CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #46

[Psychic Sleuth]

Yes, from my understanding a HRD dog would be able to pick up a scent. I have a hard time believing that when the FBI did their search that HRD dogs were not brought in. I would think they have a standard protocol that they follow in all missing child cases, but I could be wrong.

I found a good Q&A thread here on WS's about HRD dogs.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-152258.html

I believe at that time they thought Dylan was a runaway. There would be no need for HRD dogs at that time. (if you are referring to the cursory search that is)

So you understand that HRD dogs could catch a sent in a vehicle or house 10 days after the body had been removed?

 

[Redhead72]

Yes, from my understanding a HRD dog would be able to pick up a scent. I have a hard time believing that when the FBI did their search that HRD dogs were not brought in. I would think they have a standard protocol that they follow in all missing child cases, but I could be wrong.

I found a good Q&A thread here on WS's about HRD dogs.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-152258.html

Forgive me if I'm confusing some things at this point, and please do correct me if I'm wrong!

First, I believe when they wanted something with DR's scent - right after he went missing they were not using HRD dogs at that time. Instead, they were using live scent/tracking dogs which are trained differently.

HRD dogs were probably brought in when they did the search at MR's house with the Search Warrant, however, if DR was alive when last in the house the HRD dogs wouldn't hit on that. They are trained to detect decomposition smells. Even if a person initially died in the home, if they weren't there long enough to start the decomp process, then I don't think the HRD dogs would be able to smell that (but, I will look that up - I think there is a certain amount of time the body needs to be there before the scents would start to show up...).

I guess to sum things up - there are two types of dogs that are used by LE in regard to a person...
1.) the "bloodhound" type search dog that can be given a scent from an article of clothing and use that scent to track movements of a person.

2.) An HRD (Human Remains Detecting) dog that is trained to hit on decomposition scents from human bodies - scents that would not be specific to any person, but are present in all decomposing human bodies.

3.) The scent dogs mentioned in #1 would need the article of clothing that ER reportedly brought to the scene if there was nothing left behind at MR's that carried a clear enough scent for the dogs to track.

4.) If something happened to DR away from the home, then the HRD dogs would not hit on anything inside MR's home. Even if something did happen in the home, unless DR had died, and his body had remained there long enough for the decomp processes to begin, then the HRD dogs wouldn't hit on that, either...

As always, all of the above is MOO! I am not an expert on SAR dogs, but the above is how I understand it works... I could definitely be wrong on some points (especially amount of time for a body to be somewhere before decomp sets in and whether or not an HRD dog can hit on a spot where a "fresh" body laid).

:cow:

 

[rosesfromangels]

I believe Elaine will be bringing in a group with high tech Sonar equipment and ROV's. We read where many bodies where recovered in much deeper lakes than Vallecito this way. i.e. no need for divers at all.

I do believe the reason for the helicopter flyovers over the lake after LE had their divers in there, was they were hoping a body might surface.

But as someone else also explained there is probably lots of timber and other debris in that lake that a body could easily get stuck on.

I'm hoping that if there is a body in there (no matter who it is) that Elaine's group can find it. I can't find any logical explanation for 5 different dogs hitting there if there is no body. I do believe someone is in that lake. I read that this group will be there for many days doing a very thorough search.

Yes. Based on the info you provided, I agree there is sadly, a very high probability a body will be found in that lake. The dam area is very dangerous, and things get pulled under and lodged in or around the turbine or other dam mechanisms underwater.

 

[RANCH]

I believe at that time they thought Dylan was a runaway. There would be no need for HRD dogs at that time. (if you are referring to the cursory search that is)

So you understand that HRD dogs could catch a sent in a vehicle or house 10 days after the body had been removed?

If blood or other bodily fluids from the deceased were left at the house I would say the HR scent would stay there for a very long time. MOO.

 

[Redhead72]

Yes, from my understanding a HRD dog would be able to pick up a scent. I have a hard time believing that when the FBI did their search that HRD dogs were not brought in. I would think they have a standard protocol that they follow in all missing child cases, but I could be wrong.

I found a good Q&A thread here on WS's about HRD dogs.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-152258.html

I have the same understanding as you... Their sense of smell is so keen that they can detect decomp even when people have attempted to clean any and all evidence. However, if something did happen, and DR was technically still alive in the home, or in the truck, or whatever, then the HRD dogs would have nothing to hit on. I'm also going to look up and double-check, but I believe there is a very short period of time after a person dies, and before decomp starts, that wouldn't be able to be picked up by an HRD dog. It's the decomp gases, and chemicals produced by the decomp processes they are trained to pick up.

As always, all of the above are MOO! :cow:
[I'm going to go search on HRD dogs and time after death that the scents start to be a factor that they can identify... Should I be paranoid to google this stuff? LOL]

 

[RANCH]

This is a post from one of our dog experts Oriah where she talks about an HRD dog alerting at a residence after she bled there and cleaned it up.

Possibly. It would largely depend on what kind of surface the blood was deposited on.

For example, I too had an injury in the past year that produced a lot of blood inside a residence. Actually it was a trail from outside to inside, which may help explain even further.

In my situation; there was blood deposited on grass, then on dirt, then on cement, then on sealed hardwood floors, then on tile, then on a towel, then on stainless steel.

We cleaned everything up, of course- but certain surfaces retain HR scent particles (such as blood) much longer than others. The concrete, for example. Scrubbed it with bleach and can't see a thing. But one of our HRD dogs will still hit on it if we put him to work.

The tile? Scrubbed that too- but the grout retains the scent. He'll hit on that also. The sealed hardwood floors- no. The towel we threw away, so I've no idea, lol. If we hadn't thrown it away, I guarantee he'd be hitting on that. The stainless steel- no. But that's because it is a sink, and not a sealed stainless steel container.

Does that make any sense?

BBM

Even after scrubbing with bleach the HRD dog would alert to the blood that was left on the concrete. That shows how sensitive these dogs are to the scents they are trained on.

 

[Seajay]

I don't think the downloading of vacation pics would be via wi-fi - more likely a USB connection direct from the camera to the computer. When my daughters download pictures from their camera they all go into the same folder under the name of the camera, and then each download is separated into folders by date. (That would explain how the kids had access in re: to other things likely in the same place on the computer.)

You are right, I don't need wi-fi to upload pictures to my computer from my camera, I use a USB plug and port. Straight from camera to computer.

 

[Redhead72]

Here's a reference link for info. about dogs scenting a "fresh" body. Please note however, that the cadaver they used had already started the decomp process even though it was in it's early stages - they state the cadaver donor had passed "less than 3 hours before", but there is no precise time attached to the study report. (I ran across this study before and linked to other portions of it back when people were dismissing the hits at the lake in a previous thread here).

The CSI death dogs: Sniffing out the truth behind the crime-scene canines
No one knows how they do it, but they are the police's secret weapon
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

EXCERPT:
One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.

Read more at the link above...

I'm still researching a bit, but I wanted to share a bit of personal experience on this...
When my Mom passed away I was on my way to her nursing home. I arrived within minutes of her passing (about 15 mins. or so). I asked if I could see her and say my goodbyes, and I was allowed to do that. When I approached her bed you wouldn't have been able to tell that she was truly no longer living at that point. Her face and lips, and fingertips still had color, and she was still warm (within a normal range, her hands not even chilly). The only thing that was "missing" was her heartbeat, and breathing (as I discovered when I collapsed crying on her chest and held her for a few moments - that may sound weird to some, but it was actually *good* in a way as I had no doubt she was gone from us then...). I don't say this to be shocking, but to explain that right after death - within 15 minutes, and certainly less than half an hour the typical signs that someone is deceased are not present yet.

They were certainly starting, but not noticeable to a human being for sure -- she didn't have a "scent of death" on her yet as I've heard referenced. I know dogs' noses are hundreds of millions of times more sensitive than ours, but there has to be some time elapsed before the decomp scents begin. Some organs technically continue to *work* even for some time after death - as is attested to in the excerpt above where they state that even with just under 3 hours time passed there are still some organs that continue to function without the presence of blood flow or oxygen.

Still doing some research as this is somewhat interesting to me personally...

O/T - I wish I was emotionally able to handle true police work, or that I had discovered my interest in these types of investigative things a long time ago...

 

[Redhead72]

This is a post from one of our dog experts Oriah where she talks about an HRD dog alerting at a residence after she bled there and cleaned it up.



BBM

Even after scrubbing with bleach the HRD dog would alert to the blood that was left on the concrete. That shows how sensitive these dogs are to the scents they are trained on.

They are truly amazing creatures, are they not? (We have a 1yo GSD who is so incredibly smart - and I thought our Lab was intelligent; which he really was... lol)

If a person died due to a closed wound (no bleeding), or through other means though - like strangulation/suffocation, or poisoning even - would the HRD dogs be able to pick up a scent though? Obviously, blood would be fairly easy to scent - even after cleaning as evidenced by what you posted above.

 

[Lordeebee]

A couple of questions if anyone has any answers or ideas:

If Dylan's remains were found in the lake at this point (or in the near future), would it be possible for LE to find evidence of a struggle, i.e. bruises, ligature marks, another person's DNA, etc. or would the body be too badly decomposed?

Is there any possible reason that LE would purposefully leave a crime victim's body in the lake for a longer time even if they knew they could have already retrieved it? Has this ever happened?

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

I have the same understanding as you... Their sense of smell is so keen that they can detect decomp even when people have attempted to clean any and all evidence. However, if something did happen, and DR was technically still alive in the home, or in the truck, or whatever, then the HRD dogs would have nothing to hit on. I'm also going to look up and double-check, but I believe there is a very short period of time after a person dies, and before decomp starts, that wouldn't be able to be picked up by an HRD dog. It's the decomp gases, and chemicals produced by the decomp processes they are trained to pick up.

As always, all of the above are MOO! :cow:
[I'm going to go search on HRD dogs and time after death that the scents start to be a factor that they can identify... Should I be paranoid to google this stuff? LOL]

LOL ONLY if you plan on killing someone in the near future?

 

[Emma Ems]

I wonder if it's possible that the cursory search turned up nothing but the extensive search did. The only way we know that Dylan's phone is missing is through MR's statement. Elaine would have no idea other than MR's word. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Samsung phone they took was indeed Dylan's? Perhaps it was MR's but I believe MR specifically said they took HIS iPod and A Samsung phone. Not HIS Samsung phone but A Samsung phone. I could be wrong on that but that's how I thought I heard it. Was that discussed on DP?

What is the brand of phone that comes in the little Tracphone starter bundle? Not sure if it matters or not but was thinking maybe the Samsung they found could have been a burner?

 

[Redhead72]

I just did some quick research on the dangers associated with dams, especially lowhead dams. Starteling findings! Google it. Based on what I just read and the dogs alerting at the dam, this would be a very very strong possibility imo. Apparently these dams are death traps.

I can attest to that. We've had numerous deaths in the years I've lived here in regard to people thinking they can swim in the "still waters" above the damn on the WI river.

The most recent case I remember is 3 friends, one had been drinking and decided he'd dive in off of one of the bridges. He got into trouble, and his other friend (who was ex-military with advanced water rescue skills) jumped in to save him, and they were both drowned. They were both found stuck up against pillars by the dam, iirc.

The surface of the water at that point is so deceptive... It's totally calm and appears like a rather deep still-water lake. However, just a few feet down the undertow from the dam is similar to a rip current (rip tide) for those familiar with oceans. There are signs posted everywhere, but people being people still decide they can somehow defy physics... It's quite sad.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

A couple of questions if anyone has any answers or ideas:

If Dylan's remains were found in the lake at this point (or in the near future), would it be possible for LE to find evidence of a struggle, i.e. bruises, ligature marks, another person's DNA, etc. or would the body be too badly decomposed?

Is there any possible reason that LE would purposefully leave a crime victim's body in the lake for a longer time even if they knew they could have already retrieved it? Has this ever happened?

I forget how soon after he was missing that they searched the lake, but it was pretty early on IIRC. It was very dangerous for the divers. I really feel like they decided it would be best to give it more time (for the gasses to take over the body) and hoped that if he was in there he would eventually float. I believe this is the reason for the helicopter flyovers for a couple of weeks afterwards. Then winter came and the lake froze.

 

[RANCH]

They are truly amazing creatures, are they not? (We have a 1yo GSD who is so incredibly smart - and I thought our Lab was intelligent; which he really was... lol)

If a person died due to a closed wound (no bleeding), or through other means though - like strangulation/suffocation, or poisoning even - would the HRD dogs be able to pick up a scent though? Obviously, blood would be fairly easy to scent - even after cleaning as evidenced by what you posted above.

I'm not an expert but I think that it depends on a lot of factors. The environmental conditions, how long the body stayed in one place and the surface the body was on can effect the HR scent that the dogs alert to.

Also it can depend on the training that the dogs undergo. The kind of training materials that are used will make a difference in what the HRD dog will alert to. MOO.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

What is the brand of phone that comes in the little Tracphone starter bundle? Not sure if it matters or not but was thinking maybe the Samsung they found could have been a burner?

If that's all it was why would LE take it?

 

[Redhead72]

LOL ONLY if you plan on killing someone in the near future?

Ah, that would be a negative! LOL

 

[Redhead72]

What is the brand of phone that comes in the little Tracphone starter bundle? Not sure if it matters or not but was thinking maybe the Samsung they found could have been a burner?

There are actually several different models and brands that Tracphone uses. We have a Motorola we've had now for about 5 years (and still works really well... *knock on wood*). We got LE models for 2 of our daughters. I know there is at least one more brand sold in the stores around here, but can't remember off-hand what it is, and there's a chance that different models or brands are sold in different states.

There are also more providers than just Tracphone who provide pre-paid or "throw-away" cell phones/service. IIRC one in Colorado is "Cricket". [Again, we use them because of the ease of budgeting, frankly...]

 

[Redhead72]

A couple of questions if anyone has any answers or ideas:

If Dylan's remains were found in the lake at this point (or in the near future), would it be possible for LE to find evidence of a struggle, i.e. bruises, ligature marks, another person's DNA, etc. or would the body be too badly decomposed?

Is there any possible reason that LE would purposefully leave a crime victim's body in the lake for a longer time even if they knew they could have already retrieved it? Has this ever happened?

All of this is from a purely layman's viewpoint, and as such should be considered "educated guesses", but definitely not facts...

As to the first question: I think it would depend upon the amount of decomposition of said remains. The temperature of the water has an incredible affect on remains and can slow the process down quite a bit. The water temp in November was only 38 degrees at the time DR disappeared, and I can only assume that for the last 4 months it's been considerably colder. I don't know what the temps would be like at the deeper parts of the lake itself - whether it would be colder, or perhaps remain a bit warmer than closer to the surface. The lake wouldn't freeze completely obviously, and water would continue to flow somewhat unless the dam is completely closed in the winter (that is something I don't know about specifically).

As for signs of a struggle - if there was damage to the bones then I would think definitely a yes (there is always talk about the hyoid bone being broken in cases of strangulation for instance - a "tell-tale" sign that would be present even if only skeletal remains were left). Deep bruising, or head trauma and such would leave lasting marks on the skeleton as well. Same with marks on the bones if a weapon was used. As for things further than that, I would be in way over my head in regard to forensics - especially what can be recovered from a body that had remained submerged, but perhaps still had some tissues remaining.

In regard to your second question - I don't think LE would ever purposefully leave a body anywhere for a longer period of time than possible. There really were some extremely dangerous conditions in the lake for divers back in November. Besides the cold, the altitude plus the depth made it impossible for the divers to be under water for more than 20 minutes, plus each diver could only go under once per day. They could only dive to a certain depth, and visibility was really bad as well. There simply was no chance at recovery given all of those factors at the time - even if LE were pretty much positive that DR's remains were there.

I have a feeling that perhaps LE's insurance, and risk assessment agencies and such may have decided that they can't afford the risk to send other divers down - maybe not even in the Springtime. Which may be why DR's family has needed to raise money and hire a professional search team willing to take on the risks associated. However, again, that is a GUESS, and it's based on complete speculation. I cannot fault LE for not continuing the dives back in Nov./Dec.. The risk to their lives was simply far too great.

As always, all of the above is MOO! :cow:

 

[RANCH]

A couple of questions if anyone has any answers or ideas:

If Dylan's remains were found in the lake at this point (or in the near future), would it be possible for LE to find evidence of a struggle, i.e. bruises, ligature marks, another person's DNA, etc. or would the body be too badly decomposed?

Is there any possible reason that LE would purposefully leave a crime victim's body in the lake for a longer time even if they knew they could have already retrieved it? Has this ever happened?

I'm not sure what an autopsy could show at this point of time if the body was in a frozen over lake.

My only experience was with the murder of my employers son. The coroner was able to tell that he was choked unconscious and then thrown into the Sacramento river where he then drowned.

The body was in the river for six weeks in January/February but I'm not sure of the water temperature. It doesn't get below freezing around here much if at all.

I would assume that the very cold temperatures of that lake would preserve any remains for quite a while. MOO.