Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #22

[Allabouttrial]

I too am in this boat. I need more information. I HATE labels because we are all different. The biggy for me is that if we are going to take someones liberty (or life) away from them, then we need to be absolutely certain. I just do not have enough information at the moment to condemn anyone. I am forever haunted by a UK case, Sally Clarke (RIP)- wrongful conviction - and it destroyed her and her families lives.

Exactly! I'm worried he won't get a fair trial with all the publicity surrounding this case.

 

[Trinket78]

I'm not sure why the topic would be off limits. The DA has asked for CW's prints. The ME may have discovered old bruising on the children indicative of child abuse. MBP is a form of child abuse and CW has accused SW of harming the children. JMO

This is a complete guess but when I read about the fingerprints/palm size etc, I thought about hand size. There is a difference between the size of a women’s hand vs the size of a mans.

 

[MyBelle]

When did CW accuse SW of harming the children?

It's in the arrest affidavit.

 

[Thepoet]

Everyone having the same point of view and saying the same thing.

I thought it was part of a recording studio where could get wah-wah and reverb. ; l

 

[NuttMegg]

It's in the arrest affidavit.

Yes, I thought you might be referring to something he said while they were married. Before he killed her.

 

[Asevario]

Well for one thing, ppl came on yesterday, no holds barred, to detail all the physical/psychological maladies that SW might have had or was suffering from. Yet no one came back with CW possibly having early onset Alzheimers, a problem with his prostrate, depression due to having pre type II diabetes, worsening eye sight, heart arrhythmias, depression at being a nebish, or any other psychological ailment. It just seemed a little one sided to me.

I think it’s because we don’t have much to go on in respect to CW’s SM presence, since he deleted it recently. If he still had a page on something as open as Shanann’s was, we would definitely have to opportunity to form opinions on him. But we only have to go off of where we can see both of them from her SM.

Let me go ahead and post a disclaimer.... I understand he confessed to strangling his pregnant wife, I understand that he admitted to dropping those precious babies in oil tanks, i am on the fence about some of the details in this case up to and including motive, COD, etc. IMO there are so many angles, and I personally want to examine them all.

 

[Nikynoo]

Interesting. I've been on some good cases on WS with a few posters with all types of legal specialisms, I don't follow many trials on here, even though I've been registered for probably five years now.
Not certain I would follow this case during the trial now.

I'm interested in comparative opinions so if the ethics part is too hot for here can you say anything on the jury selection process? What you found interesting.

The selection process was quite quick (half a day), but this wasn't a high profile case. What I did find alarming, was a statment made by one of the potential jurors, which in the UK (if we had civil juries) would have meant the whole jury pool being dismissed and starting again. This didn't happen in our case and I think it actually prejudiced the jury decision, because they heard the statement from their peers. All in all, it was really weird!

 

[Homeschool Mom]

I don’t want to justify the affair. Do I think either of them experienced real love in their marriage? No but that’s my opinion. To the other question, I do think it’s possible. I’ve heard conflicting info on who really wanted another baby so I can’t say that one for sure.

One thing I’ve wondered: If Shanann has so many health issues, and children with heath issues, numerous debt/money problems and a tense marriage, why would either of them think it wise to have another child at that time? After what we’ve learned about their family situation, I find it highly unbeleiveable that Chris was begging for another child. Especially if he was already engaged in an affair or at the very least, weeks away from starting one. A man doesn’t go from wanting a child with his wife to committing adultery in the span of a few months. Do you believe it’s possible that Shannan felt the marriage slipping away and got pregnant on purpose to “keep” him? This scenario would put a lot of the peices of the puzzle together.

 

[BingoBongo]

Yes. I agree! There is nothing, as I've stated, in either of their pasts like domestic violence, drug abuse, criminal histories, etc.

And everyone who spoke to the media described CW as a great father. Wonderful husband. Good friend.

But this fits precisely with many family annihilator cases. Over and over we see these cases of seemingly wonderful men (usually) who destroy their families and we are all stunned and can't understand why.

But it's pretty universal that in these cases, it isn't the behavior or character of the dead that explain why. It's the character of the murderer.

They typically have a secret life that belies their image of perfection. There are often "triggers" such as financial burdens, unwanted pregnancies and affairs.

But the most universal factor from what I've read and seen in the annihilators who conceal the murders and/or try to blame others is a narcissistic terror of their mask of perfection slipping. They are in dread of anyone seeing them as less than perfect.

Many of these people we later discover have sort of shadow personalities. Subsumed identities that often stem from disordered families of origin, parents with personality disorders and issues of deep enmeshment. Already annihilated themselves by families who could not allow them to have an independent or imperfect identity.

These were perfect little boys and young men. Never got into the slightest trouble that many young people do. Not a lot of close, friendships or deep romantic relationships prior to the one with the dead. Exceedingly charming and close with their families of origin. Often very quiet.

Many married women who were more outgoing. Upstaged them. They're used to that.

Desires that betray the image of perfection, or anything that could mark them as a bad husband or father- like leaving a pregnant wife- they can't bring themselves to do such a thing.

Some examples include Neil Entwistle and scott Peterson who apparently both had psychically (as in of the psyche) annihilating mothers. Their precious babies could do no wrong. Entwistle's mother kept a tight reign on her boys, not allowing them to play with others, but playing "catch" with them in her back yard well into their teens.

Peterson's mom disliked Laci and seemed to be unable to accept anything less than charming, smiling perfection in her son.
(I read a great psychological expose about him and his family).

They were vicious in their defense of their golden boys after arrest.

Chris Coleman's horrid parents were the same. And who can forget Josh Powell's disturbed father and the gothic nightmare of their family history.

It fits a pattern.

These are people expected to be and who were displayed as perfect and unable to express feelings that veered from that. Which is what I've read can create narcissism.

They often pick strong, no nonsense, assertive wives. Likely because they are used being overshadowed.

It's as if their identities don't exist. They're afraid to express anything because anything less than perfection exposed them in the past to narcissistic rage on the part of enmeshed, personality disordered guardians.

So they hide any negative feelings or natural desires which fester and become twisted.

That's been the "why" in almost all similar, past cases. A narcissistic panic at the mask slipping. A desire to be free. An annihilated identity and inability to express their true feelings.

An annihilation of their true selves thus becomes an annihilation of their family.

I think it's horribly disturbing yet fascinating.

Yes, narcissistic rage, usually when the mask begins to fall, coupled with sociopathy. Again, not an expert, just a lot of life experience.

 

[katydid23]

what is an echo chamber?

An echo chamber means that if everyone totally agrees, then you are just hearing the same thing , like an echo.

Like if it was just those who felt CW was guilty on this thread, it would be like an 'echo' ---GUILTY GUILTY...

Don't know if I explained it right...lol

 

[cottonweaver]

I too am in this boat. I need more information. I HATE labels because we are all different. The biggy for me is that if we are going to take someones liberty (or life) away from them, then we need to be absolutely certain. I just do not have enough information at the moment to condemn anyone. I am forever haunted by a UK case, Sally Clarke (RIP)- wrongful conviction - and it destroyed her and her families lives.

Yes flawed expert testimony at trial which the Pros pathologist had actually known about, failures of the legal system. She had a terrible time in jail didn't she, before the conviction was overturned, as an ex"attorney" and her father having been in LE. Never recovered, had lost two children to no fault of her own and drank herself to death.

 

[MsBetsy]

Which is exactly what I said. Not I but others have expressed they don't feel able to share their observations. I can only speak for myself and can't force others who are reluctant to do so.

I was responding to your saying that you would like to discuss certain things but are stopped in your tracks. I thought you were implying you were hesitant.

 

[katydid23]

One thing I’ve wondered: If Shanann has so many health issues, and children with heath issues, numerous debt/money problems and a tense marriage, why would either of them think it wise to have another child at that time? After what we’ve learned about their family situation, I find it highly unbeleiveable that Chris was begging for another child. Especially if he was already engaged in an affair or at the very least, weeks away from starting one. A man doesn’t go from wanting a child with his wife to committing adultery in the span of a few months. Do you believe it’s possible that Shannan felt the marriage slipping away and got pregnant on purpose to “keep” him? This scenario would put a lot of the peices of the puzzle together.

I think it might have been because they had 2 girls, and maybe one or both, really wanted a boy?

 

[Nikynoo]

An echo chamber means that if everyone totally agrees, then you are just hearing the same thing , like an echo.

Like if it was just those who felt CW was guilty on this thread, it would be like an 'echo' ---GUILTY GUILTY...

Don't know if I explained it right...lol

I dont think that would be the correct forum for strategy - you need to be able to think outside the box

 

[Nikynoo]

Yes flawed expert testimony at trial which the Pros pathologist had actually known about, failures of the legal system. She had a terrible time in jail didn't she, before the conviction was overturned, as an ex"attorney" and her father having been in LE. Never recovered, had lost two children to no fault of her own and drank herself to death.

Yes, I think it was especially hard for her because she had faith in the legal system, being in it, and it let her down. Very, very sad for her and her family.

 

[Trinket78]

One thing I’ve wondered: If Shanann has so many health issues, and children with heath issues, numerous debt/money problems and a tense marriage, why would either of them think it wise to have another child at that time? After what we’ve learned about their family situation, I find it highly unbeleiveable that Chris was begging for another child. Especially if he was already engaged in an affair or at the very least, weeks away from starting one. A man doesn’t go from wanting a child with his wife to committing adultery in the span of a few months. Do you believe it’s possible that Shannan felt the marriage slipping away and got pregnant on purpose to “keep” him? This scenario would put a lot of the peices of the puzzle together.

I think that is very likely.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think it might have been because they had 2 girls, and maybe one or both, really wanted a boy?

On her FB Shanann did say she wanted 5 or more kids so am guessing that she had always wanted a big family. From what I have seen, am guessing ( JMO) that was a dream of hers from being quite young.

 

[NuttMegg]

I think that is very likely.

Do you know that he had asked for a separation before she got pregnant?

 

[Gardenista]

A man doesn’t go from wanting a child with his wife to committing adultery in the span of a few months. Do you believe it’s possible that Shannan felt the marriage slipping away and got pregnant on purpose to “keep” him? This scenario would put a lot of the peices of the puzzle together.

Disagree. I have a friend who this happened to and I believe someone on this thread said it happened to her.

 

[MyBelle]

That's why I said " may" be. I know for sure the peanuts are and thought the topic of Munchausen by proxy was too. You can check back in the thread. At any rate, there is no evidence that SW intentionally harmed the children or faked any diseases. Apparently all are legitimate illnesses. Jmo

I wasn't aware that peanuts are off topic. The fact that CW told police he saw SW strangling CeCe is on the arrest affidavit. I think medical records, etc., will be introduced at trial. JMO