Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[Parkie]

Elastic I`m sorry but truck drivers/ abbatoir workers aren`t usually highly intelligent. He is not the CSK. They might have a link from Karrakatta to CG but imho it will not help if they don`t have the bloke. And especially if he is a long long way from Claremont. And there is always the case of say the possibility of two guys & they didn`t find any DNA of one of them at all.

 

[Sutton]

Hi everyone, i have been asked to advise on how the police can obtain a DNA sample from a suspect.

Here is a link to Western Australian law.

DNA samples

Police can take samples from people charged with, or suspected of, committing a serious offence that carries a statutory penalty of 12 months or more, regardless of the actual sentence imposed.

So if there are any suspects, they can take a DNA sample from them. I expect they would first get an order from a judge after showing some evidence of why they consider the person a suspect. Of course they could just ask the person first and there would be no need for an order.

http://www.police.wa.gov.au/Ourservices/Identifyingpeople/DNAsamples/tabid/1083/Default.aspx

Thanks for posting a straight forward answer. That is a very permissive statute--DNA can be collected from anyone suspected of a serious crime (with penalty stipulations).

This causes a big problem for my theory, if police actually do have DNA. The articles indicate a forensic link, so it's possible they are referring to fibers or tire impressions or something else.

If police were able to collect DNA from Ciara, then they would have been able to collect from and test against Judoman.

 

[elastic]

Elastic I`m sorry but truck drivers/ abbatoir workers aren`t usually highly intelligent. He is not the CSK. They might have a link from Karrakatta to CG but imho it will not help if they don`t have the bloke. And especially if he is a long long way from Claremont. And there is always the case of say the possibility of two guys & they didn`t find any DNA of one of them at all.

Well that is a really dumb thing to say. There have been plenty of truck driver serial killers in the USA. Also I wouldn't lump everyone into the same category and call them stupid based on an occupation. There are some incredibly smart people in society who are good at certain things, Morey is a killing machine, he only needs to be intelligent at killing, and he has the nous for it.

also explain what you think Morey was doing prior to 1998? sitting around thinking about being a serial killer?

given Morey's age I very much doubt he only started killing in 1998, he has probably been at this for decades.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Is that billboard new? Or is it from 1996?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Lance Williams

I think the only thing he will be able to get compensation for is Macro leaking his details. They have denied and will deny it but a rational judge will rule that police leaked it.

LW says he doesn't want to sue. That's suspicious in my books.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Thanks for posting a straight forward answer. That is a very permissive statute--DNA can be collected from anyone suspected of a serious crime (with penalty stipulations).

This causes a big problem for my theory, if police actually do have DNA. The articles indicate a forensic link, so it's possible they are referring to fibers or tire impressions or something else.

If police were able to collect DNA from Ciara, then they would have been able to collect from and test against Judoman.

The law may as well be "citizens have no rights because police can take your DNA whenever they feel fit".

In WA, if your house is used for crime, even if you're unaware of it, the courts can seize your house. An enderly couple owned and lived in their home for decades. They bought the house with honest money. They were unaware their 45 year old son was a pot dealer and stash a few pounds in their roof space. He got busted. The Court acknowledged the couple were law abiding and probably didn't know about the drugs. Court seizes their house off them. Another time a woman's ex-husband sexually assaulted some years before in their marital home (now her home). Court seized house.

WA. WTF?

 

[Sutton]

...So has Morey started with the claremont victims and satisfied his MO with killing pretty rich girls, He would be the perfect candidate for a blitz attack, he is big and powerful, a former abattoir worker, smart, highly intelligent, smug (He sat there and testified to the coroner than Sarah McMahon was still alive and blatantly lied when he is most definitely the killer), knows how to hide evidence, is an expert at hiding bodies and knows the bush areas and surrounds of Perth better than probably anyone. Now with the heat on he moves across to the sex areas of Perth, he is a serial killer, he needs to kill, so he gets his urges this way for a while, he picks up numerous street girls, the Police look the other way, they have a suspect by now and he continues to kill in the background.

Morey is supposedly fires blanks, I have read that rapists who are impotent don't leave behind DNA. They don't have DNA in their semen, he could be the Karrakatta rapist and have left behind NO DNA!

They locked Morey up and gave him what 16 years, he will be out in the next few years.. In WA our sentences run concurrently, if you are locked up for 20 years and are charged for another 20 years after serving a few years you only do 22 years for both crimes... Now all of a sudden a year or two out they have evidence, they are going to crack the case, all the reviews up untill now have concluded the police have done the right thing. Maybe the Police know its Morey, they know if they charge him for the Karrakatta murder and have a link to the Ciara Glennon murder they can make the charge stick that he also killed Sarah Spiers and Jane Rimmer, without any direct evidence. Maybe they are waiting to charge the man soon so he stays in prison? Who knows but it all seems a little sus that he now appears to be a MAJOR suspect and people arent being afraid to come out with it...

RSBM. You have a good argument for Morey. Here are my 'hold-outs':

1. DNA! If Morey is the CSK, they don't have DNA (see impotence issue below)

2. The behavior pattern isn't right-Morey does a very tidy job abducting, killing and disposing of three very high risk victims. No one sees anything, even though he would seem out-of-place in Claremont and I don't think it would be his natural hunting grounds. But he pulls everything off without a hitch.

His lust temporarily satisfied he holds off while police pressure is at its highest. Morey then makes an obvious disappearance of Sarah Mcmahon. He regresses in his skill and sophistication. Morey then decides to go for sex workers, very low risk victims bc they willingly get in his vehicle. But he lets the situation with one of the girls gets out of hand and everything falls apart.

I guess this is possible, maybe he became manic or he just devolved. Its more than just sloppiness.

Impotence means unable to achieve or sustain an erection. Morey wouldn't be firing anything if he was impotent. Non-secreters do not leave behind DNA (there is brand new science in this, idk what though). Even sterile men ejaculate DNA (unless they are non-secreter). IMO, I'm not an ED expert.

The last part of your post sounds fanciful, but I will have a new admiration for police if it's true. It would explain why the victims' families have never really spoken out against police (idk the attitude there, that might not be acceptable).

 

[Bartholemeus]

So if all the suspects have now been cleared.

Who were the official suspects, we know Lance Williams, we also know Steve Ross, so who was officially a suspect, Peter Weygers, although they raided him based on a psychics thoughts, how keystone can you get?

Judoman, Weygers, Dixie.

All would have provided DNA and seemingly all are ruled out.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Lets get back to Morey as he come onto the radar recently. Reading a news article on Debbie Marshall she undoubtedly believes Sarah McMahons murder was a CSK kill. This was at a time when Morey was known to Police and locked up in prison for his attempted murder after abducting a prostitute.

Lots of people though SM was a CSK victim because she was last seen in Claremont. Lots of people also though Hayley Dodd was too. Once the evidence came out about Morey it was obvious be did SM and most people assumed he wasn't the CSK.

Then we had Con Bayens come out recently and basically name Morey whilst not specifically identifying the POI.

Whilst I think it's Morey, Bayens gave no indication who he was talking about.

No one can provide any proof at all about Morey being locked up during these years, or that Morey was out of the State, its been assumed, but never proven, thus blows this case wide open. Not one article at all can be found, or any news paper ruling him out, yet the News Papers have been happy to comment on Morey being a susepcted serial killer and The West had him branded all over the front page with the words 'Killer' or some such sprayed across the paper around the time the documentary was coming out with the new POI being identified, Judoman and a sexual predator who carries a knife... Morey is a former Abattoir worker, a knife specialist in everyway.

CIA didn't say knife. They said gun and ammo concealed under front passenger seat.

The rest is a reasonable case. I wonder how highly police rate him?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Nah, S.R. Debi Marshall was on about. First up on Ten News a min ago at 5pm was LW old footage & Quigley quips up re compensation for LW since the Karrakatta Guy is linked. Now; Telstra stuff has come up a bit. Did the CSK know a Telco in some way? Pal? Landlord? Employer?

Where's the Telstra stuff coming from? The media? Or from this thread?

 

[Parkie]

Ok, They have DNA from Karrakatta. Maybe he didn`t care cause of a little while after this case and after the main 3 he quit his employment & nicked off overseas cause he saw DNA testing was coming. Maybe he could not risk being still in this town. Is he responsible for the skirt ripping/taking & head bashing in the lane behind Hungry Jacks? This shows the not so nice guy she was chatting up at the pub but a violent offender for sure.The attack at Coles Loading dock? The fleeing of a taxi with the woman getting a broken ankle? The Davies Road attack & lo & behold the Now linked Karrakatta case? All a bit close to Claremont IMHO. His home base for a spell?

 

[drpath]

I refer here to the coroner's report on Sarah McMahon's disappearance and suspected death, as posted by someone earlier in the thread (forgive me for forgetting who shared the link).

The coroner's report implicates Morey in Sarah's murder. He was her last known contact (he called her mobile) on the evening that she disappeared. He stated that she had left the country and was still in contact with him via phone and text after she disappeared, but he could not provide any evidence to corroborate that story. Police also found no evidence of phone records indicating he had contact with her after she disappeared.

Sarah McMahon does not fit with a CSK kill. Firstly, he seems to have a "type" that he preferred as all of the known CSK victims had a similar appearance. Sarah McMahon looked very different to Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer, and Ciara Glennon. Additionally, Morey's purported killing of Sarah does not appear to have the level of organisation of a CSK kill and 2 other people (Allen and his wife) are alleged to have some involvement in the concealment of the crime.

The CSK is meticulously organised. His crimes had no known witnesses. He was careful, precise. He enjoys killing. The cemetery rape was committed by one individual and there is a forensic link to Ciara Glennon's murder. Sarah McMahon's murder could not be more different from the known CSK crimes. I don't think that the CSK would risk getting caught or want his crimes to be witnessed. The CSK likes his privacy. I don't believe that Sarah McMahon's murder was a CSK kill, and I don't believe that Morey is/was the Claremont Serial Killer. I think that the Claremont Serial Killer is unknown to the police at this stage.

 

[elastic]

Judoman, Weygers, Dixie.

All would have provided DNA and seemingly all are ruled out.

So when was Judoman officially made a suspect?

We know from the CIA episode that he is, they mention he is a 'martial arts expert from a wealthy English (Or do they say 'British') Family' But when have the Police ever bothered to make it public?

We know Steve Ross was on the radar early on, and then Weygers, and ofcourse Lance Williams... They were official!

Then we had Dixie, positively ruled out.

They had a last ditch effort to get Weygers using a psychics word before disbanding their efforts against him and basically ruling him out, Steve Ross hasnt seemed on the radar since. This was around the time of Moreys arrest so they obviously wanted one last attempt to see what their man had before they turned their focus from Weygers and Ross to Judoman and Possibly Morey.

They gave up on Lance a while back, I think it was 2007? around the time of the CIA episode production, so they knew then their focus had shifted entirely.

The Police as far as I am aware have not official announced Judoman or the Sexual Predator/Con Bayens possible POI so this is something the documenatry crew unofficially revealed possibly to scare the two POI's

Does anyone have anything substantial for Judoman so we can see how he measures up to Morey?

 

[Bartholemeus]

I believe Judoman appeared on the radar in the lead up to the CIA episode as that episode was built around him. So maybe 2007/2008-ish at a guess. They would have likely obtained his DNA.


If they have DNA from the Karrakatta rape then god-damn send it off so a facial profile can be developed. My gut feeling is this is nothing but a police strategy to try and lure the CSK out.

 

[elastic]

I refer here to the coroner's report on Sarah McMahon's disappearance and suspected death, as posted by someone earlier in the thread (forgive me for forgetting who shared the link).

The coroner's report implicates Morey in Sarah's murder. He was her last known contact (he called her mobile) on the evening that she disappeared. He stated that she had left the country and was still in contact with him via phone and text after she disappeared, but he could not provide any evidence to corroborate that story. Police also found no evidence of phone records indicating he had contact with her after she disappeared.

Sarah McMahon does not fit with a CSK kill. Firstly, he seems to have a "type" that he preferred as all of the known CSK victims had a similar appearance. Sarah McMahon looked very different to Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer, and Ciara Glennon. Additionally, Morey's purported killing of Sarah does not appear to have the level of organisation of a CSK kill and 2 other people (Allen and his wife) are alleged to have some involvement in the concealment of the crime.

The CSK is meticulously organised. His crimes had no known witnesses. He was careful, precise. He enjoys killing. The cemetery rape was committed by one individual and there is a forensic link to Ciara Glennon's murder. Sarah McMahon's murder could not be more different from the known CSK crimes. I don't think that the CSK would risk getting caught or want his crimes to be witnessed. The CSK likes his privacy. I don't believe that Sarah McMahon's murder was a CSK kill, and I don't believe that Morey is/was the Claremont Serial Killer. I think that the Claremont Serial Killer is unknown to the police at this stage.

Yeah but that is all specualtive and really doesnt answer anything. Anyone can change their MO etc Look at Richard Dorrough, obviously a smart killer, he managed to get off two suspicious cases and attempt to mow a person down with his car and barely spent any time in Prison for numerous killings... He was sloppy between kills and used a car.

Now back to the CSK, a cemetery rapist hiding in the bushes, doesn't sound that meticulous, seems more like bad police work than a super human serial killer... Taking those bodies to those dump sites would have been minimal effort... He left the bodies in the open...

Now back to Sarah McMahon and Sarah Spiers, I quite often confuse the two when I see them in articles, there is no way he chose a particular type of 'looking' female, given all the victims different body shapes he took the first obvious target, an alone woman, bungled them into a car in a Blitz attack with no one round but a bunch of drunks, bound them with cord or rope, possibly choked them unconscious and then stabbed them senseless in a rural spot where blood would easily wash away if it rained or would be hard to find, and then dumped the body somewhere close to the kill spot.. What the girls looked like is irrelavent, a girl alone was the target.

Now it is becoming pretty obvious that if the Police had poured the right resources into the Karrakatta rape in 1995 then the whole thing would be 'case closed' but they didn't, just like when Dixie raped the asian student, they didn't bother to DNA test him and see if it was connected, then they deported him, the police back then were below average at best, everyone suspected a superhuman super intelligent sophisticated serial killer, rather than just think logically about the case. Its just some dude abducting girls alone with some rope, bundling them into the back of a car, he already made the massive mistake of allowing his rape victim to escape, so his intelligence begs the question, he made his mistake straight away, but got away with it, he refined himself and had some successful kills, that is our serial killer.

 

[Parkie]

I recon DrPath is way on the ball that any of you. Mr. M is not involved & SMM is not a victim of the CSK. Elastic I see, is starting to become wise in DRPaths thoughts. The Police have all along said SMM case is not linked to CSK. SMM car, phone, witnesses to her travels are all apparent. Did the CSK leave anything at the scenes? My bet is 98% not.

 

[elastic]

I recon DrPath is way on the ball that any of you. Mr. M is not involved & SMM is not a victim of the CSK. Elastic I see, is starting to become wise in DRPaths thoughts. The Police have all along said SMM case is not linked to CSK. SMM car, phone, witnesses to her travels are all apparent. Did the CSK leave anything at the scenes? My bet is 98% not.

You have no substantial proof he is not, but you insist on ruling him out...

What I find laughable is this:

Sarah McMahon does not fit with a CSK kill. Firstly, he seems to have a "type" that he preferred as all of the known CSK victims had a similar appearance. Sarah McMahon looked very different to Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer, and Ciara Glennon. Additionally, Morey's purported killing of Sarah does not appear to have the level of organisation of a CSK kill and 2 other people (Allen and his wife) are alleged to have some involvement in the concealment of the crime.

The CSK is meticulously organised. His crimes had no known witnesses. He was careful, precise. He enjoys killing. The cemetery rape was committed by one individual and there is a forensic link to Ciara Glennon's murder. Sarah McMahon's murder could not be more different from the known CSK crimes. I don't think that the CSK would risk getting caught or want his crimes to be witnessed. The CSK likes his privacy. I don't believe that Sarah McMahon's murder was a CSK kill, and I don't believe that Morey is/was the Claremont Serial Killer. I think that the Claremont Serial Killer is unknown to the police at this stage.

So he is precise and highly 'skilled', yet his bungles people into VAN's or Vehicles with cord and rapes them in cemetery's, letting them escape, and almost getting himself 'caught' by trying to have sex with them at a CEMETARY!, yet he is thought of as being some meticulously organised individual. How sloppy did he have to be, he could have been caught because he attempted to'rape' before he killed, obviously realized what a massive mistake this was and refined himself to bypass the rape and go straight for the kill the next time, because at the end of the day the kill is his fantasy, not the rape.

With this sort of thought process its no wonder 20 years have passed.

I wonder what sort of individual hides around looking for woman to rape late at night and has the time to dump their bodies before day break? Someone who does Meth, lots of criminals in WA are meth addicts, Morey has links to Meth.

Also Sarah McMahon doesnt fit into his other kills either, the sex workers, he changed his MO, she was opportunist, hit him up for some ICE and they went off and he killed her, he thought no one would know but they traced his phone and triangulated it... That is rumour and not proven by the way so do not add that McMahon was with Morey to go get Meth as a fact just yet.

 

[billywhizz]

If they have DNA from the Karrakatta rape then god-damn send it off so a facial profile can be developed. My gut feeling is this is nothing but a police strategy to try and lure the CSK out.

Would the facial profile show what he looked like 20 years ago? Or would they risk inaccuracy by trying to project to present day?

 

[billywhizz]

You have no substantial proof he is not, but you insist on ruling him out...

What I find laughable is this:



So he is precise and highly 'skilled', yet his bungles people into VAN's or Vehicles with cord and rapes them in cemetery's, letting them escape, and almost getting himself 'caught' by trying to have sex with them at a CEMETARY!, yet he is thought of as being some meticulously organised individual. How sloppy did he have to be, he could have been caught because he attempted to'rape' before he killed, obviously realized what a massive mistake this was and refined himself to bypass the rape and go straight for the kill the next time, because at the end of the day the kill is his fantasy, not the rape.

With this sort of thought process its no wonder 20 years have passed.

I wonder what sort of individual hides around looking for woman to rape late at night and has the time to dump their bodies before day break? Someone who does Meth, lots of criminals in WA are meth addicts, Morey has links to Meth.

Good stuff elastic. The fact that he tried to rape someone in a cemetery just further illustrates that this guy is a mega dunce

 

[drpath]

The fact that he tried to rape someone in a cemetery just further illustrates that this guy is a mega dunce

The cemetery rape victim was abducted from a different area and taken to the cemetery, a quiet secluded area, where he could commit his crime in private. A fledgling killer's first known attempt. Much research has been done which has shown that serial killers often make mistakes such as the CSK did in the cemetery rape before they perfect their craft.