Christmas Day Significance

[wonderllama]

I hate to be the pooper of the party, but I don't believe the date of JBR's death has anything other than a tragic "festive season" aspect to it.

Events of the day/evening are of course linked to the actual Christmas event, but I don't believe there is a connection in any other way to it.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't know who this Dr. beuf is that you reference.

Without being able to prove anything, I do (strongly) suspect that more people were involved in this than we know. In other words, people outside of the immediate R family but close to them.

Dr. Beuf is JB's pediatrician. He was also a close friend of the Rs. Oddly, he also attended Patsy during her stay at friend's after the family left the house the evening of the 26th. He kept her pretty drugged up, then refused to allow police to interview her. Odd that Patsy wasn't treated by her own doctor. This same pediatrician said he'd put JB's medical records in a safe rather than let police seem them. That is truly suspect. Your patient has been murdered violently. Yet you REFUSE to allow investigators to see her medical records. Had this case come to trial, I would hope this doctor would have been questioned and forced ot turn over those records. Then, police could know the truth behind all those doctor visits and the THREE phone calls, one after another, just days before her death. Patsy claimed to "not remember" why she called a doctor for her daughter THREE times in a row.
This doctor also claimed that he never saw an evidence of sexual abuse, yet he also admitted he NEVER LOOKED for any. To see the eroded hymen, widened vaginal canal, and any bruising or injuries where they were actually located in JB's vagina, he'd have have to do an internal exam. That is certainly NOT part of a normal exam for a child, and would never be done in a pediatrician's office anyway- it would have been done under anesthesia in a hospital or similar setting.

 

[UKGuy]

I hate to be the pooper of the party, but I don't believe the date of JBR's death has anything other than a tragic "festive season" aspect to it.

Events of the day/evening are of course linked to the actual Christmas event, but I don't believe there is a connection in any other way to it.

wonderllama,
So its simply a crime of impulse? Nothing to do with opportunity, something that might have occurred days later in the R's vacation since it was a matter of circumstance?

 

[UKGuy]

The fact that the batteries were wiped down indicates to me that there were fingerprints on them that LE was not meant to see. Putting new batteries in the flashlight indicates it was used as a light source. One of the R neighbors in fact reported seeing what looked like a flashlight being used in the dark basement.

You are the one who keeps implying the flashlight was the head bash weapon so I am asking you what evidence do you have to support that? The flashlight being wiped clean is not evidence to support it as a murder weapon. True, it could it be both a light source and a murder weapon, but unless there is evidence to support it, it is pure speculation to say that the flash light was the head bash weapon.

Anyhoo,

The fact that the batteries were wiped down indicates to me that there were fingerprints on them that LE was not meant to see. Putting new batteries in the flashlight indicates it was used as a light source. One of the R neighbors in fact reported seeing what looked like a flashlight being used in the dark basement.

Your indications might be misplaced. New batteries wow, now how do we know this? What the neighbors saw might have nothing to do with the flashlight at all?

You are the one who keeps implying the flashlight was the head bash weapon so I am asking you what evidence do you have to support that? The flashlight being wiped clean is not evidence to support it as a murder weapon. True, it could it be both a light source and a murder weapon, but unless there is evidence to support it, it is pure speculation to say that the flash light was the head bash weapon.

Why bother with evidence, you offer none yourself. It must also be speculation that it was used as a light source.

Here is another nugget for those that like the flashlight theory:


The flashlight may have been used to whack JonBenet on the head, and left at the primary crime-scene, but another R recognized the flashlight and the current staging were incogruous, i.e. because the flashlight belonged to the R's it implicated them, so it was removed and as a fail safe procedure, wiped clean. Then the wine-cellar staging was undertaken.

Aternatively the same realization was made by JR later that morning so he removed the flashlight.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

Actually, it was not the basement that a neighbor reported seeing the flashlight being used. It was the KITCHEN window. The neighbor reported seeing "strange, moving lights" in the R kitchen window right around midnight. The time of night that occurred fits the timeline of events as most see it.

 

[Anyhoo]

Anyhoo,
Your indications might be misplaced. New batteries wow, now how do we know this? What the neighbors saw might have nothing to do with the flashlight at all?

We know it because someone felt compelled to wipe down the batteries. Just think about it. If you have a working flashlight with good batteries, there would be no need to conceal fingerprints on the batteries. In that case someone in the family (JR or PR) fingerprints on them, so what? But if the batteries had to be changed by someone not in the R family, then they need to be wiped down. The batteries were wiped down, meaning someone needed to change them to make the flashlight work. Its simple deduction.

Why bother with evidence, you offer none yourself. It must also be speculation that it was used as a light source.

There is no need to be argumentative. I am just asking a question. What evidence do you have that the flashlight was used as the murder weapon? I did offer evidence of the flashlight being used as a light source. 1. The wiped down batteries. You don't need to put batteries in a flashlight that is not going to be used as a lightsource. 2. Someone saw strange lights in the kitchen, which would make sense to be this flashlight.

 

[Anyhoo]

Actually, it was not the basement that a neighbor reported seeing the flashlight being used. It was the KITCHEN window. The neighbor reported seeing "strange, moving lights" in the R kitchen window right around midnight. The time of night that occurred fits the timeline of events as most see it.

Yes, I stand corrected. It was in the kitchen window. I propose that what was seen in this very same flashlight we are discussing in this thread. Now, why would they use a flashlight to move through the dark kitchen on the way to the basement? Can you imagine how terrified JBR was as she was being led through the darkened kitchen and down the basement stairs in the middle of the night, and she knew what was going to take place down there. Something that had happened perhaps many times before. Bad nasty things that she didn't want to take part in.

 

[wonderllama]

wonderllama,
So its simply a crime of impulse? Nothing to do with opportunity, something that might have occurred days later in the R's vacation since it was a matter of circumstance?

Pretty much.
I think the only planning in this case occurred right after the crime began.

I don't think there was any premeditation in the initial event, only the cover up.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, I stand corrected. It was in the kitchen window. I propose that what was seen in this very same flashlight we are discussing in this thread. Now, why would they use a flashlight to move through the dark kitchen on the way to the basement? Can you imagine how terrified JBR was as she was being led through the darkened kitchen and down the basement stairs in the middle of the night, and she knew what was going to take place down there. Something that had happened perhaps many times before. Bad nasty things that she didn't want to take part in.

I feel JB had already been bashed at that point. She was unconscious, dead or dying. I hope that whatever happened to her that night, that she WAS knocked out for most of it. Unfortunately, she did scream, so we know that something hurt her enough for that to happen. Probably whatever caused her vaginal bleeding.

 

[SunVenus]

Pretty much.
I think the only planning in this case occurred right after the crime began.

I don't think there was any premeditation in the initial event, only the cover up.

I'm with wonderllama on this-- no premediation in the murder whatsoever, and to bring it back to the original topic, no ritualistic symbolism whatsoever to the date of the crime. It was a crime of opportunity as were any prior acts of sexual abuse-- and that is bad enough. All I see a case for is a very sick family dynamic that came to a head sometime late Christmas Day night.

 

[SunVenus]

Yes, I stand corrected. It was in the kitchen window. I propose that what was seen in this very same flashlight we are discussing in this thread. Now, why would they use a flashlight to move through the dark kitchen on the way to the basement? Can you imagine how terrified JBR was as she was being led through the darkened kitchen and down the basement stairs in the middle of the night, and she knew what was going to take place down there. Something that had happened perhaps many times before. Bad nasty things that she didn't want to take part in.

We don't know definitively what weapon caused the head injury. The flashlight looks good for it, but the autopsy photos of JBR's skull show a very odd fracture that potentially points to other items-- known to be in the home-- that could have been utilised (e.g. a golf club). Tragically, we just don't know. But I do agree that it is highly suspicious that the flashlight & batteries had both been wiped down.

IMO the flashlight was likely used in at least the staging-- to move about the darkened house (a neighbour stated that the usual outdoor security lights were off that evening when they looked at the R home) in order to not arouse one or possibly two sleeping family members, and to minimise what may have been odd or abnormal switching on & off of indoor lighting during the staging attempts that might have aroused the suspicions of casual neighbourhood observers.

By the way, the idea the killer was deliberately terrrorising JBR by leading her though a dark house down to the basement to molest & kill her is not likely. She may well have already been unconscious at that point due to the head injury (I think this is highly likely). We don't know where she was bashed, where she was strangled, and we have a small but not (as far as I know) definitive indication (urine stain on basement carpet) of where she ultimately died, IIRC. I think your concept of a scary, ritualistic, horror movie type scenario is overblown and reaching. In between your assertion here of a deliberate terrorisation of JBR (beyond the already horrific known facts of abuse & murder) and your idea that there is some ritualised pattern to the crime and machinations of a mysterious "they" to confuse the evidence & facts to halt any sort of prosecution in this case makes me wonder about your agenda. You've stated on this thread and on others that you have a theory-- why don't you share it? I'd be quite interested to hear (read?) it.

 

[Anyhoo]

We don't know definitively what weapon caused the head injury. The flashlight looks good for it, but the autopsy photos of JBR's skull show a very odd fracture that potentially points to other items-- known to be in the home-- that could have been utilised (e.g. a golf club). Tragically, we just don't know. But I do agree that it is highly suspicious that the flashlight & batteries had both been wiped down.

IMO the flashlight was likely used in at least the staging-- to move about the darkened house (a neighbour stated that the usual outdoor security lights were off that evening when they looked at the R home) in order to not arouse one or possibly two sleeping family members, and to minimise what may have been odd or abnormal switching on & off of indoor lighting during the staging attempts that might have aroused the suspicions of casual neighbourhood observers.

By the way, the idea the killer was deliberately terrrorising JBR by leading her though a dark house down to the basement to molest & kill her is not likely. She may well have already been unconscious at that point due to the head injury (I think this is highly likely). We don't know where she was bashed, where she was strangled, and we have a small but not (as far as I know) definitive indication (urine stain on basement carpet) of where she ultimately died, IIRC. I think your concept of a scary, ritualistic, horror movie type scenario is overblown and reaching. In between your assertion here of a deliberate terrorisation of JBR (beyond the already horrific known facts of abuse & murder) and your idea that there is some ritualised pattern to the crime and machinations of a mysterious "they" to confuse the evidence & facts to halt any sort of prosecution in this case makes me wonder about your agenda. You've stated on this thread and on others that you have a theory-- why don't you share it? I'd be quite interested to hear (read?) it.

The only agenda I have is trying to solve this case. Actually in the post you quoted, I was envisioning JR leading JB down to the basement to be sexually molested. I do not have a single theory about what happened. Every theory I come up with is seemingly contradicted by other evidence in the case. The same is true with every theory I have ever read about it. If we cherry-pick the evidence, then one theory seems to float the to the top as being valid, but if you look at the totality of the evidence, no definitive conclusion can be reached. I have been trying to look outside the box for answers but truely I do not know at this point.

 

[SunVenus]

The only agenda I have is trying to solve this case. Actually in the post you quoted, I was envisioning JR leading JB down to the basement to be sexually molested. I do not have a single theory about what happened. Every theory I come up with is seemingly contradicted by other evidence in the case. The same is true with every theory I have ever read about it. If we cherry-pick the evidence, then one theory seems to float the to the top as being valid, but if you look at the totality of the evidence, no definitive conclusion can be reached. I have been trying to look outside the box for answers but truely I do not know at this point.

Thanks Anyhoo, that is an agenda we all share.

But when it comes to "cherry picking" evidence, well, you’ll have to admit that if this case had ever seen real legal action, both sides-- the prosecution & the defence-- would have also "cherry-picked" evidence that supported their particular argument. This doesn't mean that all evidence wouldn't have been looked at, considered, but rather the strongest evidence would have been used to make the case. To give a personal RL example, I was stalked, kidnapped and assaulted back in 1991 by a serial rapist. After all the investigations, the prosecution selected specific evidence ("cherry picked" so to speak) as certain evidence was stronger. Specifically they used the blood & fingerprint evidence from my assault as the main evidence even though I did not see my attackers face the night of the assault, but I did fight with him and caused him injury before he knocked me out. I testified with my "eyewitness account" though I’d not seen his face in the attack which for an "eyewitness" account whilst not identifying his face it did ID the as it plausibly demonstrated how his bloodloss & bloody fingerprints were caused, and reinforced his MO in the other assaults. Over the two year period there were eleven other victims who could have testified but there was a dearth of physical evidence so our prosecution team selected two other witnesses to testify who had gotten clear, strong looks at him as he did the same to them, and they could give the both the most reliable eyewitness testimony (facial & body recognition) and also confirmed his MO. This wasn't to say that other victims of his didn't have information & evidence against him, but they went with the strongest evidence to get the conviction. Conversely, the defence team tried to play up the fact (“cherry-picked”) that I didn't see his face at the assault itself (but neglected to mention that I had seen him skulking around my flat before the attack)-- but that "evidence" wasn't as strong. They wanted to inflate that, but his blood & prints trumped that argument properly. So sure, there's always some cherry-picking in play, but it has to be for expedience sake & to build a strong case.

What I am saying is that in a legal proceeding, evidence IS cherry-picked (which doesn’t mean that all evidence is ignored or discounted). In the case of JBR we have all the different factors to look at, and a few bits of alleged evidence which selectively chosen & interpreted (and IMO really reaching) could point to an intruder as the Ramsey family desperately wishes people to believe. But that evidence with other combined evidence can more logically be read as staging & cover-up by one or more of the Ramseys. IMO the totality of everything we've seen & know about the JBR murder case points to a Ramsey (or more than one R) being a murder, and at least 2 R’s participating in the cover-up. (And for the record, I don’t know which Ramsey did what, but I feel sure both adults were involved in some aspect, and sadly, it looks like BR may have been as well.) This crime was-- sadly-- not the only one wherein a sick family dynamic comes to a head at a particularly stressful time of the year, and given that we outsiders like to look in and want an answer, we tend to look at many, many factors which may not be evidence-- perhaps just coincidence, or perhaps just not as useful to the core of the case.

And last point-- we don't have all the evidence. Some things are deliberately withheld from the public, and we have little to no idea what was presented in the grand jury. So as outsiders, we are at a loss. We can consider the bits and pieces as we find them out, but we don’t have the full picture. The way I’ve looked at it is that so many red herrings have been tossed in that it is hard to separate fact from fiction, to try not to read into things which may only be peripheral or even completely bogus. So when I hear hoof beats, I expect horses, not zebras. These crimes (children murdered & molested in the home) most often occur en famille, so until some evidence comes up that points elsewhere, I work this case with Occam’s Razor.

Sorry, I'm only on my first cup of coffee this morning and I'm not sure that I'm making sense.

Suffice it to say, this case is convoluted, filled with deliberate misdirection by R's and their legal Rottweilers (no offense to actual Rotties!) That combined with the Ramsey’s non-cooperation on key factors and their bizarre arrogance and their self-righteous attitude of sheer gall that anyone could dare suspect these "fine, upstanding, white, wealthy, Christian pillars of the community” (sarcasm) doesn't exonerate them (despite what ML and other legal hired guns have to say), rather it colours them even more suspect. IMO if they were truly innocent, the natural procedures to look at them as perps shouldn't bother them-- if it were my kid I'd open my life for any and all investigation to move past the sadly all too common fact that murders are often committed by family members. Dig up if you can anything to clear me as a statistically likely suspect then move on to who really committed the crime. If the Ramsey’s had nothing to hide they'd not have hired corrupt legal workers to muddy the waters. Oh sure, lawyering up is their right, and often a good choice even if you are innocent but so much about how they went about it points to something else; i.e. non-cooperation, obfuscation, non-transparency, etc. Is it a conspiracy? Yes, in a legally defined criminal sense to keep them out of jail, but not a big, omnipotent scheme of a bright criminal cabal of the tin-foil hat variety. The Ramsey’s success at avoiding prosecution had a big helping of dumb luck, societal bias and a DA office with its own sick issues to make the investigation a complete train wreck.

 

[Anyhoo]

Thanks for the long reply. Let me ask you, do you believe this cold case will ever be solved? I know its a long time since it occurred, but I still hold out hope that something in the future will be revealed that will shed new light on the case in such a way that it can be finally solved. JB deserves to have justice and I want to see those who took part in her murder get the punishment they deserve. As they said in the X-Files, "The truth is out there." The Truth IS out there, but it its just mixed in very thoroughly with a lot of falsehood in such a way that the truth cannot separated from the rest currently. But it can be understood and solved. I am still looking for a solution.

 

[SunVenus]

Thanks for the long reply. Let me ask you, do you believe this cold case will ever be solved? I know its a long time since it occurred, but I still hold out hope that something in the future will be revealed that will shed new light on the case in such a way that it can be finally solved. JB deserves to have justice and I want to see those who took part in her murder get the punishment they deserve. As they said in the X-Files, "The truth is out there." The Truth IS out there, but it its just mixed in very thoroughly with a lot of falsehood in such a way that the truth cannot separated from the rest currently. But it can be understood and solved. I am still looking for a solution.

Oh god... that is the question with which I am wrestling. Will it be solved? I am starting to think that it won't. I had more optimism before but as of late I feel stymied. I think things have been so hampered, tampered and scattered that resolution may be next to impossible. But I am often wrong, am often pleassantly surprised by things in life. I dearly wish it would be solved. The truth IS out there, you & Mulder (yummy!) are right on that. But we may never be privy to the truth, and that sucks, but is a fact of life. So I try to hold onto hope, and I've followed this case since day 1 so I guess I have't given up. I'm an historian by trade and we make new discoveries in that field on old mysteries from time to time so I have the tenacity to not let go. But I will admit I super frustrated with this case right now, and I've had to back away a bit for my own sanity. The great thing is that on tis forum (and in other places too) there are a lot of us who follow this case, who expend time, energy & skull sweat in working it. There are enough of us that when, say, I need a break, others are still working diligently, and we get newcomers with new fire & energy. So there is a possibility, and there is always hope.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Oh god... that is the question with which I am wrestling. Will it be solved? I am starting to think that it won't. I had more optimism before but as of late I feel stymied. I think things have been so hampered, tampered and scattered that resolution may be next to impossible. But I am often wrong, am often pleassantly surprised by things in life. I dearly wish it would be solved. The truth IS out there, you & Mulder (yummy!) are right on that. But we may never be privy to the truth, and that sucks, but is a fact of life. So I try to hold onto hope, and I've followed this case since day 1 so I guess I have't given up. I'm an historian by trade and we make new discoveries in that field on old mysteries from time to time so I have the tenacity to not let go. But I will admit I super frustrated with this case right now, and I've had to back away a bit for my own sanity. The great thing is that on tis forum (and in other places too) there are a lot of us who follow this case, who expend time, energy & skull sweat in working it. There are enough of us that when, say, I need a break, others are still working diligently, and we get newcomers with new fire & energy. So there is a possibility, and there is always hope.

Being a historian, you also know that history itself judges.

It is already.

Despite the fancy lawyers, the tv interviews, the protestations, even an "exoneration", the majority of Americans now believe RDI.

This is probably largely because of the lack of a repeat crime, either before or since. It speaks volumes. An "offender" like this does not just come out of nowhere and commit such unspeakable acts, with no escalation, no fingerprints, no repeat performance, no trace whatsoever.

I will bet my house the "DNA" is never identified either.

:banghead:

 

[SunVenus]

Being a historian, you also know that history itself judges.

It is already.

Despite the fancy lawyers, the tv interviews, the protestations, even an "exoneration", the majority of Americans now believe RDI.

This is probably largely because of the lack of a repeat crime, either before or since. It speaks volumes. An "offender" like this does not just come out of nowhere and commit such unspeakable acts, with no escalation, no fingerprints, no repeat performance, no trace whatsoever.

I will bet my house the "DNA" is never identified either.

:banghead:

Yes, you are right. And some of the lessons I've had to be an historian are pretty disconcerting, but are useful.

1) All of history is opinion.
2) Those who don't learn from hsitory are doomed to repeat it.
3) Every time we learn from hsitory, the price of the lesson goes up.
4) Judgements of history vary with time & circumstance. (Caveat: in this case, if nothing changes in what we know, the RDI guilt "verdict" in the public mind will long-- rightfully IMO-- persist. This isn't the case, for example, in how one might view the administrations of Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan, two topics that have been running hot & heavy in my community.)

That said, I am :banghead: too. Your point about no repeat crime with those circumstances in the nearly two deacdes since this travesty occurred suggests only one thing to me: RDI, and that it wasn't pre-meditated. It was simply (maybe not so simple) a crime of passion & opportunity. Now we take that ugly lesson and must do what we can to identify other at risk family dynamics and save lives.

 

[jeeps]

One thought: the flashlight was offered as part of the staging (as has been stated already in this thread) for two reasons:

-To suggest the killer used it to navigate the house
-To seem like the weapon used to kill JBR

If it's the latter, it's being used to draw attention away from other possible weapons. I.e. the golf clubs JR so desperately needed, or the aluminum bat that was known to have belonged to BR (as learned by the grand jury, referenced in one of Michael Kane's interviews with the parents)

 

[DeeDee249]

One thought: the flashlight was offered as part of the staging (as has been stated already in this thread) for two reasons:

-To suggest the killer used it to navigate the house
-To seem like the weapon used to kill JBR

If it's the latter, it's being used to draw attention away from other possible weapons. I.e. the golf clubs JR so desperately needed, or the aluminum bat that was known to have belonged to BR (as learned by the grand jury, referenced in one of Michael Kane's interviews with the parents)

The flashlight likely WAS used to navigate the house. A neighbor reported seeing "strange, moving lights" through the kitchen window.

 

[midwest mama]

The flashlight likely WAS used to navigate the house. A neighbor reported seeing "strange, moving lights" through the kitchen window.

The R's house was close enough to others in the neighborhood that with lights on in the house that time of night, someone might have been identifiable if seen moving around the house, so it makes sense for the perp to have lights out and be using a flashlight for navigation. What are the chances an intruder would have known where to find the R's flashlight to use for that purpose, as opposed to the R's knowing exactly.

The flashlight is a definite bugaboo of a clue, but it points to the R's much more definitively than an intruder IMO.