Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

[Clue Hopper]

If you take the abuse out of the equation. LE hadn't brought that up. Also a lot of conflicting stories with that. You also take drugs out of the equation. LE didn't bring that up either. BB did. Now look at another possible reason. You could take EB and an accomplice as committing fraud by taking money that was meant to go towards Z. If there was an account that was set up for say a new prosthetic leg for Z. Now that money was not used for that. Now the organization or people are asking for proof or they will call for an investigation. That would be reason to specify that the leg was taken but not the hearing aides. It would also give reason for a ransom note to look as though there was a kidnapping and the need for money. It didn't work right with the fire. No one looked for Z. So plan B had to go into motion. That would be to call her in missing. It's the only reason I could see why LE asked for financial records and LD was mentioned in the bail hearing. It's the only thing that has actually fit together for me.

 

[Allusonz]

She was referring to AB.

snipped

Originally Posted by SherlockHomey
I'm with this too and the "what he did after was horrifying". I wonder if the "he" means one of the men in the alleged rape and not AB.

Most would assume that she meant Adam. All I did was concur with SherlockHomey the possibility that she was referring to a different "he" thus maybe the circumstances/cause of death may of been different than what appears to be on the surface

 

[SherlockHomey]

EB'S aunt visited her in jail and say that EB told her Z had been sick for two weeks and they came in her room and found her dead. Then they panicked.

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/26379915/index.html

Sorry but I don't buy it. There is no reason whatsoever to dismember a child when she died of natural causes. The search warrants said there was blood spatter on the walls and had to call in a blood spatter expert.

 

[Kat]

EB'S aunt visited her in jail and say that EB told her Z had been sick for two weeks and they came in her room and found her dead. Then they panicked.

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/26379915/index.html

Sorry but I don't buy it. There is no reason whatsoever to dismember a child when she died of natural causes. The search warrants said there was blood spatter on the walls and had to call in a blood spatter expert.

Respectfully bolded by me

Thank you for bringing that up. I don't remember that (I am not asking for a link! I just am having a problem with some memory right now--temp problem)

At first blush, that would indicate more than likely she died violently in her bedroom or at least suffered injuries extensive enough that blood was splattered on the walls.

Thank you again.

 

[SherlockHomey]

Respectfully bolded by me

Thank you for bringing that up. I don't remember that (I am not asking for a link! I just am having a problem with some memory right now--temp problem)

At first blush, that would indicate more than likely she died violently in her bedroom or at least suffered injuries extensive enough that blood was splattered on the walls.

Thank you again.

It was in one of the first SW released. If you do a search here for "blood spatter expert" you can probably find which warrant it was in.

Here is one post on a Nancy Grace show.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5861579&postcount=4"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.12.01 Nancy Grace[/ame]

 

[Alice Ramnit]

EB'S aunt visited her in jail and say that EB told her Z had been sick for two weeks and they came in her room and found her dead. Then they panicked.

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/26379915/index.html

Sorry but I don't buy it. There is no reason whatsoever to dismember a child when she died of natural causes. The search warrants said there was blood spatter on the walls and had to call in a blood spatter expert.

Agreed. There is also no reason to set a fire, pour gasoline in a vehicle, write a ransom note ,call the police, NOT report her missing only to call back later that day to say that she has disappeared!!

 

[Aedrys]

Agreed. There is also no reason to set a fire, pour gasoline in a vehicle, write a ransom note ,call the police, NOT report her missing only to call back later that day to say that she has disappeared!!

Well, if they mean dying of natural causes as in dying from wounds cause by their natural fists and feet after naturally beating her then that explains them panicking.

That's the only way I can make dying of natural causes and panicking work together.

 

[DMBKelly]

The "blood spatter expert" is stuck in my mind too, the sections of wall and floor cutout just paint a horrible picture of what might have happened in her room. Experts can tell a LOT from blood spatter.

However, if she did die from natural causes and they wanted to hide her body then why call the cops and makeup those ridiculous stories? Also, if Z & A were here illegally and they wanted to keep it hush-hush then why go to those lengths?
It also sticks in my mind why EB told her aunt they did not want DSS to get involved.
I cannot connect how dying of natural causes and dismemberment go together other than covering up something horrible.

 

[KPMcLovin]

Not to sound horrific here, and I have been trying to believe in the easiest death possible for Zahra, but in light of the new IMVU info regarding the chainsaw murder(well, new to me) is there a reason to be sure that dismemberment happened after death?
I hate to even ask.

 

[wenwe4]

"She'd been sick two weeks before she died," Winkler said. "When they found her, I guess they didn't know what to do. They just went wild."

According to search warrants and other court documents unsealed this week, Elisa Baker has told police that Zahra died on Sept. 24, about two weeks before she was reported missing. Elisa Baker told police that the girl was dismembered after she died, and her remains scattered in various locations in western North Carolina.

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/8887061/

 

[Kamille]

WARNING....*GRAPHIC*

Just wanted to point out something from the recently released search warrants. According to the warrants, EB told investigators that Zahra's limbs (plural) were dismembered and disposed of in various locations not limited to the two locations that we know of where remains were found.

http://www.wsoctv.com/download/2011/0104/26368831.pdf

It is not clear if she was referring to all four limbs. Since it's plural, I suppose we can assume that at least one limb was not found in the searches, possibly three. So I guess we can also assume from this that the remains found buried were at the least, the head and torso.

I'm trying not to be too graphic but I believe she also indicated that these parts were placed in garbage bags. For her age, Zahra was quite tall, over 5 feet I think according to the missing posters. While we are aware of this speculation about "chainsaw massacre" role playing, I think the dismemberment angle of this horrific crime might have been more geared to method of disposal. If the decision was made to dispose of a body that was over 5 feet tall and at least 80 pounds in a garbage bag, I don't think there is one available that would be big enough or strong enough. And I think white garbage bags have been mentioned, which are traditionally smaller and used for kitchen wastebaskets and not large outdoor garbage containers.

Now who actually was able to carry out this task and how are the big questions we are still waiting for answers on.

MOO

 

[Allusonz]

WARNING....*GRAPHIC*

Just wanted to point out something from the recently released search warrants. According to the warrants, EB told investigators that Zahra's limbs (plural) were dismembered and disposed of in various locations not limited to the two locations that we know of where remains were found.

http://www.wsoctv.com/download/2011/0104/26368831.pdf

It is not clear if she was referring to all four limbs. Since it's plural, I suppose we can assume that at least one limb was not found in the searches, possibly three. So I guess we can also assume from this that the remains found buried were at the least, the head and torso.

I'm trying not to be too graphic but I believe she also indicated that these parts were placed in garbage bags. For her age, Zahra was quite tall, over 5 feet I think according to the missing posters. While we are aware of this speculation about "chainsaw massacre" role playing, I think the dismemberment angle of this horrific crime might have been more geared to method of disposal. If the decision was made to dispose of a body that was over 5 feet tall and at least 80 pounds in a garbage bag, I don't think there is one available that would be big enough or strong enough. And I think white garbage bags have been mentioned, which are traditionally smaller and used for kitchen wastebaskets and not large outdoor garbage containers.

Now who actually was able to carry out this task and how are the big questions we are still waiting for answers on.

MOO

i did indeed read this and i think my heart sunk to the pit of my stomache

i still though dont believe we have the full story but we will

 

[Kamille]

I was also thinking that EB alone likely could not have lifted an 80 pound lifeless body to put into a vehicle for disposal. AB could have. If EB was alone, perhaps that's what prompted the decision to dispose of the body in this way?

MOO

 

[Lanie]

WARNING....*GRAPHIC*
Respectfully snipped>
I'm trying not to be too graphic but I believe she also indicated that these parts were placed in garbage bags. For her age, Zahra was quite tall, over 5 feet I think according to the missing posters. While we are aware of this speculation about "chainsaw massacre" role playing, I think the dismemberment angle of this horrific crime might have been more geared to method of disposal. If the decision was made to dispose of a body that was over 5 feet tall and at least 80 pounds in a garbage bag, I don't think there is one available that would be big enough or strong enough. And I think white garbage bags have been mentioned, which are traditionally smaller and used for kitchen wastebaskets and not large outdoor garbage containers.

Now who actually was able to carry out this task and how are the big questions we are still waiting for answers on.

MOO

BBM

Don't forget EB tells LE where they dumped the bedspread and car cover used to transport the body parts, both of which are big enough and strong enough for a whole body to fit in.

At this point, after reading these search warrants, I believe the dismemberment was the COD, and it's going to take some major evidence to make me think otherwise.

And while I will control myself and not type it out, I want everyone to know there is a major name-calling rant going on in my head right now. These search warrants have really done a number on me.

 

[Allusonz]

The search warrants have been released in such a manner i believe and this is MOO to allow people to digest the information slowly

I think that this is only another part of the information they want people to digest

I am truly afraid what will land in our laps next but i know it will not be pretty but the one that prob holds most of the clues will be the ME's one and i truly dread the day i see that

 

[Beagle]

Major inconsistency if my memory serves me right.......

The time frame of when EB says Zahra died after two weeks of illness, conflicts with the last sighting of Zahra and there was no mention of Zahra appearing ill at that sighting. Just can't remember the date of the sighting but I think it is around that time.
:furious:

 

[lauriej]

Major inconsistency if my memory serves me right.......

The time frame of when EB says Zahra died after two weeks of illness, conflicts with the last sighting of Zahra and there was no mention of Zahra appearing ill at that sighting. Just can't remember the date of the sighting but I think it is around that time.
:furious:

..elisa says she was killed on the 24th.
..the furniture store sighting was the 25th.


"We have cartoons for children playing on the TVs... and she was standing in the aisleway. As I walked past, I just touched her on the shoulder and said ‘Excuse me, sweetheart’ and she just looked up at me and smiled," floor manager Pat Adams told NewsChannel 36.

Adams said another salesperson remembered Elisa Baker calling the little girl, "Zahra."

Linda Austin says she noticed the little girl had a prosthetic leg and heard her stepmother call her by her name. "And I thought that was a strange name, which it is it's different, pretty but different," Austin said.

"We saw on TV about the little girl was missing and we started talking about it, and that was who it was—the little girl," explained Israel Valle.

http://www.live5news.com/Global/story.asp?S=13335558
http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Zahra-sp ... 82544.html

 

[Jacie Estes]

i did indeed read this and i think my heart sunk to the pit of my stomache

i still though dont believe we have the full story but we will

Every bit of information that comes out is upsetting. What this poor child went through at the hands of those who were supposed to care for her and, in ab's case, love her. When the next round of info comes out, IMHO, ab will beg to be protected because he will not look any better in the public eye.

When the complete info comes out, at trial, IMHO the COD will horrify all of us and the motive will put some people in jail for a long time.

 

[tlcya]

Warning. This topic is graphic and rather clinical. For those weak of stomache or faint of heart it may be too disturbing a topic for your personal tastes.

Because of the many unknowns in this case I fear Time of Death will be very difficult to determine.

We have Zahra not seen for weeks before she is reported "missing". We have multiple disposal sights giving credence to the dismemberment theories. We have Elisa Baker telling LE that Zahra died on September 24th after being sick for several weeks. We have furniture store employees stating they saw Zahra, looking well and healthy, with Elisa in the store on September 25th.

As the remains were disposed of at multiple sites and they were located some time after Zahra's death, what role will TOD play at trial? How closely will ME be able to pin down the actual TOD and COD based on the decomposition that has undoubtably ocurred to the remains prior to their location?

http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/time-death

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

Some links to get us started.

 

[tlcya]

Bass and his students discovered a number of factors contributing to body decay. Some things they discovered include that flies and maggots will turn a body in to a skeleton in under two weeks in warmer weather and the face will always rot first because maggots prefer wet places. He has also observed how fast bodies decay when submerged in water, stored in the boot of a car, or wrapped in plastic

snipped from description of work done at "the body farm"

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm