CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #52

[Emma Ems]

1st BBM - I believe that you are mixing terms, IMO, there is no such thing as primary arrangements with respect to custody. Perhaps temporary arrangements or preliminary arrangements?

When a person files for divorce w/children, the temporary orders establish which parent has physical custody (meaning which residence will be the child's physical residence) they also determine custody of the child, joint or sole (meaning which parent(s) make the decisions about school, church, medical care) then they determine visitation (even if you have joint custody, visitation has to be determined, is Johnny going to be with mom Sunday through Saturday then goes with dad from Sunday through Saturday, whatever the arrangements and at this time if the parents can't agree the judge will decide) Again, those are TEMPORARY orders until the final dissolution is granted.

I can't imagine it taking several years for visitation or custody or residence to be agreed upon and become permanent. However, having experienced numerous court hearings with one of the parties involved, I can see it happening easily.

IIRC in the Denver Post article about the under the window indiscretion incident, the reporter mentioned that they had been separated or divorced and that was in 2005. By 11/18/2012 custody and visitation had long been established, the only reason that it was changed IMO is because of EH’s move for a better life for her & Dylan. Proximity to each other made joint custody a challenge and visitation would have to be explored with consideration to travel, school & work.

2nd BBM – I really wonder about the use of “primary attachment with a parent” that IMO discredits all parents and their unique bonding with their children, sort of like I’m first, pick me, pick me. IMO children develop relationships with their parents not based on who changed the most diapers. In this case and as you mentioned in your post, we (in general) don’t know how long MR was a stay at home dad, nor do we (in general) know what age Dylan was during this adventure of daddy daycare. EH mentioned in DP and it was not disputed or corrected by MR (he in fact has made similar references) that for a few years prior to Dylan’s disappearance, MR’s visitation was sporadic due to his employment. Sporadic, IMO does not mean that Dylan saw both MR & EH equally.

3rd BBM – do you have a link where the roles were reversed from early in life? You, yourself, mentioned that it is unknown at what age and for what duration, MR cared for Dylan. We (in general) don’t know if “roles may have been reversed” for a week, a month, a year or how long.

For your first BBM comment: In this instance specific to the case, it seems(taking into account all the various compilation of articles) that there was either no custody arrangements in place or some kind of flexible joint custody arrangement due to MR's work schedule. In the appearance of what has been presented for what came after the move is that as far as HOW long Dylan spent with ER, he primarily lived with her most likely due, as I said, to MR being out of town a lot for work. IMO I do not think that the courts would have allowed Dylan to live primarily with MR with him being out of town as much as he was. In the beginning there may not have even been a dispute with MR over the arrangements while Dylan lived in Bayfield as it worked best for everyone involved. I do believe things were complicated by the move to CS. Again if Dylan HAD wanted to stay in Bayfield with his father, how would that have worked out with MR being so frequently out of town? Regardless of how a court words the type of custody arrangement there is still one parent the child lives primarily with. (That is my opinion because even though an order may say "joint" it isn't exactly "equal.")

Your second BBM you will have to take up with child psychologists as that is in their studies and all I have done is point that out. I also noted that we didn't know and a lot was dependent on the facts you mentioned. Like when did ER got back to work after giving birth to Dylan and how long did Dylan stay home with MR, as it's said the bond is developed during the first 6 years of life and is dependent on who takes care of the child's need, who is there to doctor the booboos, to hold them when they don't feel safe, etc. I just mentioned that what MR said could very well be true and WHY I felt he could be truthful about that. How can he refute the claim of sporadic visitation due to work, if it's true? By that time the bond is formed, can it be shifted, possibly, however if MR was still there when Dylan needed him to be there or Dylan could easily go to him when MR was in town. Also to consider though, is that while his dad moved into a new home, he was still VERY close by. I assume that during much of that earlier transition to their divorce there was not another man or family to adjust too, or LARGE environmental change. If there is we haven't heard about it. It's also fair to say that if MR was working this job or a similar type of job that took him away that he had already adjusted accordingly to that aspect. However, Dylan went from having adjusted to what came after their separation, whatever arrangements they had the new arrangements were VERY different as MR was no longer right down the road. Dylan went from NOT having MR right down the road, to a big move what 5 hours away, a new school, new friends, a new man(depending on when ER moved in with MH) and a new family, all while making the change from adolescence to the introduction of teenage hormones. The point was brought up that Dylan was not "talking" to MR after the move and I believe that it's very possible, based on this scientific theory, that Dylan might have been mad at MR about things that were beyond his control IF he developed this bond type of bond with MR. While he may have felt safe with both his parents the general premise is that during times of STRESS and CHANGE there is one child the parent feels safest with and it's usually the one they developed that primary bond with. I also found myself wondering how that all would play in if (this is not blaming, or anything so don't take it as such) if all the stresses and changes are because of what one parent does, would that child necessarily feel safe with that parent, based on the above. Again this is because I was TRYING to understand WHAT may have happened to cause the distance that MR felt from Dylan.

I do wonder if one of them can clarify when they actually had a "Court Order" established for custody as the only mention of anything "Court Ordered" was after the move to CS. They may not have ever had a custody order in place prior to this.

In the beginning of the KUSA interview he talks about being at home with Dylan bonding with him while ER was working. I felt somewhere else there was mention of him staying home with Dylan during the early years while ER worked as well but I can't recall where off the top of my head.

 

[rebeccaeee]

The SKELTON brothers have not been confirmed as murdered. They are classified as missing.

That's why I included :cow::cow::cow:

 

[iSleuth]

Mark told MB Dylan didn’t communicate with him after he dropped him off in CS after their vacation ended and Dylan started school on the 21st of August. Mark said the next time he saw Dylan was at the custody hearing near the end of September yet Elaine said Dylan visited his father on Labor Day weekend which is at the start of September.

Anyway, Mark said he texted Dylan at least once a week after he moved to CS but Dylan didn’t respond so I too wonder what Mark’s text messages said. Obviously if Dylan isn’t texting his father, Mark wouldn’t know exactly where Dylan was and what he was doing but when Dylan lived in Bayfield, Mark said he kept close tabs on Dylan and that was important to him iirc.

Elaine told NG Dylan knew if he didn’t use his cell phone to let her know where he was at all times, she would confiscate it but apparently this rule did not apply when Dylan didn’t respond to his father’s text messages. Mark did not discuss this with Elaine before Dylan visited his father in November afaik so I wonder if Mark was agitated and dealt with this problem in his own way when Dylan came to visit him.

As soon as Dylan arrived in Durango he responded to his mother’s text message because of the agreement they had but because he didn’t respond to her next two messages, their agreement which kept them close in the past, was now broken. Imo, Mark didn’t allow Dylan to go to Bayfield Sunday night and he was kept from communicating with his mother either because Mark didn’t want Elaine to be able to communicate with Dylan because he didn't respond to his messages for 3 months and/or Mark wanted to punish Dylan for not communicating with him but this is only speculation.

Why Dylan wouldn’t use his cell phone to communicate with his mother after he arrived at Mark’s house is a mystery and I’m not convinced Dylan texted from Mark’s house after the movie ended based on the obscure and convoluted information that’s been released.

MOO

I cannot stop thinking about this point. All this about the txting, and the not txting, and the last txt- not to mention MR's responses concerning the last txts.
LE told MR the last txts were 8pm and MR said it had to be closer to 9;30 pm. Here is my point. We have six plus significant others in our blended family -( now 18-27) but none of these kids of ours have been disconnected from their devices in years a decade. They are always on them, near them, posting in any number of ways, always connected. they don't want to answer your call - or instant message us back either. but they are never far from their connectivity. Studies all prove teens are online at night far far more and longer than their parents know. As annoying as this may be...it is a reality. The only way...that you could do this (unless a friendly dinner time solution -no phones) would be to physically and forcibly take it from them. just sayin'

Why does MR even know what time DR stopped txting that night? just MOO- MR's annoyance, nervousness, and anger re. the computers, phones ipods is always quite palpable.

This same tone is also noticeable when MR talks about returning home and DR not being where he was supposed to be.

 

[Money Girl]

That's right. So I am wondering why D would have been more distant when he landed in Durango in November.

Probably because of all the time he was in Colorado Springs - extended family, new school, new people in his life. Poor kid. He had a lot to deal with at one time.

 

[katydid23]

For your first BBM comment: In this instance specific to the case, it seems(taking into account all the various compilation of articles) that there was either no custody arrangements in place or some kind of flexible joint custody arrangement due to MR's work schedule. In the appearance of what has been presented for what came after the move is that as far as HOW long Dylan spent with ER, he primarily lived with her most likely due, as I said, to MR being out of town a lot for work. IMO I do not think that the courts would have allowed Dylan to live primarily with MR with him being out of town as much as he was. In the beginning there may not have even been a dispute with MR over the arrangements while Dylan lived in Bayfield as it worked best for everyone involved. I do believe things were complicated by the move to CS. Again if Dylan HAD wanted to stay in Bayfield with his father, how would that have worked out with MR being so frequently out of town? Regardless of how a court words the type of custody arrangement there is still one parent the child lives primarily with. (That is my opinion because even though an order may say "joint" it isn't exactly "equal.")

Your second BBM you will have to take up with child psychologists as that is in their studies and all I have done is point that out. I also noted that we didn't know and a lot was dependent on the facts you mentioned. Like when did ER got back to work after giving birth to Dylan and how long did Dylan stay home with MR, as it's said the bond is developed during the first 6 years of life and is dependent on who takes care of the child's need, who is there to doctor the booboos, to hold them when they don't feel safe, etc. I just mentioned that what MR said could very well be true and WHY I felt he could be truthful about that. How can he refute the claim of sporadic visitation due to work, if it's true? By that time the bond is formed, can it be shifted, possibly, however if MR was still there when Dylan needed him to be there or Dylan could easily go to him when MR was in town. Also to consider though, is that while his dad moved into a new home, he was still VERY close by. I assume that during much of that earlier transition to their divorce there was not another man or family to adjust too, or LARGE environmental change. If there is we haven't heard about it. It's also fair to say that if MR was working this job or a similar type of job that took him away that he had already adjusted accordingly to that aspect. However, Dylan went from having adjusted to what came after their separation, whatever arrangements they had the new arrangements were VERY different as MR was no longer right down the road. Dylan went from NOT having MR right down the road, to a big move what 5 hours away, a new school, new friends, a new man(depending on when ER moved in with MH) and a new family, all while making the change from adolescence to the introduction of teenage hormones. The point was brought up that Dylan was not "talking" to MR after the move and I believe that it's very possible, based on this scientific theory, that Dylan might have been mad at MR about things that were beyond his control IF he developed this bond type of bond with MR. While he may have felt safe with both his parents the general premise is that during times of STRESS and CHANGE there is one child the parent feels safest with and it's usually the one they developed that primary bond with. I also found myself wondering how that all would play in if (this is not blaming, or anything so don't take it as such) if all the stresses and changes are because of what one parent does, would that child necessarily feel safe with that parent, based on the above. Again this is because I was TRYING to understand WHAT may have happened to cause the distance that MR felt from Dylan.

I do wonder if one of them can clarify when they actually had a "Court Order" established for custody as the only mention of anything "Court Ordered" was after the move to CS. They may not have ever had a custody order in place prior to this.

In the beginning of the KUSA interview he talks about being at home with Dylan bonding with him while ER was working. I felt somewhere else there was mention of him staying home with Dylan during the early years while ER worked as well but I can't recall where off the top of my head.

IF MR was such a loving caring parent, that put bandaids on their booboos, and held them to make them feel safe, then why is he estranged from his older three sons?

 

[Money Girl]

Emma Ems,
Thank you for all the research you do and the links you post for us.

Valuable information.

 

[katydid23]

Probably because of all the time he was in Colorado Springs - extended family, new school, new people in his life. Poor kid. He had a lot to deal with at one time.

Being at the new school and being around his extended family was something he loved. He was very happy there. It was not something negative that he struggled to deal with.

If he had a close bond with his father he would not have been distant when he landed in Durango. Look at his picture in the Walmart. Does he look happy?

 

[katydid23]

The SKELTON brothers have not been confirmed as murdered. They are classified as missing.

Is that why their father is currently in :jail: ?

 

[Emma Ems]

IF MR was such a loving caring parent, that put bandaids on their booboos, and held them to make them feel safe, then why is he estranged from his older three sons?

I think that is a question for AZ than for me. I can only go by the bonding MR stated he had with Dylan. Also some parents feel like they messed up with older kids and try to do differently, I have seen that happen before. My inlaws were like that my BIL who was quite younger than his other two siblings. I believe my husband, who was the youngest, was 16 when BIL was born.

 

[katydid23]

I think that is a question for AZ than for me. I can only go by the bonding MR stated he had with Dylan. Also some parents feel like they messed up with older kids and try to do differently, I have seen that happen before. My inlaws were like that my BIL who was quite younger than his other two siblings. I believe my husband, who was the youngest, was 16 when BIL was born.

So you are going by the bonding HE SAID he had with Dylan? And I am going by what I see in the picture at Walmart, and his own words that Dylan hadn't spoken to him in months, and was distant when he arrived. And Dylan's texts to Ryan where he wanted to come right over when he landed, but when denied that, was quite eager to arrive at 6:30 the next morning. And I'm also going by what Cory has said, because he probably knew both Dylan and Mark better than anyone.

Just because Mark SAYS he had a closer bond than ER did, it does not make it so. If that was true, D would have been communicating with him. JMO

 

[Ghostwheel]

Bayou, Was the cross-country trip with Dylan and Mark this past August? That is a lot of bonding and one-on-one time.

BBM: Maybe. Or maybe it was a miserable time. Has anyone said Dylan had a great time? It's kind of heard to know if it was a lot of bonding if we don't know if Dylan liked the trip. Does anyone know?

 

[azgrandma]

The SKELTON brothers have not been confirmed as murdered. They are classified as missing.

True they are not classified as murdered and are still missing. Never ceases to amaze me how little children, young kids just barely in their teens and younger, have the amazing ability to disappear without a trace during visits with a parent. Perhaps they all got on the vessel that was mentioned earlier, because IMO I see no other way that they have disappeared. Why would anyone suspect or question the last person known to have seen them?

 

[Emma Ems]

So you are going by the bonding HE SAID he had with Dylan? And I am going by what I see in the picture at Walmart, and his own words that Dylan hadn't spoken to him in months, and was distant when he arrived. And Dylan's texts to Ryan where he wanted to come right over when he landed, but when denied that, was quite eager to arrive at 6:30 the next morning. And I'm also going by what Cory has said, because he probably knew both Dylan and Mark better than anyone.

Just because Mark SAYS he had a closer bond than ER did, it does not make it so. If that was true, D would have been communicating with him. JMO

So are you picking and choosing what things he says to believe. You can believe him when he says Dylan was distant yet not when he said they had a strong bond prior to Dylan moving to CO Springs?

By the same measure you are saying, just because MR said Dylan was distant from him does not make it true. That line of reasoning does not work for me. What I stated, which you are clearly missing in all of this, is that you doubted he had a stronger bond that ER. What I stated was, I could see that being "true" if it was true MR stayed at home with Dylan during the early formative years while ER worked, and presented "science" saying why that was likely possible. I was ALSO thinking of your other comment about Dylan not texting him after he moved to CS with ER, and again the science I presented could explain why that may have been. I, myself, am trying to understand what Dylan's life was like, because understanding that is the very first step of trying to figure out what may have happened to him, IMO. He said, she said's do not work for me. I took what he said and attempted to apply that to a psychological standard to see if it made sense and rang with some kind of truth. It doesn't mean that it's exactly true, just that it COULD be true and if so it should be considered(at least for me) in the course of speculations. Another thing I have taken in, while looking for the other source where I believed MR stated he was a stay at home dad, was looking at the MB transcripts on the media thread, MR made a statement about Dylan's personality. He said, Dylan never met a stranger. MB says, that's funny because that's the same thing Ryan said about Dylan. It gives me the idea that MR did know his son and that many of the things he says about Dylan in regards to his personality and what Dylan was like, is true. Independent verification of the "he saids, she saids" are things I like, especially when it comes from someone outside the inner circle. It makes them a bit more objective, IMO.

 

[Lordeebee]

The SKELTON brothers have not been confirmed as murdered. They are classified as missing.

That's right, just like Dylan. I find the circumstances eerily similar.

 

[katydid23]

It's hard to find stuff relating to young teens, but in some of what I am reading when it comes to divorce that the changing are often drastic for a child(of any age) and that due to the stressors with the change that the parent the child developed the primary attachment bond with is the one the child usually feels safest with in times of stress. Here is more about the bonding:



This the ages when the bond forms.



http://www.peterhaiman.com/articles...tional-development-when-parents-divorce.shtml

As you discuss the possibility that Mark is the parent that Dylan felt the most bonded to and the safest with, are you forgetting the time that Mark got drunk and tried to punch his ex, and Dylan punched his father himself, in response, to protect his mom. I think that labeling Mark as the parent that felt the 'safest' to Dylan is quite a stretch. JMO

 

[Emma Ems]

As you discuss the possibility that Mark is the parent that Dylan felt the most bonded to and the safest with, are you forgetting the time that Mark got drunk and tried to punch his ex, and Dylan punched his father himself, in response, to protect his mom. I think that labeling Mark as the parent that felt the 'safest' to Dylan is quite a stretch. JMO

I am not convinced that it was Dylan who did that, or if Dylan was even there for that. I saw the documents the reporter was given in the interview(on the screen), but the names were redacted as they would have done with minors, wasn't Cory still a minor at this time as well?

 

[katydid23]

So are you picking and choosing what things he says to believe. You can believe him when he says Dylan was distant yet not when he said they had a strong bond prior to Dylan moving to CO Springs?

By the same measure you are saying, just because MR said Dylan was distant from him does not make it true. That line of reasoning does not work for me. What I stated, which you are clearly missing in all of this, is that you doubted he had a stronger bond that ER. What I stated was, I could see that being "true" if it was true MR stayed at home with Dylan during the early formative years while ER worked, and presented "science" saying why that was likely possible. I was ALSO thinking of your other comment about Dylan not texting him after he moved to CS with ER, and again the science I presented could explain why that may have been. I, myself, am trying to understand what Dylan's life was like, because understanding that is the very first step of trying to figure out what may have happened to him, IMO. He said, she said's do not work for me. I took what he said and attempted to apply that to a psychological standard to see if it made sense and rang with some kind of truth. It doesn't mean that it's exactly true, just that it COULD be true and if so it should be considered(at least for me) in the course of speculations. Another thing I have taken in, while looking for the other source where I believed MR stated he was a stay at home dad, was looking at the MB transcripts on the media thread, MR made a statement about Dylan's personality. He said, Dylan never met a stranger. MB says, that's funny because that's the same thing Ryan said about Dylan. It gives me the idea that MR did know his son and that many of the things he says about Dylan in regards to his personality and what Dylan was like, is true. Independent verification of the "he saids, she saids" are things I like, especially when it comes from someone outside the inner circle. It makes them a bit more objective, IMO.

BBM

Yes, I do believe one and not the other. Because one statement is self serving and the other is not. JMO

And just because Mark was home while ER worked during some early years, it does not 'prove scientifically' that Dylan was absolutely more bonded to MR. That depends entirely upon Mrks level of connection and caring. Given the critical nature and rude jabs I have seen him giving out towards many people, I doubt he was a very caring, gracious person. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I am not convinced that it was Dylan who did that, or if Dylan was even there for that. I saw the documents the reporter was given in the interview(on the screen), but the names were redacted as they would have done with minors, wasn't Cory still a minor at this time as well?

Does it even matter WHICH son it was? They were both severely affected, either way.

 

[katydid23]

I am not convinced that it was Dylan who did that, or if Dylan was even there for that. I saw the documents the reporter was given in the interview(on the screen), but the names were redacted as they would have done with minors, wasn't Cory still a minor at this time as well?

So you have seen those documents, and you are still trying to convince us all that Dylan had a better bonding with Mark than he did with Elaine? :waitasec:

 

[Lordeebee]

So are you picking and choosing what things he says to believe. You can believe him when he says Dylan was distant yet not when he said they had a strong bond prior to Dylan moving to CO Springs?

By the same measure you are saying, just because MR said Dylan was distant from him does not make it true. That line of reasoning does not work for me. What I stated, which you are clearly missing in all of this, is that you doubted he had a stronger bond that ER. What I stated was, I could see that being "true" if it was true MR stayed at home with Dylan during the early formative years while ER worked, and presented "science" saying why that was likely possible. I was ALSO thinking of your other comment about Dylan not texting him after he moved to CS with ER, and again the science I presented could explain why that may have been. I, myself, am trying to understand what Dylan's life was like, because understanding that is the very first step of trying to figure out what may have happened to him, IMO. He said, she said's do not work for me. I took what he said and attempted to apply that to a psychological standard to see if it made sense and rang with some kind of truth. It doesn't mean that it's exactly true, just that it COULD be true and if so it should be considered(at least for me) in the course of speculations. Another thing I have taken in, while looking for the other source where I believed MR stated he was a stay at home dad, was looking at the MB transcripts on the media thread, MR made a statement about Dylan's personality. He said, Dylan never met a stranger. MB says, that's funny because that's the same thing Ryan said about Dylan. It gives me the idea that MR did know his son and that many of the things he says about Dylan in regards to his personality and what Dylan was like, is true. Independent verification of the "he saids, she saids" are things I like, especially when it comes from someone outside the inner circle. It makes them a bit more objective, IMO.

If Dylan was so outgoing, the type of child that "never met a stranger", then why was he distant with his own father?

I can understand the natural bonding that occurs with a primary caregiver in the early years. But I also believe when a child reaches adolescence, they begin to see more clearly the "person" in their parents. Along with increasing independence and maturity they can see who their parents are and form opinions on if they even care for the parent, or the parent's behavior. Moo