CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[gitana1]

I've been reading this thread for several days now and finally decided to join the discussion when I had to admit I was hooked!

This case is fascinating. I cannot imagine going through what Morgan and her family have gone through. So sad and my heart goes out to them.

I, too, am shocked that given the circumstances leading up to Morgan's death, and the fact that she was young, healthy, and except for the stalking seemed to have everything to live for, the death was not straight away examined as a possible murder. One of my relatives committed suicide years ago by hanging himself, and even though his COD and the self-inflicted nature of it were obvious, his immediate family all were questioned thoroughly before his death was ruled a suicide.

I realize that there were no signs of forced entry. But from what I am learning about stalkers and stalking through this case, wouldn't that be precisely the M.O. of this stalker? He got a charge, it seems, by remaining unseen. My theory is that he is someone nobody has thought of, a stranger or possibly someone who knew Morgan directly or indirectly, who reveled in the parents' finger-pointing at the "alphabet kids" and E while he worked his evil in the shadows, unknown.

And given, according to Morgan's mom in the blog, there is ample reason to suspect this perp entered their home numerous times and leaving no trace, why could he not have done so the night Morgan died? By then, if he had been in the house before, he would have known exactly how to enter the home and move about the rooms and hallways in stealth. He wouldn't necessarily have needed to enter Morgan's room through her window.

I have a theory, also, that when he entered the home those many times before (supposedly), he was sure to befriend all of the animals so that they would not bark or otherwise alert the family that he was intruding.

Lastly, it seems to me that the manner in which he killed Morgan, if indeed he did, fits his stealth M.O., and he is probably loving how he has gotten so many people spinning in circles around the question of whether Morgan's death was suicide, or murder.

All just my own speculation, based on what I've been reading here and on Morgan's mom's blog.

:fireworks::welcome::fireworks:

BBM.

It appears that is was straight away investigated as murder:

Garfield County Sheriff Lou Vallario told CBS4 his department spent a lot of time working on the case, and that it will remain closed.

“We investigate every death we come across as a homicide and then again we let the facts and the evidence to take us where it’s going to take us,” he said. “We have no reasonable suspicion, let alone probable cause that we have any suspect.”

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/09/07/parents-say-daughter-was-murdered-want-investigation-reopened/

Just wanted to add to the discussion that Russell Williams, the Canadian who once was ranked very high in the military, entered one particular house 9 times during his time of B & E's (stealing women's underwear)and prior to murdering two women in Ontario.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/08/18/...eak-in-at-russell-williamss-cottage-in-tweed/

Yes, but there is a big difference. At the point Morgan died, the family was exceedingly, hyper vigilant, had motion sensor lights and cameras around the house and had called the police on numerous occasions. This Russell Williams guy broke into various women's homes, it appears mostly one time except one person. And it also appears that the only way we know he broke into that one person's home nine times is because he confessed, not because the victim noticed.

So what I'm saying is that it would be hard to break into a home where people are hyper vigilant and expecting it.

I don't know anything about medicine.

How much was in her system, and how much would that mean in liquid or powder form?

How soon would that amount knock you out?

If she was given it earlier in the day, okay, I can see that, but would she still be up chatting with dad?

If someone was in the house, I'm running into problems figuring that out. If someone came in her room she would have screamed. Mom and Dad would have heard that for sure. If they didn't get there until she was asleep, could you inject without waking or would it just make you pass out right away? I see no way to get anything down anyone's throat at night without them choking, waking, screaming. Maybe I am overlooking methods.

Some people have suggested that Morgan was drugged surreptitiously by her stalker who followed her to a party or something, or actually arranged in some inexplicable way for her to receive a product or food that had been tampered with and placed in a store waiting for her to purchase.

Then, once she was drugged, he stealthily broke in and finished the job.

One of mom's recent responses on the blog....Morgan had the equivalent of 7900 mg in her system but the pills she was prescribed were 25 mg. I may have the numbers wrong, feel free to correct me, but that's a ton of pills to not have any undigested in her stomach.

Edited to add:
the blog poster did have the units wrong...it was 7900 ng/mL.

Not if they were ground up and swallowed with liquid.

 

[Herding Cats]

And there was Nortriptyline (Pamadal) at 2833 nanograms too.

A quick read of nortrip indicates that it should NOT be used together with ami. The bit I read gave 135 medications not to use Nortrip with, or, if using together, it would need close monitoring.

I doubt there was an rx for nortrip...most Drs would not rx those together unless there was a close monitoring system in place.

Add to that the flexeril (again, not rx'd), and you have some serious questions about where those drugs (in those amounts) came from.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[gitana1]

I'm a newbie (just registered today) and I've been following this case both on WS and the MJI blog. I have to say this is a very fascinating and addicting site. I'm very impressed with the insight and skills of everyone here.

I just wanted to add my two cents on this point:


Information on the toxic levels of amitryptaline can be found here:
http://www.globalrph.com/labs_drug_levels.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003430.htm

And, according to the sites above 500ng/mL is a toxic level of ami. Therefore, she did have toxic levels in her blood.

***

Thanks again for letting me register and chime in. I'm very happy to be here.

:fireworks2::welcome4::fireworks2:

I am worthless when it comes to math. I hope you all can come to some sort of consensus regarding the does found in Morgan's body and whether it was lethal and then explain it to dumb people like me!!

 

[Confusion]

I wonder if the dose of amitriptyline would have actually killed her if it weren't for other things in ther system. It's very possible that it was given to her (in whatever form) more to cause a weird reaction than to kill her. Her mother said that there were other things in her system besides that and the Flexeril, but they could run any more tests to clarify what it was. She also said that Morgan had told her father that night that she was coming down with a cold.

Both Flexeril and many cold medications interact poorly with amitriptyline and intensify the effects. If she was somehow given the amitriptyline first, and then took a cold pill and a Flexeril someone had given her to help her sleep, would that be enough to kill her? If the other drugs caused her to die fairly quickly, would it appear in the basic tests that she had actually taken more amitriptyline than she really had? I also know that some oral contraceptives are dangerous when taken with it (I know someone whose pharmacist caught her doctor's error before her prescriptions were filled and said the combination could have killed her); was she taking anything for that?

 

[concernedmother]

Nortriptyline is also an antidepressent?

 

[concernedmother]

A quick read of nortrip indicates that it should NOT be used together with ami. The bit I read gave 135 medications not to use Nortrip with, or, if using together, it would need close monitoring.

I doubt there was an rx for nortrip...most Drs would not rx those together unless there was a close monitoring system in place.

Add to that the flexeril (again, not rx'd), and you have some serious questions about where those drugs (in those amounts) came from.

Best-
Herding Cats

Maybe she was stockpiling pills from other people?
Could it be a cocktail effect of combining these drugs?

 

[gitana1]

I think it is noteworthy that both nortryptiline and amytriptiline (SP?) are used to treat depression.

I also found this about Flexeril:

What is FlexerilFlexeril has active ingredients of cyclobenzaprine hydrochloride. It is used in muscle spasms, back pain - low, muscle aches, pain, muscle injury. Common side effects of Flexeril include pain, stress and anxiety, nausea, depression, fatigue.
On Aug, 21, 2012: 12,614 people reported to have side effects when taking Flexeril. Among them, 219 people (1.74%) have Suicide Attempt.

http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/flexeril/suicide+attempt

Here's more detailed stats, charts, etc. on Flexeril and suicide, the ages, genders of those who committed suicide while on the drug and comments from people who were suicidal when taking it: http://www.druginformer.com/search/side_effect_details/flexeril/completed+suicide.html

Finally, you can find numerous articles about the use of Flexeril to commit suicide (not as the cause, but as the method).

I think this information is something that must be considered here.

 

[gitana1]

Nortriptyline is also an antidepressent?

Yes, it is. I was just posting about that.

I think it is a possibility that Morgan may have had medical treatment that she kept from her mother.

 

[Herding Cats]

Nortriptyline is also an antidepressent?

Yes, it's a tricyclic antidepressant.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[concernedmother]

It is possible she was asking people if they had anything to help her sleep and they were giving her pills -- "Here. Try this." Got to reconsider my horse farm theory now. Not as sure about it.

 

[21merc7]

I think it is noteworthy that both nortryptiline and amytriptiline (SP?) are used to treat depression.

I also found this about Flexeril:

http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/flexeril/suicide+attempt

Here's more detailed stats, charts, etc. on Flexeril and suicide, the ages, genders of those who committed suicide while on the drug and comments from people who were suicidal when taking it: http://www.druginformer.com/search/side_effect_details/flexeril/completed+suicide.html

Finally, you can find numerous articles about the use of Flexeril to commit suicide (not as the cause, but as the method).

I think this information is something that must be considered here.

Just a quick look at the suicidal use of flexeril, it is interesting to note that most of them state "unknown" for how it was taken. Only a few say "orally".

ETA: Looking further and reading the comments, it seems most think that flexeril made them suicidal. We don't know if Morgan was taking this regularly or if this was just for this one occasion though.

 

[Confusion]

It is possible she was asking people if they had anything to help her sleep and they were giving her pills -- "Here. Try this." Got to reconsider my horse farm theory now. Not as sure about it.

The problem is that there don't appear to have been any pills, or pill fragments, in her stomache. Everything would have to have been in liquid form or in her system long enough to be completely dissolved. If she took all the pills at once, she would probably have died before that happened. If she took them at intervals, there would probably have been obvious signs that she'd taken something.

 

[gitana1]

Just a quick look at the suicidal use of flexeril, it is interesting to note that most of them state "unknown" for how it was taken. Only a few say "orally".

ETA: Looking further and reading the comments, it seems most think that flexeril made them suicidal. We don't know if Morgan was taking this regularly or if this was just for this one occasion though.

Yes, and to be fair, we don't know that it was ever prescribed to her or given to her upon request.

But in light of many things, I am trying to look at various angles, especially the most logical ones.

 

[gitana1]

The problem is that there don't appear to have been any pills, or pill fragments, in her stomache. Everything would have to have been in liquid form or in her system long enough to be completely dissolved. If she took all the pills at once, she would probably have died before that happened. If she took them at intervals, there would probably have been obvious signs that she'd taken something.

Unless she crushed them up, stirred them into a drink and guzzled it all down.

 

[21merc7]

I wonder if the dose of amitriptyline would have actually killed her if it weren't for other things in ther system. It's very possible that it was given to her (in whatever form) more to cause a weird reaction than to kill her. Her mother said that there were other things in her system besides that and the Flexeril, but they could run any more tests to clarify what it was. She also said that Morgan had told her father that night that she was coming down with a cold.

Both Flexeril and many cold medications interact poorly with amitriptyline and intensify the effects. If she was somehow given the amitriptyline first, and then took a cold pill and a Flexeril someone had given her to help her sleep, would that be enough to kill her? If the other drugs caused her to die fairly quickly, would it appear in the basic tests that she had actually taken more amitriptyline than she really had? I also know that some oral contraceptives are dangerous when taken with it (I know someone whose pharmacist caught her doctor's error before her prescriptions were filled and said the combination could have killed her); was she taking anything for that?

BBM

Hmm, would cough/cold syrup disguise or hide the taste of the A named drug? Would it test as "other compound"?

Although with my new theory, I don't think she had a cold at all, that is how she explained being down and a bit out if it away. But it is still possible someone else gave her the meds, this could be a method.

 

[Confusion]

Just a quick look at the suicidal use of flexeril, it is interesting to note that most of them state "unknown" for how it was taken. Only a few say "orally".

ETA: Looking further and reading the comments, it seems most think that flexeril made them suicidal. We don't know if Morgan was taking this regularly or if this was just for this one occasion though.

I used them for quite a while after a car accident for muscle spasms (I had torn ligaments in my neck, and a dislocated shoulder and hip.) They were pills; the dose I was on made me a bit tired during the day, but didn't knock me out. It's possible that someone gave her one or two because she was so stressed that her muscles were tensing up and causing pain. They could have been taken while she was still out, and pretty well absorbed before she went to bed. The same thing with any cold pill she may have taken.

It just seems like, if something was given to her unknowingly and/or unwillingly, it would have to be a liquid form of the amitriptyline, and after she was home. I'm curious to know if she had something she'd usually drink at night before going to bed. The other possibility is that since she always had to be home so early, maybe she sometimes had a friend come over for a while after the parents were sleeping. Maybe it's just me, but I know I would have gone crazy having to be home by 9-10:00 with nobody but pets to talk to because everybody else was sleeping. Unfortunately, if she did, it would have to be someone she trusted but shouldn't have.

 

[21merc7]

Confusion, that is what I was trying to ask before.

How long would it take for that much Ami to knock you out?

 

[Confusion]

I don't know for sure, but I'd guess it would be less than an hour. I once OD'd on a different tricyclic antidepression, although at a smaller dose than what she seems to have had, and I was pretty well out of it within 45 minutes. My brother took me to the ER right away, and even being treated quickly, I was in ICU for a couple days.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

I have nothing to add other than I'm impressed with everyone's mathgician skills!!

 

[rollinginit]

Has anybody read the new comments at the bottom of the newspaper article from the Denver article?

http://neighbors.denverpost.com/vie...id=0c18bb0f05b8121eb77816676b4a6d9a&p=2657574