CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #50

[RANCH]

Sarx said the same thing, basically. But is seems a shame if dogs from entirely different sources were all poorly trained.

Sarx asked the same question? I must have missed that. I think that the dogs training may not be a big issue, but their human handlers training may be. MOO.

 

[cluciano63]

Sarx asked the same question? I must have missed that. I think that the dogs training may not be a big issue, but their human handlers training may be. MOO.

Well she said it was all about training, which varies widely and makes it impossible to answer yes or no to so many of our questions.

 

[SCHMAE]

Mark Redwine:
Well, we were watching the movie together. I remember the movie being finished. I at some point was pacing the floor and got up and was taking care of a few little things you know over here at the kitchen table while we were doing that but, you know, it was – Shortly after the ending of that movie, which my guess, and I don’t recall because I don’t keep track of the clock… you know…it must have been… I thought it was earlier in the beginning…’cos I was fairly tired anyway, and I know Dylan was tired because he indicated to me that because he had been up ‘till 4:00 the night before and that he had spent most of the day in the airport traveling to get here that he was tired, and, you know, it seems to me it had to been about 10:30’ish maybe by the time the movie got done… somewhere in there and, you know, shortly after that I ran up and went to bed and he finished up doin’ whatever he was doin’ watching Nickelodeon or whatever he was watching.
TxJan Transcript

So much earlier I thought that MR saying the tv was on nickelodeon was a sort of ' proof that Dylan was ok that morning' ......... cereal bowl in sink, tv on nick, etc. I do not remember at that time knowing Dylan had been watching nick that night. So the tv very well may have been left on all night from 10:30 until MR comes home at 11:30 am and that does not mean anyone was ' watching it', only that is what channel it was left on.
Sorry if that' s been covered, just caught my eye this morning.

 

[Oriah]

Oriah, will you please answer the above? TIA!!

Short answer, yes. It is also possible that remains could become disarticulated by animal activity and end up in different locations, including water.

 

[Oriah]

Why is it important to know the substrate of the lake? That could be mud,sand,granule,pebble,cobble or boulder.

Couldn't a man made reservoir have all of those materials in different areas as it's bottom? The only thing that should cause a problem for a sonar search is boulders. We haven't heard about boulders at this point so I don't think that they have been a problem. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question about the lakes substrate.

Your asking about the HRD dogs certification is not hard to understand. I think that the training of the dogs and their handlers is the key to why we have HRD dog alerts at the lake but with no human remains having been found.

Substrate (marine biology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was asking about the substrate, due to a recovery effort we once had involving a manmade lake with a dam. The individual had been washed down quite a distance when the dam was opened (on routine schedule) and gone from one substrate- concrete/stones/rock/etc- to another- red mud- where he was eventually found. There were close to 5 feet of mud covering him at the lower location.

 

[Oriah]

Sarx said the same thing, basically. But is seems a shame if dogs from entirely different sources were all poorly trained.

Not saying this is necessarily the case here, since I don't know enough about the training of the teams- but it does remain a possibility that either K9's or handlers were not well equiped for the specific searches for Dylan at the time.

 

[Cherry]

I would really like to see Tim Miller and Team take up this case and do a search.

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

Generally, when I lose something and go back and back and back to the same area, that is where I eventually find it. Under something I didn't pick up or wedged somewhere. I've held the opinion that Dylan is not in the lake. But the fact that so many go back to the lake: people here, LE, Dylan's family, makes me worry that they are probably right and that is where he will be found some day. Which of course eliminates that faint hope I still harbor that he is being hidden.
_______

 

[rebeccaeee]

What is the substrate of the lake made up of?
And of the 6 HRD K9's which were certified by whom?

Substrate is clay and pebble/cobblefill raked in place during the construction of the Reservoir. Larger rocks were used as riprap on the sides of the dam, smaller ones were raked and placed on the bottom.

No doubt the dogs from K-9 Forensics have been called into question but at least one of the dogs on the water from the dogs from La Plata SAR were trained by an outfit in Montana, if I recall, with plenty of national certifications. Can't find the name just now but that would be two dogs and two handlers from two different, certified trainers.

Thank you so much for the info!

 

[rebeccaeee]

I would really like to see Tim Miller and Team take up this case and do a search.

It is my understanding that LE did not want this group back in December. I wonder if they would feel differently now?

 

[rebeccaeee]

Generally, when I lose something and go back and back and back to the same area, that is where I eventually find it. Under something I didn't pick up or wedged somewhere. I've held the opinion that Dylan is not in the lake. But the fact that so many go back to the lake: people here, LE, Dylan's family, makes me worry that they are probably right and that is where he will be found some day. Which of course eliminates that faint hope I still harbor that he is being hidden.
_______

I've been wavering about the lake lately. Everyone has been focused there...me based on the dog hits and nothing more (figured the fishing pole either was/wasn't his and if so, was definitely placed there to mislead). I never thought Dylan being hidden was an option but I am starting to wonder if he is out there in the wilderness somewhere. Hoping hikers, hunters, ATVers, fishermen, walkers and wilderness buffs all over the four corners area are keeping their eyes open this season.

 

[KateNY]

I was asking about the substrate, due to a recovery effort we once had involving a manmade lake with a dam. The individual had been washed down quite a distance when the dam was opened (on routine schedule) and gone from one substrate- concrete/stones/rock/etc- to another- red mud- where he was eventually found. There were close to 5 feet of mud covering him at the lower location.

Oriah, thanks for stopping in and answering questions.

RE the person found under 5' of mud. How was he found under all that mud?

Is sonar useful in situation such as that?




as fyi, re the recent lake search for Dylan, some comments from Gene Ralston who used 'high-tech' sonar

'There's always a chance that he is there and that we missed him, ' Ralston said.

The areas searched were along the dam and outlet and near a stump where human remains were detected by dogs.

The lake, he said, was not particularly difficult to search.

'The bottom is really clean, except for the occasional stump and woody debris. For the most part, it is very clean, ' Ralston said.

Full article here
http://gazette.com/lake-search-yields-no-clues-to-missing-monument-boy/article/1500114

 

[The Cheese]

Links for side scan sonar used in both the November search by the state police dive team, and the recent search by the sonar team brought in by Elaine (Gene Ralston):

November - state police dive team. Jennie is the dive team Commander.

Jennie Pierce, Commander, New Mexico State Police Dive Team
transcribed from video

We feel pretty confident that we've covered the area that we've been asked to cover by physically diving it and by using the side-scan sonar

http://www.9news.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=1990769785001

Recent - Gene Ralston

Very long article. More than can be posted here. Please see more at the link.

It was a follow-up to several days of sonar and cadaver dog searches organized by the Hope for Dylan Redwine organization.

snipped

The latest search used a technology called side scan sonar as well as cadaver search dogs.

Hess said a recognized expert in side scan sonar, Gene Ralston, contacted her on Facebook the same day that others recommended that she contact him.

(snipped for space)

http://www.pinerivertimes.com/news.asp?artid=1162

 

[Money Girl]

My thoughts are still the same about Dylan's disappearance: abduction by SO or RSO (with Deputy Sutter being at top of my list); runaway; abduction by a stranger other than SO or RSO; injured while out exploring by himself or with a friend/acquaintance.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Generally, when I lose something and go back and back and back to the same area, that is where I eventually find it. Under something I didn't pick up or wedged somewhere. I've held the opinion that Dylan is not in the lake. But the fact that so many go back to the lake: people here, LE, Dylan's family, makes me worry that they are probably right and that is where he will be found some day. Which of course eliminates that faint hope I still harbor that he is being hidden.
_______

Yes, as long as earthly remains haven't been recovered we cling to that shred of hope. I pray for this child every day, and check faithfully for that miracle. Everytime I pull up the Websleuth's home page I just have that second of hope that I'm going to see "found safe!!!!" with his smiling face beaming at us.

Regarding the lake search. From what I have read about that dam, it is very dangerous and essentially like a powerful drain that pulls things to it. I hope that it has been possible to check that specific area, the "gates", and mechanisms thoroughly? Horrid thought, but a strong possibility based on what I understood from my readings.

I really hate even bringing thoughts like that up. We are talking about a dear little boy and it's just hard to even consider. Dylan, please come home!
Prayers....

 

[Money Girl]

Yes, as long as earthly remains haven't been recovered we cling to that shred of hope. I pray for this child every day, and check faithfully for that miracle. Everytime I pull up the Websleuth's home page I just have that second of hope that I'm going to see "found safe!!!!" with his smiling face beaming at us.

Regarding the lake search. From what I have read about that dam, it is very dangerous and essentially like a powerful drain that pulls things to it. I hope that it has been possible to check that specific area, the "gates", and mechanisms thoroughly? Horrid thought, but a strong possibility based on what I understood from my readings.

I really hate even bringing thoughts like that up. We are talking about a dear little boy and it's just hard to even consider. Dylan, please come home!
Prayers....

It sounds like they made a thorough search of the dam from the following article:

http://www.pinerivertimes.com/news.asp?artid=1162

 

[Ghostwheel]

It sounds like they made a thorough search of the dam from the following article:

http://www.pinerivertimes.com/news.asp?artid=1162

It looks like they did a thorough search of the areas the dogs hit on, not the whole lake. From the link:

"Last Saturday the sonar team was able to spend most of the day on the lake scanning the lake bottom in the areas that the canine team indicated"

"Sunday the team was able to get on the water fairly early and spent a large portion of the day scanning near the dam."

"Also on Sunday, law enforcement brought a helicopter from San Juan County, N.M. that flew low over the lake for about an hour."

People in a helicopter can see perfectly more than 80 feet down? Why couldn't divers, then? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Money Girl]

It looks like they did a thorough search of the areas the dogs hit on, not the whole lake. From the link:

"Last Saturday the sonar team was able to spend most of the day on the lake scanning the lake bottom in the areas that the canine team indicated"

"Sunday the team was able to get on the water fairly early and spent a large portion of the day scanning near the dam."

"Also on Sunday, law enforcement brought a helicopter from San Juan County, N.M. that flew low over the lake for about an hour."

People in a helicopter can see perfectly more than 80 feet down? Why couldn't divers, then? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I thought the rest of the lake had been ruled out in previous searches last fall. Will see if I can find any MSM links.

 

[azgrandma]

I have something to add in regards to the phone dying. When you are in an area where your phone is constantly trying to search for signal it drains the battery quicker than even you using it to talk or text on. If it were to go dead then no amount of sending messages to it will help you find it, you better hope you can find it on your own. Now the bad thing, what happens if you walked outside with both your phone and your ipod, let's say to text and listen to your ipod while doing it. Let's say you put your phone in your pocket and somehow it falls out. Your dad is in bed, and you don't have access to his phone. How would you find your phone? You couldn't use the ipod to text it because it would have to be close to the wifi signal source. You can't use the landline to call it because you would need to be outside to find it. So your only option is to retrace where you walked the night before when daylight comes. So, if your phone is dead, you were suppose to be at your friend's house at 6:30 am, you dropped your phone somewhere outside, what would you do? Would you grab your bag(that you may not have unpacked due to getting in late-ish the night before) head out and look for your phone along the way, IF you were too impatient to wait for your dad to get back and give you a lift? We don't really know what Dylan may have done after Mark went to bed that night either.

Mark said when he went to bed Dylan was still texting right? Some people don't look at a clock when they go to bed, they just go, especially if they are tired. They can guesstimate the time they went to bed, maybe around 10 oclock. If Dylan was still texting when Mark went to bed, that would seem to imply Mark went to bed earlier than what he said, or you can choose to believe it's because he lied about what time he went to bed.

Then again, we know LE has verified that Dylan made it to the house. The phone pings and return texts would NOT necessarily show that Dylan made it to the house that night. However, what if there was a text from another friend after Mark went to bed where one said they were going to stop by, meet outside. Something like that, and that friend saw Dylan at the house? Then Mark claims to have seen him the next morning. Perhaps the friend was able to verify that Mark was in bed at the time he stopped by? We really don't know how they verified he was arrived at the house, just that they did. Would they take phone pings and texts as absolute proof?

BBM - I would really wonder about about a couple of things in regards to this.
1) what kind of father would NOT admit after 5 1/2 months that he lied that he spoke with his missing son in the morning? Pride is one thing, but my Gosh this is your child! If you (in general) lied about trying to wake your son up in the morning, why!? Wouldn't you (in general) just come clean about it rather than mislead the nation?
2) Wouldn't LE indicate that there is a witness? They may, they may not. But IMO, someone seeing that MR was asleep the Sunday evening and either seeing or not seeing Dylan Sunday evening is a HUGE factor. That changes the entire timeline.
3) IMO, LE is not going to compromise an entire investigation by NOT disclosing the time of disappearance if it can be narrowed down. They would IMO state clearly, something such as, "We have a witness that has come forward, this witness has verified that Mark was in the residence at 10:30 pm on Sunday evening and Dylan was not present"
Unless the implication is that "another friend" is involved in Dylan's disappearance and nobody has noticed that this person is missing along with Dylan.
I'm also certain that IF there was a call to Dylan's phone after MR went to bed, the phone records would indicate so. I know that there has been discussion on how quickly various phone companies record calls on the online version of phone records, Dylan IIRC has a verizon phone, which from my experience, shows immediate accounting of calls incoming/outgoing as well as sms incoming/outgoing. LE would have had ample time to determine any incoming/outgoing calls by now.

 

[azgrandma]

I was asking about the substrate, due to a recovery effort we once had involving a manmade lake with a dam. The individual had been washed down quite a distance when the dam was opened (on routine schedule) and gone from one substrate- concrete/stones/rock/etc- to another- red mud- where he was eventually found. There were close to 5 feet of mud covering him at the lower location.

This gives me hope. Sad, but it gives me hope.