CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #11

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I know a strong theory here is that the children were already dead when Shanann got home.

But as far as family annhilators go, I think some of them, if motivated immensely by spite and revenge, want to kill the children in front of the mother. Of course seeing the children already dead would still illicit the same hurt, trauma, shock and agony, but I keep thinking about this, if it’s possible for him to have killed the children in front of her for his own sick revenge and pleasure. And if so, as I asked before, how could this be accomplished...maybe he restrained her, jmo.

I see what you're saying -- the ultimate cruelty, but it would have been a tough one -- he would have had to totally disable her & keep her from screaming. IIRC, the houses in that neighborhood weren't that far apart. She would have fought him beyond her normal strength level, I'm sure, and woe to him if she somehow had gotten herself free. If he did it this way, surely he would have spent most of his energy & anger on disabling her. If he had knocked her out, she wouldn't have seen the horror of what he did to the children. Anything is possible.
 
One thing that would completely blow up CW's story, is the timeline and the autopsy.

If the girls were killed significantly earlier, the autopsy will show that they were killed soon after dinner, with food still undigested in their stomachs. That will blow a hole in his story about SW killing her children, and him killing her soon later.

So, it will be interesting to see the autopsy results.
 
I imagine he was a lot more emotional when crowds weren’t around. IMO

Not according to his two good friends, that he was staying with. They said his biggest concern seemed to be how we was coming across to the public.

No mention of him being 'emotional' about his missing family. They couldn't even get him to go search for them. He made excuses not to. I looked for my missing cat harder than he looked for his 'missing' family.
 
Wait....you think SW's best friend, 'suspected something sinister' about ShanAnn? Really? Is there anying she has said in her many interviews, that would corroborate that?

No there isn’t ... it’s a theory.
 
Me too. It also looks like CW threw the pillow cases and a top sheet in the trash on Aug 15, the day LE found them and the day he was arrested. Though it may mean that CW threw them away right after the murder, just never took out the trash since then.

My assumption differs from yours. My assumption was that that was seen and collected on the day they had a warrantless search, the first day they were there. I don't think we have seen the results of anything from a search warrant which I would assume has much after he was arrested. A search warrant has not been released, nor as far as what the warrant return was as far as I have seen.
 
Too funny. She flipped because he says hes leaving with the kids so he stuffs his beloved kids, who he wanted to leave with per dadvocate, into vats of crude oil without knowing if they are dead or alive.
BBM
And if this were the case, then he's lied again since he told us she said she was going to a friend's. Duh o_O
 
I think before she gets named, LE will need to have evidence that links her to the crime. She may have helped him with knowledge. She may think she is smarter than everyone. She may be thinking her involvement is remote enough that they can’t establish a forensic link.
I believe the police know who she is. It is easy enough just by checking phone records. SW was out of town so certainly had no reason to delete his call record or texts until she got back. So going with that theory maybe she is working with the police. She would certainly be privy to much of what was going on with CW during the time his wife was away. If he did fall for her and want out of his marriage, he could very well have said he would get divorced and they could get together. I am saying this assuming he really did want to be with her as opposed to just wanting to be free of all relationships and play the field.

Regardless of his intentions, what he was telling her can still give a clearer picture of what was going on in his mind at the time. If she knew he was married unless she was unhappily married herself I can't see her getting involved with him unless he was telling her he had plans for divorce, they weren't getting along blah blah blah which all goes towards motive. We know men will kill their wives in kids rather then file for divorce because to some men $$ and not wanting the responsibilities of weekend visits because he really wasn't that into his kids (killing them proves it) then he wanted a clean slate a la Scott Peterson. Free, not attachments and no bills.

I do think he was an emotionally needy person which most narcissists are because they need their ego constantly stroked. They tend to be very envious of their spouse's activities that do not center around him. His use of "her people" in the interview (jealousy) really irked me, not the word itself rather the way he said it adding in that she may ignore him but not them. I understand her people because everyone she recruied is in fact "her people", That is the correct terminology when your business is centered around recruiting people to sell and motivating them to actually do the same. That is how they make money. A good part of her time had to be spent encouraging new people to try this way or that way and many lose interest shortly and quit in that type of MLM business. I know this for a fact because I sold Mary Kay and at times it was tough enough training them in presentation and about the products themselves there is the rest of the job which was keeping myself motivated as well as every person on your team. That alone can be a full time job in itself. It's exhausting.

Shannan not only had her people to keep her busy, she was raising two young kids and pregnant with another. I'm tired just thinking about what her daily routine was and the fact she had lupus on top of it all. She really must have been an incredible woman. This would cause someone like CW to become extremely agitated that others people's needs were coming before his and frankly annoyance of his own kids as well. They also required her attention therefore robbing him of what little time his wife had to take care of HIS needs. When I read she had 5 weeks of meals prepared in the freezer for him that just cinched it for me. Needy man with a wife that went well out of her way to make sure he was looked after, probably so he wouldn't whine about it all to her.

So yeah, I think it's very likely if this is the first time he strayed, that he started looking around for a person to fill his own time with...someone who was available to care about him and focus on him. If in fact this was a new relationship and not something that had been going on before, sure the high people get when they first get together is wonderful. I can see him feeling he deserved it and SW just wasn't giving him the frequent attention and hand holding he needed. Oh yeah, he needed hand holding. Look at the sad presentation for his communication class. He is not only boring as all hell he lacks confidence as well. SW lifted his ego and then she "let him down" by not being available enough for him. I pity what life must have been like with him. I also would bet whoever his girlfriend is, she doesn't have kids which would make her a more appealing option for him since clearly he didn't want his own kids.
 
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Yes. And we actually have a ton of evidence (or at least knowledge of it). Here is the evidence we know of:

1. Dad claims he saw a blue child on a black and white monitor.

2. The coincidence of two people, unrelated by blood, both reacting to something bad, in a short span of time by losing their minds and committing homicide, defies reason.

3. The coincidence of those same people both committing homicide in the exact same manner -strangulation- is unlikely.

4. A father passionate enough with love for his children, to kill at the sight of them being harmed, would be desperate beyond reason to save them. But:
a. Dad failed to call 911 to try to save his children. Even if he thought they were beyond help, a parent's love is so intense they will desperately and irrationally try for help that will never come.
b. There is no account of him throwing off the mother and working desperately to revive them or resuscitate them. Hell, total strangers have performed CPR on a child's corpse in rigor. (Cooper Harris case). But a passionately loving dad didn't even try in this case?

5. The dad failed to call 911 after killing his wife in a supposed fury of emotion.

6. Dad also failed to run screaming onto the lawn for help or in anguish.
In cases of such Greek tragedy magnitude either 5 or 6 usually comes into play.

7. This entire scene - the "emotional argument", the vicious strangulation of two children, the father witnessing the incomprehensible and reacting with murderous fury and anguish - all of it was totally silent. Except for the poor dog howling that night. How do we know? Because the houses are in close proximity and neighbors mentioned hearing nothing but the dog the next day, IIRC.

8. CW did not scream or wail in anguish so great that it caused him to murder his wife. Not one report of such sounds.

9. CW supposedly lost his mind in grief and anguish. However he regained it in moments in a manner that does not comport with a true mental break. In cases we have seen where people lose it and commit murder, they are typically either wailing on the lawn and to 911 operators or they are in an apparent psychotic state- not lying about what happened, not covering it up, not able to function normally at all. See thumbnail of Julie Schenecker as an example of what this looks like. Police interview Julie Schenecker after kids found dead

10. CW, after such an insanely, horrific Greek tragedy of a scene, calmly loaded up the bodies of his wife and children in order to conceal their deaths and dispose of them. We know this because a neighbor stated she witnessed him leaving. (No reports of wailing and she said, IIRC, the truck drove normally. So no veering, spinning of tires or other signs of lack of composure). And it's apparently on video.

11. CW, a man passionately in love enough with his kids to erupt in murderous rage when they're harmed, did not attempt to give them a burial that comports psychologically with the love and bond parents have with their kids. Death Rituals Reported by White, Black, and Hispanic Parents Following the ICU Death of an Infant or Child
A Global History of Child Death

12. Instead he dumps them in two separate vats of oil. Not together. No way to commemorate their lives. Concealed. Discarded. In a manner that veers from any known traditional burial rite of any kind.

13. CW went to work and monitored the ring video of his house. After the horrific Greek tragedy he just endured. He went to work. And monitored the video of his front door.

14. CW left a few voice messages and sent some texts to the wife he knew was dead, thus calmly concealing what happened.

15. CW calmly called SW's friend after she came to the door and he saw her on the ring video. He asked what was going on. We know this because he stated as much and this is corroborated by the friend.

16. CW rushed home - blowing stop signs and with beating heart, according to him- when CW came to the house and expressed alarm. The first time we have heard of a hint of emotion on his part since the horrific murders of his kids supposedly by his wife and his heat of passion killing of her, occurs when he knew the authorities are about to get involved.

17. CW cooly lied to the friend about where SW was supposed to be that day and why she wasn't at home. After he lost his mind the night before. He is calm and able to work to conceal those events.

18. There is not one hint of brief reactive psychosis or drug induced psychosis in CW's demeanor and behavior since 5:15 am the morning of the deaths, nor the next day as he gives calm and detailed interviews to the media. His pupils are normal. He is not slurring speech. He does not have a vacant stare. He exhibits no delusions or paranoia. He is not showing emotional lability. (I'm no expert in psychology but have seen a few psychotic people due to psychotic breaks or drugs. You don't snap out of that fast. It's easy to research).

19. CW shows no anguish, depression, grief, concern, sadness or despair during his stoic media interviews, despite having supposedly been so deranged by his passionate love for his kids that he killed their attacker. His eyes are dry. Not red. No signs of puffiness from weeping. His face is smooth and calm. He looks well rested. No bags under his eyes. He smiles. He grins. He smirks. All with the knowledge that his insane wife savagely murdered his precious babies causing him to lose his mind with anguish. And with the knowledge that the people he loved so fiercely it caused him to kill, are at that moment rotting in separate vats of oil.

20. CW calmly and continuously lies to the media about the whereabouts of his dead wife and dead children.

21. CW systematically works with LE to track down his wife and kids. Brainstorming. Supplying numbers and addresses. Calling people. All the while knowing they are dead and decomposing.

22. CW is questioned and lies about having an affair. A motive in many murders of wives.

23. SW was pregnant. (A circumstance present in vast numbers of murders of spouses or parents by men).

24. Some people and report that CW seemed distant with his wife and kids in the weeks leading up to this monstrous event.

25. CW was not hospitalized for any reason after this tragedy.

From the CO model jury instructions:

D:01 DIRECT AND CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE—NO DISTINCTION

A fact may be proven by either direct or circumstantial evidence. Under the law, both are acceptable ways to prove something. Neither is necessarily more reliable than the other.


E:03 PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE, BURDEN OF PROOF, AND REASONABLE DOUBT

Reasonable doubt means a doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence, or the lack of evidence, in the case. It is a doubt which is not a vague, speculative or imaginary doubt, but such a doubt as would cause reasonable people to hesitate to act in matters of importance to themselves.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Committees/Criminal_Jury_Instructions/2017/COLJI-Crim 2017 - Final.pdf
Excellent, excellent. Thanks gitana1 for this concise, well thought out post. We needed a summary of events. This is a keeper.
 
No way. She would know darn well that he had no legal way to take the kids. She would get primary custody because she is the one who had been staying home and caring for them. There is no way she would have 'flipped' and strangled them, just because of a hollow threat.

If you think about it, it is more likely she said she was going and taking the kids. He even said as much. He said she told him she was taking the kids to a friends house. Kernel of truth in every lie told...


It is more likely they had an 'emotional conversation' and she said go ahead, go get with your new girlfriend, I'm taking the kids to NC and good luck , good riddance---and he is probably the one who 'flipped out' and decided to teach her a painful, horrible lesson.

I agree. Not to mention, why would she flip out? She told the hairdresser they were separating, he told her they were separating. What is to flip out about? Sounds like she would have championed joint custody and the least amount of stress on the kids' lives. The equity on the home would afford them both decent down payments on two modest homes.
 
Hope we hear the cadaver dogs indicated the Master bedroom, for smells, or other places besides the kiddies rooms.
This would indicate where/when CW killed SW.
She wasn't trying to suffocate the children, in other rooms: kids would be in their beds, at that time of night.


I am so glad that he kept talking about the baby monitors. Because now he can't try and say that the girls were asleep in the master bedroom.
 
THIS!!! So much this, it's why i was so insistent on the shirt thing. If my family was missing I can hardly believe if a reporter interrupted our interview to ask about a shirt my reaction would be so... I questioned myself if I wouldn't have gotten nasty with them because I think I would have if I was distraught. But he was proud to show it off! His whole demeanor changed, "yeah, I'm tired of talking about this missing persons stuff"WHAT???

And not being surrounded by family or friends at the time, and talking about how he was alone. Where are his friends that would want to do a go fund me! Or something to help find them! As His Friends did, the other friends in addition to the first one, they actually called the police and said he is not acting normal he is not trying to do anything. Remember there were two people excuse me three people that contacted police and said he is not acting normally. N and the couple who he stayed with the second night and his behaviour was suspicious.
 
Can’t figure out why she didn’t take his word for it. Had he lied to her before?
I'm not going to spend any more time answering this question for you. I've answered it twice before and so have many other posters. Why are you so fixated on NUA and the welfare check? Not that I expect an answer.
 
But don't you think if he'd lost his temper he'd have feelings of guilt and remorse after the fact?

He went to work like nothing and smiled in his interviews.

Moo
bbm
A true sociopath has no guilt, or remorse -- those feelings are just not in the personality of a sociopath. Mr. Smooth.
 
They may have cried for Mommy , which may have angered him too. They had just spent 6 weeks with her and the grandparents. Then suddenly Mom is gone and they are with Dad, who they hadn't spent much time with recently. And his heart was somewhere else...if he even has one...
Oh lord....Just imagining them crying for Mommy makes me a wreck. I'm thinking about the horror of their last few minutes of life....struggling and crying for their Mommy. Rips me apart.
 
I believe the police know who she is. It is easy enough just by checking phone records. SW was out of town so certainly had no reason to delete his call record or texts until she got back. So going with that theory maybe she is working with the police. She would certainly be privy to much of what was going on with CW during the time his wife was away. If he did fall for her and want out of his marriage, he could very well have said he would get divorced and they could get together. I am saying this assuming he really did want to be with her as opposed to just wanting to be free of all relationships and play the field.

Regardless of his intentions, what he was telling her can still give a clearer picture of what was going on in his mind at the time. If she knew he was married unless she was unhappily married herself I can't see her getting involved with him unless he was telling her he had plans for divorce, they weren't getting along blah blah blah which all goes towards motive. We know men will kill their wives in kids rather then file for divorce because to some men $$ and not wanting the responsibilities of weekend visits because he really wasn't that into his kids (killing them proves it) then he wanted a clean slate a la Scott Peterson. Free, not attachments and no bills.

I do think he was an emotionally needy person which most narcissists are because they need their ego constantly stroked. They tend to be very envious of their spouse's activities that do not center around him. His use of "her people" in the interview (jealousy) really irked me, not the word itself because I understand that is the terminology when your business is centered around recruiting people to sell and motivating them to actually do the same. That is how they make money. A good part of her time had to be spent encouraging new people to try this way or that way and many lose interest shortly and quit in that type of MLM business. I know this for a fact because I sold Mary Kay and at times it was tough enough training them in presentation and about the products themselves there is the rest of the job which was keeping myself motivated as well as every person on your team. That alone can be a full time job in itself. It's exhausting.

Shannan not only had her people to keep her busy, she was raising two young kids and pregnant with another. I'm tired just thinking about what her daily routine was and the fact she had lupus on top of it all. She really must have been an incredible woman. This would cause someone like CW to become extremely agitated that others people's needs were coming before his and frankly annoyance of his own kids as well. They also required her attention therefore robbing him of what little time his wife had to take care of HIS needs. When I read she had 5 weeks of meals prepared in the freezer for him that just cinched it for me. Needy man with a wife that went well out of her way to make sure he was looked after, probably so he wouldn't whine about it all to her.

So yeah, I think it's very likely if this is the first time he strayed, that he started looking around for a person to fill his own time with...someone who was available to care about him and focus on him. If in fact this was a new relationship and not something that had been going on before, sure the high people get when they first get together is wonderful. I can see him feeling he deserved it and SW just wasn't giving him the frequent attention and hand holding he needed. Oh yeah, he needed hand holding. Look at the sad presentation for his communication class. He is not only boring as all hell he lacks confidence as well. SW lifted his ego and then she "let him down" by not being available enough for him. I pity what life must have been like with him. I also would bet whoever his girlfriend is, she doesn't have kids which would make her a more appealing option for him since clearly he didn't want his own kids.
The presentation was bizarre. Most community colleges do require a "Speech" class but I would have flunked had I presented such sophomoric pablum, and reading it no less. Honestly i dont understand his high school shop\mechanics teacher calling him a genius.
 
It’s really mind boggling the folks who immediately go to guilty without seeing the facts of the case.
 
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