CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #43

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Which brings me to a question.
There are those who feel 100% that MR is responsible.
I myself am at 80 to 90% . SODDI being the other 10%
There are those who seem to feel MR is not responsible. 0%
For those who feel MR is not responsible or even if you're on the
fence about him , if you remove everything else you know about this
case and only ask yourself this one question, please tell me what you get.
How does a loving father who believes his son is taken by a stranger intentionally
make that child wait ONE MORE DAY because he do not want to take a poly?


eta, sorry i did not make it look like ^^ that on purpose.

I think I'm there with you on the 80-90%. Probably closer to 90. I'm not sure what SODDI stands for so can't say on that 10%. I think for me the other 10% is some freakish series of coincidences that led to Dylan being gone.

What I wish I could get a better handle is exactly what MR's responsible FOR. Even if he isn't directly responsible for Dylan disappearing, I think he's responsible for not supervising Dylan closely enough, and/or for not being more insistent about getting Dylan to get up and ready to go at the time they originally planned. I know he was 13 at the time and kids are getting a lot more independent at that age, but Dylan was in a remote area, no friends close by (IMO 6 miles is pretty far without transportation unless he liked to hike), and potentially not thrilled to be there. Apparently he also had no way to contact anyone. Even if MR's story of the morning's events are true (which I seriously doubt), I still think he was responsible for not being attentive enough to Dylan on the first day of his visit.

What I think is more likely if MR is responsible is that it's something worse than just lax supervision. It makes me wonder did he harm Dylan? Did he plan something in advance, or did he do something in a fit of rage? Was there some kind of accident that he's covering up? Did he pass Dylan off to someone else? (either to hide him, or just to 'get rid of' him somehow).

Ugh. I feel so sad for Dylan right now.
 
...snipped....

What I wish I could get a better handle is exactly what MR's responsible FOR. ...snipped...
I see Mark as responsible for:
Insisting on visitation for the week if Dylan didn't want to go (I think that had been proven, but I am not sure)
Insisting Dylan go with him instead of to his friend's house. Most likely, Dylan would still be here if he had let Dylan go.
Not getting Dylan up in the morning to go to his friend's house, when he knew Dylan wanted to go there. Assuming Dylan was alive at the time, Dylan would probably be here if he had made Dylan get up (assuming that Dylan really didn't want to get up, which I don't actually assume)
Not searching for his son as soon as he got home and found him missing. Might or might not have made any difference.
Not calling (and I mean CALLING, not texting) Dylan's mother when Dylan hadn't been accounted for for 9 hours (from 7:30 to 4:30 since Mark had not seen him during that time, and he had not yet spoken to the mail person)
Not searching for his son at all. (There might be a valid reason, but I haven't seen what it is)

Those are some of the things I see him responsible for. There are more, of course, but those are the ones that got me started wondering. His inability to answer a direct question is the one that keeps me wondering.
 
True . When MR said this is happening too fast, my brain started clicking off the calendar days since Nov 19 and thinking one more day, one more HOUR is too long if you're the victim of a pedophile and no one is looking for you because they think your dad is responsible. If MR believed someone else has his son, why would he want him to wait another day ?

The comments about it happening so fast, and how he kept repeating that he needed time to "process" everything, and "think things through" were huge red flags to me. Stalling for time, trying to figure out a way to try and pass the test.

I honestly think DP not believing him, and at the same time going along with his complaints about how the first polygraph wasn't "fair" due to causing that cloud of suspicion really threw him off his game, and that was why DP tried to get him to take it immediately. It's also why I think DP gave him such a limited shelf-life on his offer of real help - he knew that if MR had time to get out of the situation and think, he may be able to regroup and start again as the calm guy he was at the beginning of the first day of taping.

MOO I think the polygraph drama was the last straw for DP, and I would think it likely DP was pretty convinced of MR's guilt at that point. I wish we could have seen MR's face as some of the questions were being asked of him backstage.

Again, this is all MOO...
 
I can't even imagine having to live with those things, all while having a missing child. It's bad enough to have that happen but it brings the level of inconceiveability up a few notches to have your beloved son missing. I can't even imagine the pain. I would definitely shut down. I would recess so far away from society and in to my own world, I might never come out of it.

This is Seajay's comment that I responded to. You thanked her, so you did see it. I don't know why you would be asking?

So, I guess from your comment, you believe your feelings would be more important than finding your missing child? I don't believe that for one single second and I don't think you do either. As I stated above, you would find out very quickly that you have much, much more strength than you ever thought possible.

Here is my reply because I don't believe she actually would "lock herself away and never come out again", which is essentially saying that thinks her own feelings would take priority over finding her child....and I don't believe that for one minute.

BBM
Did seajay actually say this?

BBM: Responses above. Clear as mud?
 
Apparently my definition is different. Shutting down to me is not communicating with jackwagons who want nothing more than to have my head on a platter.

I don't know what MR is doing. I've never pretended to know what MR is doing. As far as I've heard, he's cooperating with LE and that's enough for me at this time.

With that, I've got tired head and I'm going to bed.

Praying for Dylan and his family.

Good night and sweet dreams to all.

And, don't forget, LE has NOT named anyone as a suspect or a POI.

This apparently includes Mark Redwine.
 
And, don't forget, LE has NOT named anyone as a suspect or a POI.

This apparently includes Mark Redwine.


Which, again, happens more often than not. It certainly doesn't mean they don't have an unnamed suspect any more than it means that just because we haven't found Dylan, a crime hasn't been committed. By someone. Unnamed POI's are still POI's.
 
I would have to do some pretty extensive research on that last sentence...but I also see Elaine when I look at pictures of Dylan, so that may speak for itself.

I know you probably are familiar with most of the following and I can't see after clicking over to post who you were originally responding to, but I just wanted to add that there are no strict rules on what a narcissist will or won't do - especially if that disorder coexists with a much bigger disorder overall.

In my layman's opinion I would classify MR as having Antisocial Personality Disorder(ASPD), which has a huge variety of sub-types, and can coexist with numerous other mental illnesses and personality disorders - one of which is Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).

The following information is from the Wikipedia entry for ASPD which can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_personality_disorder
Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is described by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), as an Axis II personality disorder characterized by "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."[1]

The World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems', tenth edition (ICD-10), defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called (F60.2) Dissocial personality disorder.[2]

Though the diagnostic criteria for ASPD were based in part on Hervey Cleckley's pioneering work on psychopathy, ASPD is not synonymous with psychopathy and the diagnostic criteria are different.[3]

Diagnosis

ICD-10
The World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, tenth edition (ICD-10), defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called (F60.2) Dissocial personality disorder.[4]
It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:
Callous unconcern for the feelings of others;
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations;
Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them;
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence;
Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment;
Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
There may be persistent irritability as an associated feature.
The diagnosis includes what may be referred to as amoral, antisocial, psychopathic, or sociopathic personality (disorder.)
The criteria specifically rule out conduct disorders.[5] Dissocial personality disorder criteria differ from those for antisocial and sociopathic personality disorders.[6]

It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.

DSM-IV-TR
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV-TR), defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

The individual must be at least 18 years of age to be diagnosed with this disorder (Criterion B), but those diagnosed with ASPD as adults were commonly diagnosed with conduct disorder as children. The prevalence of this disorder is 3% in males and 1% in females, as stated in the DSM IV-TR.

Further diagnostic considerations

Psychopathy
Although there are behavioral similarities, ASPD and psychopathy are not synonymous. A diagnosis of ASPD using the DSM criteria is based on behavioral patterns, whereas psychopathy measurements also include more indirect personality characteristics. The diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder covers two to three times as many prisoners as are rated as psychopaths. Most offenders scoring high on the PCL-R also pass the ASPD criteria but most of those with ASPD do not score high on the PCL-R.[3]

Theodore Millon's subtypes
Theodore Millon identified five subtypes of antisocial personality disorder.[7][8] exhibiting all of the following:

covetous antisocial – variant of the pure pattern where individuals feel that life has not given them their due.
reputation-defending antisocial – including narcissistic features
risk-taking antisocial – including histrionic features
nomadic antisocial – including schizoid, avoidant features
malevolent antisocial – including sadistic, paranoid features.

Elsewhere, Millon differentiates ten subtypes (partially overlapping with the above) - covetous, risk-taking, malevolent, tyrannical, malignant, unprincipled, disingenuous, spineless, explosive, and abrasive - but specifically stresses that "the number 10 is by no means special...Taxonomies may be put forward at levels that are more coarse or more fine-grained".[9]

Comorbidity

The following conditions commonly coexist with antisocial personality disorder:[10]

Anxiety disorders
Depressive disorder
Impulse control disorders
Substance-related disorders
Somatization disorder
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
Borderline personality disorder
Histrionic personality disorder
Narcissistic personality disorder
Sadistic personality disorder

When combined with alcoholism, people may show frontal function deficits on neuropsychological tests greater than those associated with each condition.[11]

Much more information is available on the Wiki page especially links to definitions of sub-types and coexisting disorders and illnesses, but this list/explanation might help people to better understand why there are so many behaviors that might overlap, and how truly hard it is to diagnose exactly what is wrong with someone. And how hard it is to rule out behaviors based on typical behavior of those with certain mental illnesses.

Again, I am not a psychiatrist, psychologist, or a social worker. I have personal experience dealing with deeply disturbed individuals through my life, but that's it. As always, all of the above (with the exception of the excerpt from Wikipedia) is MOO :cow:
 
But if they had so much prep time, he had plenty of off-air time to say no.

I feel like I missed something. I saw on the show where Mark is in the car and says something about being whisked across town without warning. Was there something that said that Mark was told before the show that he would be asked to take the poly?
 
I feel like I missed something. I saw on the show where Mark is in the car and says something about being whisked across town without warning. Was there something that said that Mark was told before the show that he would be asked to take the poly?
I'm taking a guess here and thinking that Mark thought he would be taking the poly at the show's backstage area somewhere, not taken to the polygrapher at another location. But that is just my opinion.

Does anyone else think that polygrapher sounds like someone who married several graphs? Is it just me?
 
I feel like I missed something. I saw on the show where Mark is in the car and says something about being whisked across town without warning. Was there something that said that Mark was told before the show that he would be asked to take the poly?

First day - MR was asked to take the poly after 2 hours of taping. He said he wasn't able to take it due to his anxiety (or something like that). Dr. Phil offered to let him get a good night's sleep and take the test the next morning after he was refreshed.

Second day - Ride in limo to office where Tremarco (sp?) went through the base line questions and MR appeared to be hung over. He admitted drinking a half bottle of Jim Beam the night prior and only getting 3 hours sleep.
Second show was taped while MR remained in the back room. He apparently changed clothes and cleaned up. Dr. Phil and Tremarco joined him after the taping and talked to him about why he didn't want to take the test and offered it a third time. He declined once again due to not feeling well.
 
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If you can't stop your sarcastic and/or personal remarks then please step away from the computer and give yourself a break.

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OK, I have a question: If MR is such a liar, why would he tell DP that he drank Jim Beam the night before the poly? Couldn't he have made up food poisoning, severe headache, the flu for not taking the poly? It just doesn't make sense to me why MR would say something so off the charts, which was the truth... Or so he claimed. MOO, MOO.
 
On DP, day 2, when asked directly in the presence of DP and Mr. T if he had anything to do with DR's disappearance, he said 'no', but nodded his head yes.
 
OK, I have a question: If MR is such a liar, why would he tell DP that he drank Jim Beam the night before the poly? Couldn't he have made up food poisoning, severe headache, the flu for not taking the poly? It just doesn't make sense to me why MR would say something so off the charts, which was the truth... Or so he claimed. MOO, MOO.

I think he was aware that intoxicants are not exactly helpful, in the process, as well as enabling him to passing off the need to drink from the stress of the situation. JMO of course.

Anyway, not taking it is the least of it, for me. It was the whole charade.
 
OK, I have a question: If MR is such a liar, why would he tell DP that he drank Jim Beam the night before the poly? Couldn't he have made up food poisoning, severe headache, the flu for not taking the poly? It just doesn't make sense to me why MR would say something so off the charts, which was the truth... Or so he claimed. MOO, MOO.

He may have gotten drunk on purpose, to avoid the test. He may have known it would disqualify him.
 
I'm amazed that people would go through so many years of training to become a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist when all that's necessary to diagnosis someone is a video or two and a few web pages. They must be more accurate than the training given to the professionals since none would even consider diagnosing someone they had never met, but we do it all the time here. Of course, we haven't all come up with the same diagnosis, and if we're all right, I sure hope he gets some help soon! MOO :rocker:

FTR - I'm not criticizing anybody for this, because I do it myself at times.

Which is exactly why I said the following under the quoted section - and included the quoted section to begin with as well:

"but this list/explanation might help people to better understand why there are so many behaviors that might overlap, and how truly hard it is to diagnose exactly what is wrong with someone. And how hard it is to rule out behaviors based on typical behavior of those with certain mental illnesses." (BBM)

I don't know... maybe I'm just tired, but the first part of your post coming directly after my post, with the sarcastic tone doesn't exactly fit in with the last comment you made.

It certainly does feel like criticism... I clearly stated that it was a layman's opinion, but that doesn't mean I'm absolutely uninformed on the issues of mental illness.

I am also well-aware that a psychologist/psychiatrist/social worker would not diagnose someone without interviewing them personally, giving them assessment tests, etc...

I'm not going to argue any further, but if you truly weren't trying to criticize someone, please remember sarcasm is very hard to convey through printed media. Thanks... :)
 
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