Cheri Jo Bates...Zodiac Victim or not?

[chlban]

That's what I also thought, that he didn't match the DNA. And if the letters weren't by the real Zodiac killer, than everyone's been following a false lead all along.

If they are real, Zodiac isn't the only killer to send letters and notes to taunt the police.

Maybe he heard about Cheri Jo Bates murder and the letters (which were a couple of years before his first known victim) and decided to use them himself.

I don't believe Allen was the Zodiac, so whether or not the DNA matches wouldn't have any relevance for me. As I have stated, I don't think Bates was a Zodiac victim. However, I think it is quite possible, even probable, that Zodiac sent the letters. By that point he was bragging to the police that his kills were much higher than those being attributed to him, so I am not real surprised that he take credit for an unsolved killing.

If that is the case, it would likely indicate some type of connection to Southern CA since I don't think the Bates murder was highly publicized state wide.

 

[STANDREID]

This month is the 50th anniversary of Cheri Jo's murder-R.I.P.

Her slaying seems almost too depraved to be Zodiac's first murder but who can say for sure.

 

[STANDREID]

Although I'm doubtful about Cheri Jo being a Zodiac victim, one thing that moves me a little closer in that direction is that she was driving a rear engine car-a Volkswagen Beetle. At a time when I don't think even 5% of the cars on the road were rear engine, Bates, Ferrin/Mageau (Corvair) and Hartnell/Shepard (Volkswagen Karman Ghia) were all in rear engine cars. That would be three out of the first four attacks if Bates was a Zodiac victim.

 

[Dragonfyree]

Although I'm doubtful about Cheri Jo being a Zodiac victim, one thing that moves me a little closer in that direction is that she was driving a rear engine car-a Volkswagen Beetle. At a time when I don't think even 5% of the cars on the road were rear engine, Bates, Ferrin/Mageau (Corvair) and Hartnell/Shepard (Volkswagen Karman Ghia) were all in rear engine cars. That would be three out of the first four attacks if Bates was a Zodiac victim.

I wouldn't think it would be against all cars on the road, but what kind of cars high school and college age kids were driving at the time. And in the 60's Volkswagens were very popular among that age group, as they were a relatively cheap car. So maybe rare against the entire population but not within that age group.

 

[Eagle]

I read at one time, for a period :Shepard also attended Riverside, at a time the Cheri Bates was there.

 

[STANDREID]

The 50th anniversary of her murder was just last week but it didn't seem to get much play. I imagine it was brought up some on the Zodiac sites but I don't know for sure.

 

[morf13]

It's a shame that Cheri's case turned 50 years old. I had hoped to see her case solved,but I doubt that's going to happen. Zodiac Victim or not,50 years is too long

 

[cluznar]

Cheri Jo Bates was without a doubt a Zodiac victim. If you have an interest in Zodiac you should read my book "CRYPTIC" which is about two serial killers working together. Though fiction you may find it very interesting. :fence:

 

[Winward1]

It's a shame that Cheri's case turned 50 years old. I had hoped to see her case solved,but I doubt that's going to happen. Zodiac Victim or not,50 years is too long

There was evidence under her fingernails, supposedly. Could there be a DNA solve?

 

[Dragonfyree]

I'd be more interested in touch DNA on the watch they found. If it actually belongs to the killer and was preserved well, their DNA should be all over the back where it touched the skin. I don't know if it was a leather band or one of those stretchy kind where DNA might have been caught between the little springs.

I don't believe she is a victim of the Zodiac Killer.

I just read a book from Kindle Unlimited on Amazon Prime called "The Great Zodiac Killer Hoax of 1986" by Thomas Henry Horan.

In the book, he goes directly into the actual police files and then compares what is there to what Robert Greysmith has been writing and the differences are remarkable. He found that most people, when talking about the case, (including the police) are quoting from Greysmith about what the evidence is and not what the actual evidence in the case is.

It is especially true about the second crime at Blue Rock Springs attack of Darlene Farrin and Michael Mageau. I had always thought they were on a date and just happened to pull into the park. But there was a lot of stuff going on that night before they ever ended up in the park and actual witness testimony does not match up with what Greysmith claims happened.

Also questions on why Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday were really parked out on that road in the middle of nowhere.

It was a very interesting read and made me rethink a lot about Zodiac, especially, is he responsible for all these killings, or did Robert Greysmith's books and writing take over the investigation and cause several cases including Cheri Jo Bates to go unsolved.

 

[joeltodd]

On October 30, 1966, Cheri Jo Bates, 18, was studying at the Riverside City College library annex until the library closed at 9 p.m. Investigators suspect that her Volkswagen parked outside the library was tampered with prior to her leaving the library. The distributor coil and the condenser had been pulled out and the middle wire of the distributor was disconnected. Police believe that when she tried to start the car the person who disabled it approached her and offered his help.

Somehow he lured her into a secluded dark driveway which sat between two empty houses, where police believe the two sat for about an hour and a half. The man later attacked Bates, beating her, slashing at her face and cutting her a total of 11 times, seven of which nearly decapitated her.
Clues found at the scene included a size 10 heel-print, a Timex watch with a torn seven-inch wristband displaying the time 12:23, fingerprints and a palm print, skin tissue underneath the victim's fingernails and hair and blood in her hands.
On November 29, 1966, two identical letters were sent to the Riverside Police and the Riverside Press-Enterprise by someone claiming to be responsible for killing Bates. The letters included a poem titled "The Cofession"[sic] which offered details of the murder that only the police and the killer knew about. The letters also included a warning that she was not the first or the last of his victims. Many believe the tone of the letter was very similar to that of the Zodiac letters mailed after the Vallejo murders.
In December 1966 a custodian at the Riverside City College discovered a poem carved into the underside of a folding desk. The poem, titled "Sick of living/unwilling to die" had a tone similar to that of the Zodiac as well as handwriting which looked like some found in the Zodiac's letters. Some believe the author, who signed the poem with the initials "rh" was describing the murder of Bates. Other theorize that the letter was written by a student who had unsuccessfully tried to kill themselves. However, Sherwood Morrill, one of California's top Questioned Documents examiners, was of the opinion that the true author of the poem was the Zodiac. Six months after the murder of Bates three nearly identical letters were received by the Riverside Press, the Riverside police and Cheri Jo Bates' father. The letters all contained more postage than was necessary(like Zodiac would later do) and two of the letters were signed with a symbol which looked like the letter Z next to the number three. The Zodiac letters sent in the 1970s all contained excessive postage, symbol-type signatures and the threat that more murders would follow.
Here is the poem that was etched onto the desktop:



Sick of living / unwilling to die
cut.
clean.
if red I
clean.
blood spurting,
dripping,
spilling;
all over her new
dress.
oh well,
it was red anyway. life draining into an
uncertain death.
she won't
die
this time
someone ll find her
just wait till
next time.
rh



Here i found another article about a girl in a "red dress" that was found dead:

Headline from 12/19/66 Modesto Bee
"Woman's Body Is Found On Cliff
TIBURON (UPI)—The badly decomposed body of a woman
was found Sunday on a cliff by a young hunter. Authorities said
the body had lain in the underbrush for several months about 20
feet below Paradise Drive. An autopsy will be conducted to determine
cause of death. She was wearing a red dress.They found no Identification on the
body. Deputies said they have no report of a missing woman
matching the description of the body."

She was dead for several months.That means,she was dead before Cheri Jo Bates,so when the person sent the letter saying "she was not the first,and she will not be the last",he may have been telling the truth.She may have been the girl in the "red dress" that the desktop poem was about.

I have tried to research more to find out if her identity was ever determined,but was unable to find more info.

Remember in Bates "CONFESSION" letter, sent Nov 29, 1966, it was written about CJB: " SHE IS NOT THE FIRST AND SHE WILL NOT BE THE LAST "

Zodiac later wrote the word PARADICE in one of his letters.

So the couple interesting things here are that this unidentified woman was found in a RED dress,on PARADISE Drive

Do you know if the tissue found under her nails has been tested, if so, has it been compared to the DNA recovered from Zodiac letters postage stamps?

 

[morf13]

Do you know if the tissue found under her nails has been tested, if so, has it been compared to the DNA recovered from Zodiac letters postage stamps?

The hair under her nails was tested and excluded Riverside's top suspect, yet they refuse to stop looking at him. Suspicious cigarette butts found nearby were also tested and did not match him

 

[Fede]

Have you seen this images? Riverside Parade 1966: Is this Ross Sullivan and Cheri Jo Bates?

Maybe with technology the images can be enhanced!

 

[morf13]

Not sure how anyone can ID anything in those grainy pics and vid

 

[Dragonfyree]

The hair under her nails was tested and excluded Riverside's top suspect, yet they refuse to stop looking at him. Suspicious cigarette butts found nearby were also tested and did not match him

This is what is so irritating. Greysmith has everyone looking at this one suspect no matter how many times the DNA does not match him.

I've heard people say, "Well he didn't like to lick stamps so he had someone else lick them for him."

Really.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to want huge counts by serial killers and want to add almost anyone killed in and around the area or even similar killings to be all attributed to one person.

If you look at the Zodiac killings - they really aren't similar at all, other than a couple were attacked. But that also applies to the Texarkana Moonlight Murders - and the 1938 - 1942 - Duck Island Murders of couples.

With Zodiac the first two couples were shot at night. But the 3rd was broad daylight and stabbed. Poor Paul Stine was a cabdriver by himself. The letter about him is authentic, in that it came from his killer, because a piece of his shirt came with it, but I don't know if the gun from all three shootings were ever matched?

Every day DNA gets better and I believe one day we will know who a lot of these killers are.

Do you think there is any DNA left from Jack The Ripper that might be used to find a relative in a DNA bank?

 

[Richard]

...
With Zodiac the first two couples were shot at night. But the 3rd was broad daylight and stabbed. Poor Paul Stine was a cabdriver by himself. The letter about him is authentic, in that it came from his killer, because a piece of his shirt came with it, but I don't know if the gun from all three shootings were ever matched?...

No the guns did NOT match in any of the murders claimed by Zodiac (the letter writer).

The first young couple was shot with a .22 semi automatic pistol. The next couple was shot with a 9 mm Browning semiauto pistol. The third couple was threatened with a pistol which may have been a .45 Auto and then stabbed with a long bladed knife. The taxi driver was shot with a 9 mm Browning semiauto pistol but DIFFERENT from the one used earlier.

Zodiac later claimed to have shot a policeman with a .38 revolver - but that murder was tied to someone else.

None of those firearms have ever been found.

 

[Dragonfyree]

No the guns did NOT match in any of the murders claimed by Zodiac (the letter writer).

So what are the chances Zodiac used different guns.

I know some peoples with guns and they usually have a favorite that they use whenever possible for target practice or hunting. I would think a killer would want to use the one he was most comfortable with .

For all we know the Zodiac is more like Henry Lee Lucas - who did kill someone but then confessed to a ton of murders he didn't do. I saw a documentary on him recently, I think on Netflix which talked about how after they created the timeline for Lucas's travels it proved he wasn't at any of these places and was usually thousands of miles away, yet those police departments refuse to reopen the cases because they have a confession.

I wonder if this might not have happened in the Zodiac case where you have someone confessing to the crimes and they just accept it. If I remember correctly he didn't confess to the first killing until after killing Darlene. Why no note to police after that first murders? Could it be the second killer wanted to throw police off as to the reason for the murders and confessed to an earlier crime?

My worry has always been that the police have become so tunnel visioned that they won't look at these as 4 different murders and try and find suspects instead of trying to find one that fit all 4.

As I always say in my posts. I don't believe Cheri is part of the Zodiac killings. Nothing about this appears to match, including that he disabled her car so it wouldn't start. Her murder sounds very personal.

 

[Richard]

There were many murders and attacks on persons which were either claimed by Zodiac or attributed to him by law enforcement or crime writers.

The four attacks which are accepted by most as being likely "Zodiac" committed crimes are:

- Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday, 20 December 1968
- Michael Mageau and Darlene Ferrin, 5 July 1969
- Bryan Hartnell and Cecilia Shepherd, 27 September 1969
- Paul Stine, 11 October 1969

None of these attacks were connected by firearms ballistics matching, but by the person who wrote to LE and the media claiming to be Zodiac. He provided some corroborating information in his letters to convince them that he was the killer of those victims.

"Zodiac" continued to write letters, often including pieces of Paul Stine's shirt as proof that he was the writer. In his sign offs, he would include a number of persons that he claimed as kills, but he did not name any other victims after Paul Stine. He would reference other murders, and hint that he was responsible, or had knowledge of them, but he did not include any forensic proof. On 15 March 1971, he claimed the number "17 plus". Following a three year drought of no letters, he wrote again to LE on 30 January 1974, claiming "37" victims. Four years later in another lone letter, his score was "Guess".

He made statements about using different weapons and he indicated that some of his "kills" would look like accidents.

So... How many did he actually attack and kill? Did he claim victims that he did not personally kill? What was his range of operations? Just who was he? Questions which will be asked over and over again.

As to Cheri Jo Bates: Her murder in 1966 was more than two years prior to the first attack that Zodiac had claimed. A newspaper writer (Paul Avery) made the possible connection between Zodiac and Cheri Jo in November 1970, and reported it.

Zodiac referenced the story obliquely in his 15 March 1971 letter when he said: "I do have to give them credit for stumbling across my riverside activity, but they are only finding the easy ones, there are a hell of a lot more down there."

No explanation or further information from him on it. Investigators have attempted to compare and make connections between Cheri's murder and other Zodiac suspected murders, but no official or definite connection was made.

 

[Shooketh]

This is what is so irritating. Greysmith has everyone looking at this one suspect no matter how many times the DNA does not match him.

I've heard people say, "Well he didn't like to lick stamps so he had someone else lick them for him."

Really.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to want huge counts by serial killers and want to add almost anyone killed in and around the area or even similar killings to be all attributed to one person.

If you look at the Zodiac killings - they really aren't similar at all, other than a couple were attacked. But that also applies to the Texarkana Moonlight Murders - and the 1938 - 1942 - Duck Island Murders of couples.

With Zodiac the first two couples were shot at night. But the 3rd was broad daylight and stabbed. Poor Paul Stine was a cabdriver by himself. The letter about him is authentic, in that it came from his killer, because a piece of his shirt came with it, but I don't know if the gun from all three shootings were ever matched?

Every day DNA gets better and I believe one day we will know who a lot of these killers are.

Do you think there is any DNA left from Jack The Ripper that might be used to find a relative in a DNA bank?

There are some that believe Zodiac and the Moonlight Murders could be the same. I am not saying they are by any means but I think there is an argument that could be made that they are. The moonlight murders seemed to escalate each time. That killer, by the fourth attack and also would be 5th murder did change MO if you believe that the same killer responsible for the attack of the couple at home was also responsible for the couple murders/attacks in their cars. There was also a young woman from Texarkana that disappeared two years later late at night on her college campus in Denton Tx. Some believe she was a victim of the Phantom killer in the moonlight murders. I don't know though because it was two years later and her body was never found.

 

[Dragonfyree]

There are some that believe Zodiac and the Moonlight Murders

That's what I mean in one of my earlier posts that some people want a serial killer to be responsible for any similar killing that ever happens.

If we're to believe the description of witnesses in the Paul Stine case the killer was in his thirties. The Texarkana murders happened 20 years before the Zodiac. Did the killer start really young and then stop for 20 years or are there dozens of victims we don't know about?

There are several books on the Texarkana murders. "The Phantom Killer - by James Presley and The Texas Moonlight Murders - by Michael Newton. They both show that the police at the time believed they had the killer - Youell Swinney and his wife. She confessed to the police and was even able to give a description to the police about the crime scene. There used to be laws, which I don't know if they are still in effect where one spouse could not testify against their spouse, no matter what the circumstances and they didn't have any other evidence. They also weren't sure that the last murder at the Stark home was the same killer.

The girls' name was Virginia Carpenter she took a train from Texarkana to Denton Texas which is a little over 200 miles. The prime suspect was the cab driver who had driven her from the train station to the college twice that night and gave the story that she got into a car with two other men at the college and went off with them.

I really believe DNA is going to one day solve these crimes and it will probably be someone no one has ever mentioned.