CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #3

[JBean]

Actually 7900 ng/mL converts to 7.9 mg/L.

here is a handy dandy converter to support.

http://www.convert-measurement-units.com/conversion-calculator.php?type=density

 

[Herding Cats]

Last post for the night.

You have to factor in distribution, first pass absorption, and a few other things I'm forgetting at the moment.

Further, when you're considering the pill aspect, you have to take into account that ami is only about 30% bioavailable, meaning that only 30% of the drug in the pill will be absorbed into the system in the first place.

It's not a linear progression, and it's not a straight conversion math issue.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Confusion]

Actually 7900 ng/mL converts to 7.9 mg/L.

---nevermind, I was using micrograms, not nangrams. I think I should get some sleep tonight. I knew someone would correct me!

Further, when you're considering the pill aspect, you have to take into account that ami is only about 30% bioavailable, meaning that only 30% of the drug in the pill will be absorbed into the system in the first place.

Thanks, at least my 25% guess was fairly close.

 

[mysterygirl]

I wonder why two dogs in the house wouldn't bark at a stranger in the house? I know Morgan's mom said the night she died, they were out and the dogs were locked up..and the stalker could have come in and hid until they got home. But after getting home..i'm sure they would have let the dogs back out...wouldn't they bark at someone hideing in the house?

Perhaps but mom also said they could have come in and left, leaving one of the sliding glass doors open for later.

This seems more likely to me.

They never checked those doors because they stayed locked.

It also bothers me that the cop found a door unlocked in the empty house next door. It's odd. (this happened much earlier in time of course)

 

[mysterygirl]

I think it is worth pointing out that Morgan's earlier medical history, according to this report prepared for the family, included the possibility of intermittant porphyria. Among the symptoms she was reported to have had included "cognitive disorders". If you want to know what cognitive disorders are, read Cognitive disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In the context of porphyria this would mean delusional and paranoid behaviour. Depression is also associated with porphyria. If she was prescribed amytriptyline (for depression) and they considered porphyria, then those are the symtoms she would have been showing.

So, there is this debate about this stalker. But, even though the family knew about this stalker for quite some time, and presumably took steps to protect and/or monitor the home, they never actually saw him/her, or obtained conclusive evidence. We need to consider the possibility that this stalker is not real, but rather a recurrence of Morgan's previous condition. To be real and to commit a stealth murder in her bedroom, this stalker would have had to have intimate knowledge of the home and all the precautions they were taking to be able to evade detection, and that does not seem realistic. The only way for that to be possible is if the stalker either lived in the house or was very closely associated with the family, it doesn't seem plausible otherwise.

Regarding Morgan's death itself. The primary cause of death was an overdose of a drug that she had previously been prescribed and which she apparently actually had. This pretty much rules murder out IMO since no one outside the immediate family would know those sorts of details, and it would be mind boggling for a stranger to choose such a bizarre method of murder through sheer coincidence. The other option suggested was suicide. The family thinks this cannot be, but considering her past medical record and the sorts of drugs she had previously been prescribed (and apparently still had) it is absolutely a real possibility. Lastly there is another option that most people don't seem to be considering, that involves neither murder nor suicide. She may very well have been self-medicating (this is very common in the internet age) and accidently overdosed herself.

Actually we know the mom says she saw him on the front porch, in a hoodie if I remember correctly. And then there are the camera shots.....we've seen one and supposedly there are more.

You also have to consider that even if Morgan was paranoid, you have more than one person noticing things that went on in the house.

Self medication has been considered. It's the amount and questionable oral route that doesn't make sense.

We know a lot about the stalking so far but not about the actual death.

I know some on here don't believe any of it and say it's a grieving mother. But I'm going on the assumption that it is true until proven otherwise because it will help the family with ideas etc......

I'll say it again. Even if Morgan's death was accidental or from natural causes related to stress/depressed immune system etc.......I truly believe this family was tormented and justice needs to be served.

People capable of this evil don't just quit. I also find it interesting that other episodes of stalking were taking place in that locale with little public knowledge.

 

[MelissaDawn]

I'm sure someone will correct me if my math is wrong, but I think the amount she took has been understated. 7900 ng/ml is actually equivalent to 7900 mg/L. Since the average human body has about 5-6 L of blood in it, that would be equal to about 39.5-47.4 gm, and that is just what is in her blood. Maybe 25% of what is taken orally ends up in your blood system (most you get rid of in urine), and some has also already been broken down into nortriptyline. Even just going with the 39.5 gm, with 100 mg pills (hers were actually 25 mg, she started at 10mg), that would be about 395 pills. If crushed and added to water, it would take an awful lot if you didn't want to gag on the taste.

Again, I absolutely suck at math and it makes my head hurt, so I have no doubt I'm wrong - I'm just trying to understand. I'm confused with the first conversion, as using this converter: http://www.convert-measurement-units.com/conversion-calculator.php?type=density I entered 7909 ng/ml and selected to convert to mg/l and it showed 7.909 mg/l, not 7909 mg/l. A matter of a decimal point, but the original conversion makes no sense because it's not actually converting anything if the answer is the same, right?

The next one I'm confused about is if we just converted it to milligrams per liter - that would mean 7.909 milligrams x 5 liters would actually equal 39.54 milligrams rather than grams, wouldn't it? This is probably where my mistake is, I probably just need the extra step how we got from milligrams to grams explained to me. Now, 39.54 milligrams in her system wouldn't be a lethal dose, however, if only 30% enters the blood stream (arrrrgh, percentages!), then wouldn't that mean, ugh, I'm going to use 25% because 1/4 is easier for me - if 25% were in her blood that would mean the total actual dose would be around 158 mg, which divided by 25 mg pills would actually be slightly over 6 pills. That's figuring 5% under the actual 30% because my math skills suck, and I didn't add in the amitriptyline that was already broken down to nortriptyline, but would imagine that would bump the total number of pills up by anywhere from 1 to 3 maybe? Still only equaling a total of possibly up to 10 actual pills of 25 mg of amitriptyline.

Ah, there it is, I think I just had a brain aneurysm. :banghead:

Anyway, I'm totally not trying to fight anyone over this, I just love to learn and this is really confusing me but I'm really trying hard to understand.

 

[gitana1]

Grace doesn't do that when she's alarmed. She places her body between me and whatever is upsetting her, and makes sure that I do not get there. It's rather interesting. She "herds" me away, but by using her size, not her voice. She's done this several times. She has also "pushed" someone off me by inserting her bulk and swinging around so that the bad guy (in this case, a lady) had to step back and away from me. She never barked, whined, or even sniffed.

And now that I don't pen her at night, she lays in the doorway of my bedroom...all night long. Cats jumping over her, or Romi traipsing around won't make her move. She just lays there, holding down the floor. If I was approached in my own house, I am pretty sure that Gracie would take good care of me. But she's not penned or enclosed, and so can do that.

Newfs are an unusual breed.


Did Mrs. Ingram know this? *we* know this. You, as a lawyer, know this. But did she? I've seen reference to her not knowing she could do this...and maybe she's going to try now. Shoot, not everyone has the knowledge we do. We have to allow that to be real. We CAN'T assume just because *we* know it, everyone must. It's not the way things go.


<modsnip> Morgan died in December 2011. Not even 10 months ago. Not TWO YEARS.

<modsnip>

(Snipped by me...).

I'm going to take a bit of a break. As I've said in an earlier post, I'm having a hard time physically right now, and it's wearing on me.

I am firmly in support of the mother, and believe, as I've said, that there is far more evidence which should have had an investigation attached to it than not. Was Morgan murdered? I don't know. But I know that I believe that it is far more likely that she was murdered than that she intentionally suicided...

Best-
Herding Cats

My apologies. I do know when Morgan died. I'm tired and was typing fast.

And yes, she knows. Because its clear she reads here, her husband posts here, I've explained that three times, any attorney worth their salt would advise her of that fact and a woman sophisticated to get an opinion letter from the new coroner, and to fight tirelessly for the truth, would have at least inquired as to the process or possibility of getting the reports.

I hope you feel better soon it doesn't sound fun.

 

[rollinginit]

rollinginit,

I don't think everyone does the research before taking pills to die. If it makes you sleep, you die in your sleep, right?

I know junkies do not know they are going to asphyxiate. They wouldn't o.d. on it if they did. Saved one that way. I looked it up.

That's very true. I know somebody broke into my husband's truck many years ago and stole his Metformin and his change. My hubby was confused as to why somebody would steal his diabetic meds.
Yep, pretty sure they were in for a let down :floorlaugh:

Ya know, I shouldnt be shocked by anything on the Internet but I just have to
Say this wiki article definitely shocked me.

That was very scary.:what::what:

 

[rollinginit]

I responded to you earlier post. Only 6% of ami OD victims suffer any seizures at all. Most just slip into a coma. According to your link.

RSBM

Yes, I did read your earlier post. I did see the stats of 6%. There is no way to know if M was one of the 6% or not (at this point). I was just throwing a suggestion out there.

 

[NancyA]

My apologies. I do know when Morgan died. I'm tired and was typing fast.

And yes, she knows. Because its clear she reads here, her husband posts here, I've explained that three times, any attorney worth their salt would advise her of that fact and a woman sophisticated to get an opinion letter from the new coroner, and to fight tirelessly for the truth, would have at least inquired as to the process or possibility of getting the reports.

I hope you feel better soon it doesn't sound fun.

BBM. I agree, I think she does know, and I believe as I've believed the whole time I've been reading that blog, she is desperate for answers but conversely maybe doesn't want or isn't ready to accept any official answers that might suggest M was not murdered. Someone (sorry, I'm catching up I didn't note who and now can't find it) noted upthread her repetition of phrases like 'date rape drugs' and 'felony stalking', it's like the more she says them the more it reinforces her conviction that M was murdered. I've seen many comments on the blog offering suggestions and advice and she's very quick to say she'll look into these things, maybe she does, but I think probably not.

To me it's a bit like when we know in our hearts we did really badly on a test but as long as we don't open the envelope containing the results we can cling to the belief that we somehow scraped a pass. As long as we remind ourselves solely of the few questions we know we got right we can deflect the many we know we got wrong. We want to know but we don't want to know. I think it's the same with the police reports she wants them to contain evidence of the stalker and that her daughter was murdered but maybe she fears/knows deep down they don't.

ETA found the poster I referenced, it was AbbeyR - great post, thanks!

 

[21merc7]

Here's what the parents can do since they think LE, ME, and everyone else is incompetent and/or holds a personal grudge.

Get all of the paper work (including all police reports and info, autopsy, toxicology, ME reports) and video images, any photos, the phone and texts, everything you think shows something. (Make copies for yourself of course.) Take them to your State Attorney General's Office, schedule an appointment first please. Discuss your issues, tell them of the incompetence, tell them you suspect murder. Be sure you have all of your evidence and paper work in order please. IF, the AG's Office sees any need to reopen the case, and/or take a look into alleged incompetence, you will finally have a start on something.

You must make the effort to get copies of EVERYTHING! You must make cd versions of images and videos to bring with you. Check to be sure you got the cd's copied correctly so that they play for the AG before you get there. Half information, left out info, non-working cd's will get you nowhere. They will not look at it.

 

[21merc7]

BBM. I agree, I think she does know, and I believe as I've believed the whole time I've been reading that blog, she is desperate for answers but conversely maybe doesn't want or isn't ready to accept any official answers that might suggest M was not murdered. Someone (sorry, I'm catching up I didn't note who and now can't find it) noted upthread her repetition of phrases like 'date rape drugs', it's like the more she says them the more it reinforces her conviction that M was murdered. I've seen many comments on the blog offering suggestions and advice and she's very quick to say she'll look into these things, maybe she does, but I think probably not.

To me it's a bit like when we know in our hearts we did really badly on a test but as long as we don't open the envelope containing the results we can cling to the belief that we somehow scraped a pass. As long as we remind ourselves solely of the few questions we know we got right we can deflect the many we know we got wrong. We want to know but we don't want to know. I think it's the same with the police reports she wants them to contain evidence of the stalker and that her daughter was murdered but maybe she fears/knows deep down they don't.

It was AbbyR and I agree with you both. When everything is just too much to bother with, other than posting to a blog, you subconsciously already know you are not accepting the truth. I also think the blog has now just become everything we post as ideas of ways it could be, rather than anything that ever did happen. That seems to now be lost.

 

[Tugela]

<modsnip>

Morgan was on a low dose of amitriptyline for migraine and stomach symptoms (abdominal migraine) from the CO poisoning at age 12 that she discontinued 2 years before her death. She had a massive amount of amitriptyline in her system at autopsy....reportedly among the largest values recorded. The low dose old supply of pills would not have accounted for the amount of drug in her system at death...she would have had to have swallowed 100 25 mg ami pills...with none of the pill fragments found in her stomach. The other two drugs, flexoril (muscle relaxant) and a sedative have been characterized by some as potential date rape drugs. These were not found in the home.

Nortriptyline is the active metabolite of amitriptyline. Every article on amitriptyline overdose has patients with both amitriptyline and a lesser amount of nortriptyline in their systems. The fact that her amitriptyline more than doubled the nortriptyline means that it was an acute overdose and not chronic dosing. This actually validates what mom has told us that she was not currently taking ami at the time of her death.

There were no bottles, wrappers, syringes, mixing materials, etc. found for these drugs with Morgan's body despite the fact that the consultant pathologist believed her death was rapid (within 30 minutes). Cause of death was ami overdose, but no ami pill fragments in her stomach (http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=920).

When I did some calculations on the last thread, her dose of ami would be in the ballpark of 20 or more of the largest pills manufactured (150 mg). Her dose exceeded the lethal dose by several fold and her death was reportedly rapid, so where are the pill fragments? This drug would have actually slowed down the digestive system, so any suicide theory really needs to explain this.

The family was contacted by two veterinarians in the area who said they used to keep transdermal patches for amitriptyline for horses unsecured in their facilities but would now be securing them.

She absolutely did not swallow a few pills with a glass of water and go to sleep.:banghead:

It's easy to say someone committed suicide, but not easy to explain her lab results. <modsnip>

Here's info from the blog:
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1137

Delivery of 2.5-3 g of drug through a transdermal patch isnt going to happen, it is not practical. Whatever she ingested must have been oral for that amount. Not to mention that it would have taken a considerable length of time to absorb so much drug through that route - again not consistent with an acute response. Systemic delivery through transdermal absorbtion is poor compared to oral. The main advantage of transdermal delivery is that you can do it over a prolonged period.

You are assuming that she was using her old supply of the drug. It is more likely that she got the drug from another source. She may have been using the higher strength tablets (possibly not realizing that they were in fact a different strength). Alternatively, she may have been using the pure compound (FYI, it costs about $7.50 per gram according to drugbank.ca). Drinking a solution of 2-3 g isn't that hard since it would dissolve in a glass of water. And if you didn't know that the usual tablet is mostly other stuff you could quickly be in a whole lot of trouble, since you would be taking a lot more than you would think you were taking. Especially if you were used to using the 10 mg tablets for example, which I assume is the form she would have been using as a child. The commercial tablet sizes are available from 10 mg doses all the way up to 150 mg. It is also available in solution form, which is used for injection but I guess someone could swallow as well.

Other points, absorbtion is relatively fast, with maximum uptake at about 2 hours. She was probably alive a lot longer than 30 minutes after taking it, otherwise they would have found it in her stomach as well. The 30 minutes is probably your estimated survival time at that drug level, not how long it takes to achieve that level.

 

[rollinginit]

It was AbbyR and I agree with you both. When everything is just too much to bother with, other than posting to a blog, you subconsciously already know you are not accepting the truth. I also think the blog has now just become everything we post as ideas of ways it could be, rather than anything that ever did happen. That seems to now be lost.

I'm really not sure why people are questioning the mom's blog posts now? I think most everybody said on here they wanted her to post different, post stuff faster, speed things up, put in this, answer this, or explain that. Even Tricia asked her if she would so mom could GET some help from the WSers. People even wanted a parent to post here....and they did.

The mom, IMO, has been more than accommodating to everybody's request. Sorry, I just don't understand. I really, really don't.

JMO

 

[nursebeeme]

lillygator- Morgan's father is a member here and has answered some of our questions.

TO all:
As always here on WS, you are welcome to challenge the information but always be careful not to cross the line of bashing the family. Its a fine line but we all should take care not to cross.
Thanks

just bumping this up...

re: challenging the information.

There will always be different opinions here at websleuths and they are all welcome as long as posts fall within the terms of service.

 

[21merc7]

I'm really not sure why people are questioning the mom's blog posts now? I think most everybody said on here they wanted her to post different, post stuff faster, speed things up, put in this, answer this, or explain that. Even Tricia asked her if she would so mom could GET some help from the WSers. People even wanted a parent to post here....and they did.

The mom, IMO, has been more than accommodating to everybody's request. Sorry, I just don't understand. I really, really don't.

JMO

I see what you are saying.

I think us "complainers" thought we would be seeing more info on what happened. Any evidence that may be there. Not explaining how what we have said could have been. At least that is what I am saying. I can only speak for myself.

I also added all the help I can with what we know. The can take the info to the AG, the AG has to investigate allegations of incompetence, maybe not reopen the case though. If the AG can't help in that State, they will tell them who can. I also think they need to speak with and follow advice of an attorney.

I think everyone else has been helpful with the few images given. I don't have that knowledge, clearly.

 

[NancyA]

I'm really not sure why people are questioning the mom's blog posts now? I think most everybody said on here they wanted her to post different, post stuff faster, speed things up, put in this, answer this, or explain that. Even Tricia asked her if she would so mom could GET some help from the WSers. People even wanted a parent to post here....and they did.

The mom, IMO, has been more than accommodating to everybody's request. Sorry, I just don't understand. I really, really don't.

JMO

I meant to address this point yesterday when someone else brought it up, I forget who, but I was at work and had to leave it. The thing is, in my own defense and that of several other posters, we have questioned mom's posts all along not just now and more than once, ie long before yesterday, people have mentioned being troubled by the fact that mom appeared to be addressing what we were discussing here and, maybe unconsciously, modifying her own account accordingly.

I absolutely agree that she has been very accommodating and appreciate how difficult it must be for both her and M's dad to open up the way they have for us, you'll get no argument from me there.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Again, I absolutely suck at math and it makes my head hurt, so I have no doubt I'm wrong - I'm just trying to understand. I'm confused with the first conversion, as using this converter: http://www.convert-measurement-units.com/conversion-calculator.php?type=density I entered 7909 ng/ml and selected to convert to mg/l and it showed 7.909 mg/l, not 7909 mg/l. A matter of a decimal point, but the original conversion makes no sense because it's not actually converting anything if the answer is the same, right?

The next one I'm confused about is if we just converted it to milligrams per liter - that would mean 7.909 milligrams x 5 liters would actually equal 39.54 milligrams rather than grams, wouldn't it? This is probably where my mistake is, I probably just need the extra step how we got from milligrams to grams explained to me. Now, 39.54 milligrams in her system wouldn't be a lethal dose, however, if only 30% enters the blood stream (arrrrgh, percentages!), then wouldn't that mean, ugh, I'm going to use 25% because 1/4 is easier for me - if 25% were in her blood that would mean the total actual dose would be around 158 mg, which divided by 25 mg pills would actually be slightly over 6 pills. That's figuring 5% under the actual 30% because my math skills suck, and I didn't add in the amitriptyline that was already broken down to nortriptyline, but would imagine that would bump the total number of pills up by anywhere from 1 to 3 maybe? Still only equaling a total of possibly up to 10 actual pills of 25 mg of amitriptyline.

Ah, there it is, I think I just had a brain aneurysm. :banghead:

Anyway, I'm totally not trying to fight anyone over this, I just love to learn and this is really confusing me but I'm really trying hard to understand.

It's actually more accurate to look at concentrations from others who overdosed on amitriptyline and compare their values to Morgan's. In the paper I provided to Herding, the patients took overdoses of 1000 to 5000 mg, and the maximum value recorded for ami was about half of Morgan's value (4400 ng/mL).

Source:
Bengt-Ake Hulen, et al. AMITRIPTYLINE AND AMITRIPTYLINE METABOLITES IN BLOOD AND CEREBROSPINAL FLUID FOLLOWING HUMAN OVERDOSE. CLINICAL TOXICOLOGY, 30(2), 181-201 (1992). (sorry only the abstract is free online.)

I don't know how many pills Morgan would have had to have taken to get up to 7900, but the ballpark of 100 pills (2500 mg) seems a fair conservative guesstimate considering that is in the midrange of the article I used (which still was much lower exposure than what Morgan had).

The point of estimating at all was it was too many pills to end up with no pill fragments in her stomach. Even if one were to postulate that she obtained higher dose pills clandestinely, you should remember that the larger the mg pill strength, the larger the pill itself....there is more of the inert excipients in the higher strength pills...very bulky and nothing left behind of the pill fragments.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Delivery of 2.5-3 g of drug through a transdermal patch isnt going to happen, it is not practical. Whatever she ingested must have been oral for that amount. Not to mention that it would have taken a considerable length of time to absorb so much drug through that route - again not consistent with an acute response. Systemic delivery through transdermal absorbtion is poor compared to oral. The main advantage of transdermal delivery is that you can do it over a prolonged period.

The implication was that it was a transdermal dose sized for a 1200 mg horse, not a human. But I don't have any trouble at all with the theory that it was injected.

You are assuming that she was using her old supply of the drug.

No, I was trying to knock down the straw man that it was her old supply.

It is more likely that she got the drug from another source. She may have been using the higher strength tablets (possibly not realizing that they were in fact a different strength). Alternatively, she may have been using the pure compound (FYI, it costs about $7.50 per gram according to drugbank.ca). Drinking a solution of 2-3 g isn't that hard since it would dissolve in a glass of water. And if you didn't know that the usual tablet is mostly other stuff you could quickly be in a whole lot of trouble, since you would be taking a lot more than you would think you were taking. Especially if you were used to using the 10 mg tablets for example, which I assume is the form she would have been using as a child. The commercial tablet sizes are available from 10 mg doses all the way up to 150 mg. It is also available in solution form, which is used for injection but I guess someone could swallow as well.

Herding Cats disagrees that this would be easy to swallow. I question whether she could have gotten that down and kept it down....also whether she could access the bulk drug herself.

Other points, absorbtion is relatively fast, with maximum uptake at about 2 hours. She was probably alive a lot longer than 30 minutes after taking it, otherwise they would have found it in her stomach as well. The 30 minutes is probably your estimated survival time at that drug level, not how long it takes to achieve that level.

It was not my estimate, it was Dr. Doberson's (per mom). They did find it in her stomach, but I found a reference that postmortem redistrbution could occur to gastric contents from the blood even if it wasn't taken orally (lwww.utm.utoronto.ca/~w3fsc402/lectures/03_postmortem.ppt).

I don't believe Dr. Doberson ruled out injection.

 

[rollinginit]

I see what you are saying.

I think us "complainers" thought we would be seeing more info on what happened. Any evidence that may be there. Not explaining how what we have said could have been. At least that is what I am saying. I can only speak for myself.

I also added all the help I can with what we know. The can take the info to the AG, the AG has to investigate allegations of incompetence, maybe not reopen the case though. If the AG can't help in that State, they will tell them who can. I also think they need to speak with and follow advice of an attorney.

I think everyone else has been helpful with the few images given. I don't have that knowledge, clearly.

I really meant no snark in my post at all. Sorry if it sounded that way.

I was just trying to understand. I'm not sure there is anyway she could post that will convince people if they already have their mind set to discount her. (not saying you are) Mom did say in the interview that she didn't feel comfortable making the videos public, but she did seem up to the idea of showing a few people (I'm assuming MODS) the videos.

IMO, when I listened to mom, she just sounds like somebody that has had all these things scattered in her head and she's trying to put them all together in a nice order. JMO

Again, I am sorry about the post. I hope you didn't take it wrong b/c that was not my intent.