CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #44

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I thnk the high altitude is also a problem diving there, not just cold. Something about pressure and the bends....

http://www.altitude.org/high_altitude_diving.php

Oh. Thanks. That makes sense. I wasn't thinking about it being so high up, more about getting in the water and it being warm. Too bad the heated wetsuits don't work, it could sure do a lot for this case if they did.
 
So the divers were able to go about 40 feet deep. I wonder how deep it is in the area's they were searching?
 
Just something that has been bugging me for awhile, and the discussion lately has brought it to my mind again, so I feel the need to say it.

Several different dogs have alerted at different times on the lake. It just makes sense to me that there has to be someone in there. If it isn't Dylan, it is someone else... Someone else's child, spouse, parent, sibling, friend. Someone who deserves to be found, whose family also deserves some closure. I sincerely hope that LE is taking this seriously, and that this person, whether Dylan or not, will be recovered.

If I were Dylan's family, I would be hiring divers as well.
 
It's 167 feet at the dam and divers were able to go down a fraction of the way (40 ft) with something like 7-8 feet visibility? Perhaps that's the reason LE called it off and won't go back?
 
How deep can those sonar cameras see things?


Posted by FMDR on March 3rd-
"We began researching and contacting professionals that can help us search the lake. We have contacted many people and organization and have chosen a team we believe possess the knowledge of not only water and recovery, but the latest in technological equipment. From high tech sonar to ROV's we believe this team is the best and are making plans to get them here as soon as the ice melts enough to get a boat on the water. We feel that this step is necessary and if nothing else we might be able to provide closure for another family."

I am not surprised that they have not thus far shared the name of the organization they are bringing in to help search the lake. K-9 Forensics endured some discrediting, harassment and general strife in their efforts to do good. I hope FMDR is able to keep info about the hired searchers as quiet as they need in order to be effective. Sounds like they are thinking outside of the box with technology/ROVs which is a good thing!
 
Posted by FMDR on March 3rd-
"We began researching and contacting professionals that can help us search the lake. We have contacted many people and organization and have chosen a team we believe possess the knowledge of not only water and recovery, but the latest in technological equipment. From high tech sonar to ROV's we believe this team is the best and are making plans to get them here as soon as the ice melts enough to get a boat on the water. We feel that this step is necessary and if nothing else we might be able to provide closure for another family."

I am not surprised that they have not thus far shared the name of the organization they are bringing in to help search the lake. K-9 Forensics endured some discrediting, harassment and general strife in their efforts to do good. I hope FMDR is able to keep info about the hired searchers as quiet as they need in order to be effective. Sounds like they are thinking outside of the box with technology/ROVs which is a good thing!


Well now that I see how deep that lake is at the dam I can see what kind of challenges they are facing. This is not as simple as sending in some divers. Not unless the area where the dogs hit is closer to shore in a shallower area?
 
I think LE thought it was easier to just wait it out and hope that a body might eventually float with warmer temps. Wow...
 
Thinking back to Laci Peterson, it is alleged that her monster of a husband weighed her body down with concrete before pushing her into the bay in December 2002. Her body surfaced at some point and was found in April 2003 I guess there are many factors at work here in terms of whether a body would remain deep within water -- such as if it was trapped between rocks or otherwise caught on something. Is it possible that these dogs can pick up the scent of someone who died at that location but whose body is no longer there? Did the dogs only pick up the scent at the lake? Were they taken by any chance to search the various roads that WS members here have wondered about?
 
Well now that I see how deep that lake is at the dam I can see what kind of challenges they are facing. This is not as simple as sending in some divers. Not unless the area where the dogs hit is closer to shore in a shallower area?

Question probably best for SarX: would a dog be able to scent someone that far down? Gases rising maybe?
 
Well now that I see how deep that lake is at the dam I can see what kind of challenges they are facing. This is not as simple as sending in some divers. Not unless the area where the dogs hit is closer to shore in a shallower area?

Even then, unless a body was weighted down and sunk straight in, it may have moved from the original location (perhaps even weighted it would naturally move towards the dam area). I am not familiar with the Lake, and the dam itself in regard to when they open it, how it opens, and if there is flowage year-round out of the dam itself.

I just hope the Spring thaw doesn't come really quickly to where they don't have to open the dam fully in an emergency or something -- as I said, I'm not familiar with this particular dam, the lake/reservoir, or normal seasonal procedures at all... Just something I'm rather worried about - perhaps needlessly.

All of the above is MOO... as always. :cow:
 
I wonder how the Bureau of Reclamation/Corps of Engineers inspects the dam on the water side?

ETA - the Bureau transferred maintenance and upkeep to Pine River Irrigation District.
 
Even if LE is waiting for spring to resume water searches, or if they have no plans to search again at all, I would be surprised if they would come out and say so. Regardless of reasoning, or even chances of him being there, much of the public might not take it well if they felt LE was possibly leaving the body of a child in the lake longer than necessary.
 
It would be interesting to see what sarx says about whether dogs could catch a scent if a body were 167 feet down. Let's hope that's not the case. Even if ROV's were to find a body that far down how would you get it out?
 
Maybe they are thinking that with all the boating and activities in the summer if a body is stuck it might get dislodged and float? I really hate talking about this but I had no idea how deep it was vs how far down the divers could safely go. This is going to be a real challenge.
 
Maybe they are thinking that with all the boating and activities in the summer if a body is stuck it might get dislodged and float? I really hate talking about this but I had no idea how deep it was vs how far down the divers could safely go. This is going to be a real challenge.

Why cant they use those mini subs that the oceanographers use?
 
Question probably best for SarX: would a dog be able to scent someone that far down? Gases rising maybe?

I was curious as well, and did a quick google search in regard to HRD dogs and how far down they can detect a scent. There are, as you would suspect, many factors involved.

Here are a few links that have some good information:
This is a message board for Scuba Divers - http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-398725.html

The 2nd to last, and the last post before the ad break are interesting. Two posters also state here that 1 - a state police agency said their dog can scent up to 300' in depth, a second said about 200'.

I haven't read this yet, or tried the link, but they do mention a book that is in pdf form that one can download for free that contains a chapter on water searches.

Some of the other posts discuss first-hand experience as divers in working with HRD dogs.
***
The following is a copy of correspondence archived on the sarinfo.bc.ca site and explains more about how a dog finds the scent on water and various things that may affect the search as well.

http://www.sarinfo.bc.ca/Library/Canine/scentwtr.k9
Note: This correspondence is from 1996 and some info. may be outdated due to advances in the field, I am assuming... But, the basics would remain the same.
Subject: Water recoveries
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 13:15:27 -0500
From: Henry Santeford <hssantef@mtu.edu>
To: sar-l-d@islandnet.com

Mike Larish wrote:

>Unfortunately, the "exact point scent is detected surfacing from
> underwater" is often times rather nebulous for a variety of reasons
> including wind direction and speed, water direction and speed, water
> temperature, air temperature and more.
>
>If it is real cold out with little or no wind, the scent often will pool
>along the surface of the water making it difficult to pinpoint the exact
>exit of scent from the water. If the water is moving, especially rapidly,
>it can carry the scent downstream quite a ways from the actual location of
>the subject. If the wind is blowing fairly hard, it will also make it
>difficult for a dog to pinpoint exact exit from the water (insofar as down
>to a few feet). There is also discussion whether or not thermoclines in
>the water have an affect on scent as they do on sound. The K9 itself also
>obviously has a lot to do with accuracy...

It is important to realize that the scent leaving the body under water
behaves just like scent leaving a body on land, i.e. there is a scent cone,
which under the simplest conditions rises straight up to the surface and
forms a circle, the circumference of which is determined by the distance.
In the real world of scent however, that is seldom the case. As Mike
stated, many variables influence the 'circle of scent'.

Water temperature gradient plays a role in the vertical circulation. If the
water is isothermal, there is no circulation. The greater the temperature
gradient in water with temperatures above 4 degrees centigrade, the greater
the circulation. (Less than 4dc involves density issues) Thermoclines seem
to act as a wall to scent penetration - they can be broken up by mechanical
mixing.

The vertical circulation is also dependent on velocity and depth of the
water in addition to the temperature gradient between the air and water.
THis is somewhat simplified by incresed water velocity, which decreases the
influence of the temperature gradients.

I'm not sure what Mike means by "real cold". When we have "real cold" and
no wind with open water, there is alot of veritical circulation due to the
huge temperature gradient produced. It is possible for the frost formed by
water vapor leaving the water surface to reach the tops of trees. With a
lesser gradient, i.e. fog conditions, there is a pooling of scent, not
unlike a scent pool on land. A temperature gradient always produces
circulation.

High wind conditions on large lakes are usually dangerous for divers, but
the wind at the water surface is minimal (watch snow blow across an open
field), so if you can work the dog close to the water, he can usually, if
worked into the wind with a good boat operator (hard to go slow enough and
control a boat in high winds) do the job.

It is important for the search manager to know all of the details so that
he can plot alerts in complicated recoveries. Dog handlers need to
concentrate on where their dog is alerting and be careful not to try to
'out-think their dog'. I am less concerned with having another dog confirm
my dog's alerts than I am with having a knowledgeable person help interpret
what the dog is telling us based on all the variables.

Sally Santeford
D.O.G.S.-north

Hope that is of some help. I know I found it interesting at the least. I also ran across an article that seems to belie the statement by LEOs that dogs are likely to be wrong. Also noted a post on the Scuba board stating that a team had a dog alert, and divers were sent down where they found a bunch of brush and a tree (back in 2011). The temps were getting to them, and they had to call off the search at that time, but the body was likely released by their efforts, and floated up by the next morning...

------------
As always, all of the above except where referenced is MOO. :cow:
 
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