Hi Ciriii57. Depending upon what source you check, it’s unclear if Roger was placing or retrieving a book. The Charlie Project states he was placing his books in his locker. He did however see his locker mate, and he said something to the effect of I’ll catch up with you later. If Roger did indeed have something he needed to take care of, it seems unlikely he would exit the building carrying any retrived books. I guess the exception would be if he were planning on only being gone for a short time. But he would have been marked Tardy for his class. It would seem if he was going to take care of something that would only take a short time, he would have done it before the classes started. In regards to JP class assignment. The social assignment. JP stated that he ended on this, not Added. I agree with you that JP is toying with the group, but IMO he is doing so to deflect suspicions away from himself. It is reported that Roger had to drop assignments off at JP’S house in order to go skiing. To me this is a red flag. I would think that if Roger had a skiing event to go to, he would have just turned the assignment in the day before in class. If you have not already read the blog called help solve a cold case, I would encourage you to do so . There is a quote from a former student, that points a finger at JP regarding some inappropriate behavior taking place at JP’S house. In regards to the search of the property with the ground radar, there were other spots besides the garage floor. I believe the team recommended to LE to dig these, but it was never performed. There was the one dig that occurred, because of the statement made by the former student. IMO JP was, and is still the main person of interest in this case.
CO CO - Roger Ellison, 17, Cedaredge, 10 Feb 1981 #2
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This always concerned me as well,
Why did Roger have to turn in assignments at Pash's house to go skiing? Why couldn't he turn them in at school? I don't know if the alleged activities at Pash's house were rumors. or if they actually happened. We know that Roger did not like Pash.
Satch
Ciriii57
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Hey Soundman! Thanks for your responses! I think we have different theories with this one but that's good right, that's why we're here! I'm happy to play Devil's advocate and i am very happy to be swayed/disproved.
My opinion on this also extends to Lori's site. While I think it is an excellent source of information on the case, I find that it is heavily biased against Pash (I know, probably a very unpopular opinion!).
Regarding the alleged activities at Pash's home. Ok, it is possible that there were some gatherings and I believe an earlier poster mentioned that this was quite normal for a sports team. Seems legit that the wrestling team could've chilled at the coach's house after an event, especially back then BUT I must point out, Pash's wife and young son were living with him...where were they when these supposedly drug fuelled student-teacher orgies were happening?! I don't really believe that Pash was directly involved, but he could have unknowingly facilitated activities by an older sports jock on other more vulnerable students perhaps.
All in all I strongly believe that far too much attention has been placed on Pash as the guilty party, almost like tunnel vision, to the detriment of looking at anyone else who might be involved. I hope I can bring some other suspects to the fore eventually.
Just want you to know I strongly respect everyone else's ideas considering everyone's devotion here and these are just my own
Ciriii
Sorry I wasn't clear, I wasn't directly quoting him, I meant that I felt he added these institutions on the end...to me he almost gave them more significance. Of course, this is just my interpretation.
Regarding this, I think someone else mentioned earlier in the thread that all the early reports state that he was retrieving a book for his first class. The later mistake about him dropping off his books seems to have stemmed from Charley Project and then been promulgated elsewhere. Charley also mentioned he had an orange or yellow backpack on him as well, so again I have to wonder, where is this, presumably with the book in it.
LE did actually dig a large section of the garden on the Necrosearch teams recommendation but found nothing. I'm convinced there was nothing to find, I mean I'm sure that LE wouldn't go to the expense and effort to call in this specialist team and then ignore their recommendations.
Regarding this, while I am sorry if something happened to this person, I personally am not willing to accuse a man of murder based on one unverified, anonymous comment by a possible former student. Pash must have had thousands of students over the years and seems to have been a well respected teacher, if not universally loved by his students.
My opinion on this also extends to Lori's site. While I think it is an excellent source of information on the case, I find that it is heavily biased against Pash (I know, probably a very unpopular opinion!).
Hey Satch! I can't explain why he had to hand in his assignments at Pash's house and clearly this shouldn't have been happening. It does seem slightly odd doesn't it, I can't understand why he couldn't hand them in at school a day before. But, to play Devil's advocate here: I don't know what the schools policies were in handing in assignments early. It also could be Pash being his usual domineering self and asserting his control on the situation "if you want to miss my class to ski then you can hand in your assignment early at my house". So we know if other students also did this?
Regarding the alleged activities at Pash's home. Ok, it is possible that there were some gatherings and I believe an earlier poster mentioned that this was quite normal for a sports team. Seems legit that the wrestling team could've chilled at the coach's house after an event, especially back then BUT I must point out, Pash's wife and young son were living with him...where were they when these supposedly drug fuelled student-teacher orgies were happening?! I don't really believe that Pash was directly involved, but he could have unknowingly facilitated activities by an older sports jock on other more vulnerable students perhaps.
All in all I strongly believe that far too much attention has been placed on Pash as the guilty party, almost like tunnel vision, to the detriment of looking at anyone else who might be involved. I hope I can bring some other suspects to the fore eventually.
Just want you to know I strongly respect everyone else's ideas considering everyone's devotion here and these are just my own
Ciriii
Hi Ciriii57. Here’s a couple things that troubled me about JP. It is reported that he visited Roger’s parents shortly after Roger’s disappearance. In that visit he reportedly told them that Roger was suicidal, or had suicidal tendencies. I find it really hard to believe that Roger’s parents would make this up. Yet here in Websleuths JP adamantly denies that he did this. I always wondered why Roger’s parents asked to speak to JP in the first place. Besides the fact that Roger stated he didn’t like JP, was there something else that he told them? One other thing that bothered me is something I’ve discussed before. JP let us all know that he was disgusted with rumors here on the thread. He went into detail about that class assignment, and Roger’s circumstances as he called it. He stated he later took a College course on it. And he stated to taught on it once he went to California, but only after hearing a rumor that Roger had been found working at a gas station in Kansas. On several occasions he made it clear that he was bound by LE to not discuss Roger’s response to that word association assignment, or Roger’s circumstances. Now why would an intelligent meticulous man like JP, who hated the rumor mill, go ahead and start teaching on it, without first confirming with the Delta Sheriffs department that Roger had really been found? This just doesn’t make sense. Lastly I have racked my brain on his statement about someone in authority being involved in Cedaredge. Two things come to mind. First I believe he did not leave Cedaredge under the best of circumstances, and likely had an axe to grind. And second, I believe that this is further evidence that JP was trying to deflect suspicion off of himself, and taking a jab at someone he didn’t like.
Guys,
Great stuff! I love all the different theories! In my view, I don't think there is any physical evidence to link JP to murdering Roger. I agree along with @Ciriii57 along the lines that Roger saw something really bad in the community that he was not supposed to see. And the really bad thing could have been done by a higher-up in the small, somewhat backwoods community, where speculation has a way of becoming fact. Roger either told, or threatened to tell about what he saw, and was silenced for "good morals."
Nobody wants to talk because this person or their family members could still be alive, and they don't want to bring about evidence that could hurt themselves or their families. This was not over a bag of weed. If the poachers story is true, it could really put all of the above factors into place that Roger's murder was a cover-up to protect a higher authority.
And IF JP were guilty, why doesn't he support the poacher story to use that to clear his name? Wouldn't a guilty man want to jump at the chance to do that?
However, I agree with @Soundman that JP knows more than he is telling. And I also agree that with @Soundman that this action quoted:
Satch
Great stuff! I love all the different theories! In my view, I don't think there is any physical evidence to link JP to murdering Roger. I agree along with @Ciriii57 along the lines that Roger saw something really bad in the community that he was not supposed to see. And the really bad thing could have been done by a higher-up in the small, somewhat backwoods community, where speculation has a way of becoming fact. Roger either told, or threatened to tell about what he saw, and was silenced for "good morals."
Nobody wants to talk because this person or their family members could still be alive, and they don't want to bring about evidence that could hurt themselves or their families. This was not over a bag of weed. If the poachers story is true, it could really put all of the above factors into place that Roger's murder was a cover-up to protect a higher authority.
And IF JP were guilty, why doesn't he support the poacher story to use that to clear his name? Wouldn't a guilty man want to jump at the chance to do that?
However, I agree with @Soundman that JP knows more than he is telling. And I also agree that with @Soundman that this action quoted:
does not make sense. Furthermore, if JP had not given out this assignment, we would never have known who he was in the case. @Ciriii57 believe that Roger's answers in JP's word association assignment may provide clues as to what happend to him or where he went.
Satch
Ciriii57
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Hey Soundman. I do agree that the story about the visit to the parents doesn't make sense and I certainly can't get my head around it. I feel like we don't have the whole story. Did JP say that LE told him to visit the parents? Because I cannot believe any LE would do that, it would be highly inappropriate. I also find it suspect that of all the teachers to go, it was JP, who apparently didn't really know Roger well and who Roger disliked. IF Roger's parents requested that JP visited them then I can only think it was after LE had told them about the assignment and were at that time treating it as a possible suicide; so maybe thay wanted to hear the story from him.
I don't think the Ellisons were lying necessarily but I do think it possible that JP did visit (God knows why?) and JP maybe suggested that Roger had taken his own life (in a very clumsy attempt to comfort them) which made the Ellison's furious-of course, no one wants to hear that.
I would also agree with you; there was something off about JP being so hush, hush and offended on here and yet admitting that he had been using Roger's example as a teaching aid. But I personally just see this as more "Pashism"-although I don't think him guilty, I do think he was an arrogant a-hole who enjoyed being superior to everyone and I take alot of what he said as just some imperious fool who'd found an outlet to show how clever he was. I don't know, I could be wrong, but I just don't see JP or his actions as guilty. Instead I see a bitter man who felt he had been wronged by a whole community (Cedaeredge and WS) that he saw as beneath him and in clumsily trying to clear his name, instead made himself look even more guilty.
Had Pash already moved to California when he heard the rumour about Roger working in a gas station do we know? Coz it strikes me that this would not have made the California news, so preumably he was still in contact with someone from Cedaredge? I wonder who...?
Further to this; I wondered what everyone's thoughts were abiot the school friend who claimed to have seen Roger all in white and quickly left before she could talk to him (I forget where)-this never seemed to be followed up by anyone or have much chatter on here? I wondered if it worth exploring more?
I wish I knew more about the skiing and who and what happened over Christmas because I have a feeling (like another poster earlier) that whatever happened, happened then. Why Roger chose this date in February to confront the situation I don't know, but I am almost certain that something had "shifted/changed" in the days or week previously. I think people in that community have an idea who is responsible.
Ciriii
Cirrii57 I believe that he had already moved to California when the rumor about Roger being found came out. I believe JP even quoted about it, something to the effect of “rumor is just rumor after all “. So he did acknowledge it, but he made no attempt to confirm it with LE before starting to teach on Roger’s circumstances.
Ciriii57
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It was beyond unprofessional of him to use another students answers as examples. Whether he thought they were alive or not, they were private responses. He'd get sacked for that now.
Agree 100%
JP is not certified as a psychiatrist, or psychologist, or even a mental health professional. Him sharing those personal things that Roger wrote crossed the line. And what would give him the right to go a visit the Ellison's like that when Roger did not even like this guy? Did Roger always not like Pash? Or did the dislike stem from Pash sharing those answers? Today, these would be code of ethics violations. And OMG, if Pash allowed kids to smoke weed at his house, and this happened today? He would be fired so fast that he wouldn't know what hit him!
The proper thing for Pash to do would have been to revise that assignment so that it did not contain sensitive or confidential information. And also if Pash suspected something, to turn it over to the school counselors. I could see Pash thinking because of his arrogance, that he could wear the hats of anyone and masquerade as a "professional." But you can't do that JP! You are manipulating people's feelings and lives!
Satch
Ciriii57
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I'm not 100% but I thought it must have been within that week as the papers were still in his desk.
Here are Mr. Pash's alleged answers regarding Roger's disappearance for review:
findrogerellison.wordpress.com
Satch
Pash speaks out on Ellison disappearance
John Pash posted the following response to Websleuths on Tuesday, July 28, 2009: Hello Sleuthies I use this term because it is obvious that you all lack the skill necessary to be a true sleuth. And…
findrogerellison.wordpress.com
Satch
AliceInPain
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Here are Mr. Pash's alleged answers regarding Roger's disappearance for review:
Pash speaks out on Ellison disappearance
John Pash posted the following response to Websleuths on Tuesday, July 28, 2009: Hello Sleuthies I use this term because it is obvious that you all lack the skill necessary to be a true sleuth. And…
Satch
I remember reading these! What a patronizing j*rk!! =*****D
Were those removed? I only found a few of his later posts in this thread...
This is a quote from him in that thread………. “The other interesting thing is that the man is reported as holding a shotgun. There are 3 shell casings found with the skeleton. Are the shell casings for a shotgun, or a rifle? “ It appears JP has joined the case of the poachers ( man holding shotgun) with the case of the skeletal remains found in Chaffee county, ( three shell casings found) .
Ciriii57
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I noticed that when I read through, but I hadn't looked into the UID so I thought the rest of you guys would know, and since no one commented I assumed he was wrong, do you think he may have been into something then?
Satch, I don’t believe so. JP even mentioned he was not sure of the time frame. It sure would be nice if some former members of that Psychology class that Roger was in would have a recollection of this assignment, and post their thoughts here.
It really bugs me that JP never enlightened any of the Websleuths community about Roger’s supposed circumstances. IMO, given the details of what he has contributed here, I am inclined to believe that he fabricated the whole thing to deflect away from himself.
spartanx
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In this strange case, I think that a lot has been said, but many things went wrong at the time of the disappearance: the police, the school, the teachers, etc. I have the impression that it was the teacher or another person who trusted him since he was very popular in The school knew a lot of people and envy was always there... which I don't understand why the police didn't dig up the teacher's house... if the radar indicated anomalies... poor young boy I hope that one day the truth will be known. .
rest in peace
rest in peace
ThePhantom
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Mr. Pash was too invested, too interested and too arrogant to not come across as being suspicious as hell. He was antagonistic, juvenile, sarcastic and taunting in his responses to anyone here who dared to engage him. I also think he may have shown up under other pseudonyms. In keeping with Occam's Razor, I still believe he may be the most likely culprit. Someone (a former student?) had created a website that outlined her reasons for believing Pash was behind Roger's disappearance. If I recall correctly, she wound up taking the website down. I think he may have been taunting her as well. Someone please correct me if her website is still up (I'm sorry I can't recall her name at the moment). It still seems perfectly possible Roger's remains are somewhere in those woods where the man on his death bed said he saw Roger tied to a tree with a gun pointed at him. This case has always devastated me -- especially since it seems the local police were not equipped to properly investigate it. Roger's family suffered so deeply for so long -- I hate that they never got answers. Though I think the opportunity for justice for Roger has now passed, he will never be forgotten.
ThePhantom
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Agree.