense.

SNIP

Yes JBean. That's a good example of an affirmative defense.

 

[Wudge]

I think aggravated child abuse can support a murder conviction.

True, provided there is a related murder charge.

 

[RR0004]

No.

However, as I noted in a prior post, jurors cannot convict on a non-existent charge.

So they can upgrade charges?

 

[Wudge]

So they can upgrade charges?

Yes. Charges can be added or dropped.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

This is not be the first time that I've heard the term "felony murder" is confusing. It can be unless you provide a hypo or you are talking with the parents or friends of those charged with felony murder.

Even then, high-school teenagers who hear a hypo that depicts a felony murder example are usually in disbelief (they usually think you are nuts at first). While parents or friends of those charged have a truly hard time (total disbelief at first) coming to grips with the reality that there really is such a concept in our system of jurisprudence -- first impulse can be to immediately find another attorney, someone who knows what they are talking about.

As for the term itself, "felony murder" is statute defined.

If you were to google those two words, I suspect you would discover this to be true. Most telling is that organizations that oppose "felony murder" also refer to it by those words. I'm sure we can agree that -- as clumsy or confusing as that word combination might be -- those organizations certainly should know what they are opposing.

(reposting example that shows the latter to be true)

http://felonymurderfl.org/resources/so-you-think-your-kids-are-safe/

I am totally confused. Unless the other poster is correct and you are referring to Capital murder. I say this because in my state all murders are felonies. If you are charged and convicted of murder, whether you serve six months or get death you are a felon and cannot vote. I am against the death penalty and we call it "Capital Murder." Also, in Virginia, if you are charge with First Degree murder it is not only a felony, but a capital offense even if you are not sentenced to death. And when the prosecution "takes the death penalty off the table" the fact that it was a capital crime does not change and in fact the jury can still recommend it and the judge pass that as sentence even if it was not sought. I know that things are different from state to state but I can't imagine in any state murder would not be a felony. Capital, not always, but felony for sure. The analogy I was taught was that if you were to go into a store and steal medicine for your dying mother and take in a gun that you believed to be not loaded and it goes off accidentally and someone was killed and there is no question in anyone's mind that it did not go off intentionally you could face the death penalty, but if you went out in the middle of the street and killed someone on purpose and then a few days later did it again in a different way maybe, right in front of everyone, when you were charged for the two murders you might not face the death penalty depending on how they charge you.

 

[RR0004]

Yes. Charges can be added or dropped.

But not sure if it's necessary under Florida code.

http://law.justia.com/florida/codes/TitleXLVI/ch0782.html


1782.04 Murder.-- (1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:


1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being; 2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:

h. Aggravated child abuse

 

[RR0004]

Ok...I feel much better now knowing that all bases are covered. This has given me one big headache.

 

[Wudge]

But not sure if it's necessary under Florida code.

Do you think a jury has the power to convict on a non-existent charge?

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Ok, I'm biting. . . .what's the actual difference? An illegal homicide is a murder but a legal homicide is just homicide. What would be a LEGAL homicide?

Lethal Injection

 

[RR0004]

Do you think a jury has the power to convict on a non-existent charge?

Let me see...murder...check...aggravated child abuse...check. Am I missing something?

I'll stand by the code...and I'm sure the prosecution will explain it fully to the jury.

 

[Devon]

As regards the charge of aggravated child abuse against Casey, a charge of felony-murder was not attached. Jurors cannot convict on a non-existent charge.

HTH

Snipped

Wudge, are you saying that because the charge of aggravated child abuse against KC alleges only that she intentionally caused physical injury to Caylee, but does not allege that the aggravated child abuse led to Caylee's death, that for this reason the charge cannot support a dual-theory route to murder one?

 

[Wudge]

Let me see...murder...check...aggravated child abuse...check. Am I missing something?

I'll stand by the code...and I'm sure the prosecution will explain it fully to the jury.

Casey has not been charged with felony-murder.

When a jury returns from its deliberations, you cannot expect a Judge to tell a defendant "though you were not charged with felony-murder, the jury did convict you on that charge".

(small due process problem)

 

[Wudge]

Snipped

Wudge, are you saying that because the charge of aggravated child abuse against KC alleges only that she intentionally caused physical injury to Caylee, but does not allege that the aggravated child abuse led to Caylee's death, that for this reason the charge cannot support a dual-theory route to murder one?

Corrrect.

As it now stands, prosecutors are not claiming that Caylee died as a result of the alleged aggravated child abuse.